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What if trading for an allstar SG/SF meant trading Andrea?

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Post#21 » by ImissJordan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:04 pm

The Ballboy wrote:True, however part of the reason that teams SG/SF go off on us is b/c we dont' make the opposing SG/SF have to work on defense. Everyone knows exactly where Parker is gonna be on any given play. Sitting outside that 3 point arch and until Moon learns to consitantly hit that outside shot you can play so far off him you can double anyone else you choose on the floor. SG and SF dont' have to work to hard defensively when the opposing team (us) only runs pick roll all day long between the PG and PF.


Good point (one I made only a day or two ago :) ).
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Post#22 » by Teabag » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:06 pm

The Ballboy wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



True, however part of the reason that teams SG/SF go off on us is b/c we dont' make the opposing SG/SF have to work on defense. Everyone knows exactly where Parker is gonna be on any given play. Sitting outside that 3 point arch and until Moon learns to consitantly hit that outside shot you can play so far off him you can double anyone else you choose on the floor. SG and SF dont' have to work to hard defensively when the opposing team (us) only runs pick roll all day long between the PG and PF.


that's a great point ... when was the last time a PG went off on us? .. Bibby jacking 3's in his 1st game back? ... Farmar hitting open jumpers because of Kobe's greatness? ... even Nash had only 7pts against us, never mind the 16 assists and the ass smashing the rest of the team gave us ... the days of Tyron F'n Lue killing us seem to be gone and I'd have to say our PG's offense has to be a big part of that
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Post#23 » by dagger » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:11 pm

The Ballboy wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



True, however part of the reason that teams SG/SF go off on us is b/c we dont' make the opposing SG/SF have to work on defense. Everyone knows exactly where Parker is gonna be on any given play. Sitting outside that 3 point arch and until Moon learns to consitantly hit that outside shot you can play so far off him you can double anyone else you choose on the floor. SG and SF dont' have to work to hard defensively when the opposing team (us) only runs pick roll all day long between the PG and PF.


I simply don't buy that at all. Is that your explanation for why Al Thornton went off against us on Friday? Is that your explanation for why Manu Ginobili hardly missed a shot against us on Monday? I really don't think so. It could help on some occasions, but not as much as having quality defenders. We need a size upgrade on the wing, a defensive presence, and I think the draft can supply that since they tend to be rated for draft purposes for their offence, which means you can get a decent defender in the middle third of the draft.
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Post#24 » by onions17 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:11 pm

A couple of months ago most people would trade Bargnani for Trevor Ariza :nonono:
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Q00 wrote:When scoring over 100 pts and giving up under 100 pts, they are 11-0

Clearly defense is the difference between winning and losing for this team.
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Post#25 » by ImissJordan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:12 pm

dagger wrote:Size, shot alteration, the ability to pull opposing centres out of the paint with his three point shooting. A lot of good SF and SG are average defenders. We list the names of SF and SG we'd like, and nobody has the foggiest ideas of whether they play D. All we know is that they have numbers and hops. Posters claim to know what Bargnani's defensive ceiling is, but couldn't give you the slightest insight into the defensive capabilities of the players they'd trade him for because they don't watch them enough and defensive stats are even more misleading than offensive stats.

A lot of people would love to have Joe Johnson but I have to tell you, that for what he's paid, he comes up small on both sides of the ball.

And from what I've seen the past few weeks, we need a defensive upgrade on the wing more than we need an offensive upgrade.


Bargnani could potentially be a mismatch for opposing centre's, which is why I haven't given up on this experiment completely. However - and it's been said countless times before in a plethora of other threads - the most important position, defensively, is the 5. There certainly are a lot of SG/SF's in the league who are below average defenders, but isn't it more dangerous to have a centre who is defensively challenged?

Like supersub said in the OP, we need an upgrade at centre and on the wings.
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Post#26 » by dacrusha » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:16 pm

ImissJordan wrote:Bargnani may eventually become a 20/5/3 type of player, but I'd rather see those numbers come from a swingman instead of a big man. I'd trade him for an All-Star SG/SF and then begin our search for a defensive-minded, rebounding centre.


Of the 28 players in the league with a scoring average of 20+ PPG, 18 of them are SG/SF and ONLY 3 are centers.

If Bargs were projected as a 20PPG player, any GM would be looney to give up such a rare talent at the center position in exchange for a dime-a-dozen SG/SF.
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Post#27 » by ImissJordan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:17 pm

dagger wrote:I simply don't buy that at all. Is that your explanation for why Al Thornton went off against us on Friday? Is that your explanation for why Manu Ginobili hardly missed a shot against us on Monday? I really don't think so. It could help on some occasions, but not as much as having quality defenders. We need a size upgrade on the wing, a defensive presence, and I think the draft can supply that since they tend to be rated for draft purposes for their offence, which means you can get a decent defender in the middle third of the draft.


Weren't Moon/Delfino defensive upgrades for us? Isn't Parker supposed to be a competent defender? I'm not sure who can bring in at this point who can stop the Manu Ginobili's and Al Thornton's (lol) of the league, unless we plan on signing Ron Artest this summer (unlikely).
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Post#28 » by Shaazzam » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:18 pm

As anxious as I am for this team to upgrade the wings now, in contrast to the fact I've been one of the few preaching patience for the last year and a half, I still don't think you can move AB yet.

The only way I think we should make a major move right now is if we can steal someone. Yes, I know you have almost always have to give to get, but I would rather run the risk of being wrong about AB than dump him after a year and a half of play in the L. He has holes in his game, but there is no way I let this kid go until I see if and how he is going to develop physically. People question his instincts and motor, and I sometimes do as well, but this is his first season of starting. So even though his minutes are down, he is being placed in different situations with different responsibilities.

Yes, yes, silver linings and all that jazz, but he is really finding out where he is going to need to get to in order to compete. And the kid wants to compete, he's not a baby, but he is weak. He really needs more strength, and I have been adamant since we drafted him that he needs to be on an NBA training program for at least 2 years to get his body ready for the type of pounding he is going to take and needs to dish out.

I am not one of those people that always expects immediate results from players, because not very often are you going to see drastic improvements to a players skill set during a season. They will gain experience, which is a critical component, but the real hard work developing oneself is done in the offseason. And AB has only had one offseason, which was basically a write off, because of his commitment to the Italian team.

The core of this team is still quite young, and we will have more more assets come summertime and next season with our expiring deals. I'm don't think it's a good idea to remove an important asset whose worth is, in my mind, far from being determined yet. There are other avenues now and in the future that can be explored before something as drastic as moving a number 1 needs to be done.

The landscape has changed. It's become more and more apparent that raw talent is not always required to make a deal. Finances are equally important, and are our best asset in the next season or so. Additionally, like dagger said, we also have the draft this season, which could add another young piece to our team while we still have the vets like AP and Rasho to mentor them.

Many players in sports have had struggles in their second seasons. Once others get a handle on you, they respond and force you to show them something different. Well AB is getting that response to his game now.

The onus is now on him to put the work in this off season to counter.
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Post#29 » by El Presidente » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:20 pm

Kinda related and weird at the same time but Messiah has got something to say.

Is this guy banned or something? I kinda enjoyed his rants.
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Post#30 » by The Ballboy » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:20 pm

dagger wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I simply don't buy that at all. Is that your explanation for why Al Thornton went off against us on Friday? Is that your explanation for why Manu Ginobili hardly missed a shot against us on Monday? I really don't think so. It could help on some occasions, but not as much as having quality defenders. We need a size upgrade on the wing, a defensive presence, and I think the draft can supply that since they tend to be rated for draft purposes for their offence, which means you can get a decent defender in the middle third of the draft.


I don't recall saying the ONLY reason. I said PART of the reason is b/c they don't have to work on defense and If you don't get that you'd be able to spend all your energy on offense as opposed defense. Essentially being able to play half a game. Then you won't get it and I can't explain it to you.
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Post#31 » by ImissJordan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:20 pm

dacrusha wrote:Of the 28 players in the league with a scoring average of 20+ PPG, 18 of them are SG/SF and ONLY 3 are centers.

If Bargs were projected as a 20PPG player, any GM would be looney to give up such a rare talent at the center position in exchange for a dime-a-dozen SG/SF.


That does seem to make sense, which is why I'm hoping and praying that Bargnani can turn it around defensively and use his length to gobble up some freaking rebounds.

At this point, though, you have to ask yourself what good 20 points per game is if you're surrendering the same amount on the opposite end of the floor (due to second-chance points and failure to protect the paint).
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Post#32 » by ImissJordan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:23 pm

El Presidente wrote:Kinda related and weird at the same time but Messiah has got something to say.

Is this guy banned or something? I kinda enjoyed his rants.


Ha!

Well, if Messiah endorses the Bargnani-at-centre experiment then I suppose I must be in the wrong! :wink:
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Post#33 » by dacrusha » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:25 pm

El Presidente wrote:Kinda related and weird at the same time but Messiah has got something to say.

Is this guy banned or something? I kinda enjoyed his rants.


Funny enough, I agree with Messiah... this board went crazy this week about trying to obtain a soft, defensively challenged stat-padder in Corey Maggette.
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Post#34 » by ImissJordan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:29 pm

dacrusha wrote:Funny enough, I agree with Messiah... this board went crazy this week about trying to obtain a soft, defensively challenged stat-padder in Corey Maggette.


I would never in a million years trade Andrea for Maggette.
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Post#35 » by dacrusha » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:29 pm

ImissJordan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



That does seem to make sense, which is why I'm hoping and praying that Bargnani can turn it around defensively and use his length to gobble up some freaking rebounds.

At this point, though, you have to ask yourself what good 20 points per game is if you're surrendering the same amount on the opposite end of the floor (due to second-chance points and failure to protect the paint).


Bargs +/- this year has been outstanding... he is second on the team behind Bosh in +/- per minute, so the benefits he brings on offense surely outweigh the weaknesses he has on defense (as well, if you consider that he is having a fairly dreadful year on offense, his +/- numbers are even more poignant).
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Post#36 » by Shaazzam » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:30 pm

Ahh, the prodigal son.
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Post#37 » by ImissJordan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:33 pm

dacrusha wrote:Bargs +/- this year has been outstanding... he is second on the team behind Bosh in +/- per minute, so the benefits he brings on offense surely outweigh the weaknesses he has on defense (as well, if you consider that he is having a fairly dreadful year on offense, his +/- numbers are even more poignant).


That is actually a pretty telling statistic, and one I'm glad you shared.

However, I'm still apprehensive about Bosh/Bargnani being an effective duo defensively.
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Post#38 » by Fairview4Life » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:37 pm

ImissJordan wrote:That is actually a pretty telling statistic, and one I'm glad you shared.

However, I'm still apprehensive about Bosh/Bargnani being an effective duo defensively.


He was actually a - on court for the majority of the season, I believe. Only lately when his play returned to normal did his +/- skyrocket. He's been the top +/- guy on the team for the past few weeks. That kind of indicates the type of difference he can make, even at this 2nd year level we're seeing. In my opinion.
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Post#39 » by dagger » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:40 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



He was actually a - on court for the majority of the season, I believe. Only lately when his play returned to normal did his +/- skyrocket. He's been the top +/- guy on the team for the past few weeks. That kind of indicates the type of difference he can make, even at this 2nd year level we're seeing. In my opinion.


Agreed.

He will have his rough nights, but the trend is encouraging.

As for the offence makes good defence argument, why not stick (at least for the foreseeable future) with a C who can create defensive pressure on opposing C's? Why not make Dwight Howard or Andrew Bynum or Shaq work outside of their comfort area guarding a C who has offensive skills unlike anything they normally see?
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Post#40 » by ImissJordan » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:41 pm

Fairview4Life wrote:He was actually a - on court for the majority of the season, I believe. Only lately when his play returned to normal did his +/- skyrocket. He's been the top +/- guy on the team for the past few weeks. That kind of indicates the type of difference he can make, even at this 2nd year level we're seeing. In my opinion.


Oh man, I still believe that Bargnani can be a big time game-breaker. When he gets it going offensively he can blow a game wide open.

What has his +/- been the last few weeks, Fairview?

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