Andrea...now vs the future?

[Mr.Raptorsingh]

LieCheatSteal, I saw that too w/ Bosh blowin' up. Of course, I was watchin' on T.V. but to me it seemed like he was yelling at Moon, 'cause I think Moon was closest to that rebound. I know Andrea was there too, but Moon could've grabbed the rebound much more easily. But as far as your observation of Andrea on the bench...I agree, he does have that type of look on his face that makes it seem like he is totally lost. And BTW, was Bosh really being restrained from going after a player? He must've really been pissed.

[Kordic27]

Just got back from the Sixer-Raptor game in Philadelphia and let me say that whatever the Raps are trying to do with Bargs, it had better work or else Barg could turn out to be one of the worse #1 pick in any professional sport period.

Bargs was completely confused out there. His first foul was from overaggression on defense, the second was accidental with Evans running into Bargs' elbow and the third was VERY POOR footing.

Now, for the worse part. One, Barg has VERY SMALL hands in relation to the rest of him. So already, he's not going to be a good rebounder. Second, he's bigger than Bosh but not very defined. That might take time. Thirdly, his facial expressions while at the bench is NOT conducive to success. "Deer in the headlights", completely rattled, glass eyed. He's in trouble.

I also don't think his teammates are supporting him anymore either. There was one play where the ball hit the rim, bounced to the front of the rim and no Raptor was there. Bosh flipped out completely on the court. Then, at a time out, Bosh needed to be physically restraint by Martin (in his suit) to be stopped from going after a player. There were two players close to that loose rebound. One was Moon and the other was Bargs. I don't think he was going after Moon. Teammates at the bench also don't talk to him anymore. He sat next to Kapono the whole game and not one word was exchanged between the two. You would think Rasho would be there but he's not.

There's a real problem in Raptorland with Bargs. I personally think he's more suited for PF position. But, since Bosh is there, that's a big problem. So either be content that Bargs is going to be backup to Bosh or move him while he still has value. Although things can change in years to come (ie Bargs can fill out, learn his position, etc) but I hope he can improve. I seriously do.

BTW, wouldn't Dalembert look good next to Bosh or what?

The items of most concern for me from your report (thanks for it BTW)... I've heard that one Kwame's problems were his small hands as well (and these guys already have too much in common - namely sucking as #1 picks). And it's weird to her that guys don't talk to Andrea out there. I wonder why that is, and I would imagine that Pop Sow or Slokar chatted away with guys... so I'm thinking that it must be Bargs' personality? Shyness? Language Barrier?

Personally, I'm wondering if a miserable year would inspire Bargs to work like a dog over the summer to ensure he doesn't have another of the same.

And yes, Daly would look great next to Bosh.

[LieCheatSteal]

-= original quote snipped =-



Personally, I'm wondering if a miserable year would inspire Bargs to work like a dog over the summer to ensure he doesn't have another of the same.

I seriously doubt it because I don't think he knows what he's doing wrong. There seems to be a communication barrier between the coaches and players and Bargnani.

[Boogie!]

he's a different player when everyone believes in him. problem is, no one believes in him right now. not even himself. last year he only had one job which was to score and everyone was pissed when he didn't shoot. this year he's being asked to do things he's not used to and not good at so it's obviously gonna take some time for him to get better. yet, everyone expects him to be something he's not right now. he's not a typical centre so you can't expect him to be a good rebounder and inside presence right now. it's not a situation where he was brought in to do a certain thing and isn't doing it. he's developing. still, something's just not right with him right now but people need to be patient with him. he's proven he has talent, but he's not good at the things people WANT him to be good at. and that will take time. so the constant bargnani sucks, bargnani is a bust stuff needs to stop.

[reck0n3r]

BTW, wouldn't Dalembert look good next to Bosh or what?

Call me crazy but I'd seriously consider trading bargs for him, if your other statements are correct (about teammates also turning on him now). I feel bad for the guy. If that really truly is the case, I say ship him out and let him have a fresh start in a place where they can try to build around him.

[Boogie!]

-= original quote snipped =-



I seriously doubt it because I don't think he knows what he's doing wrong. There seems to be a communication barrier between the coaches and players and Bargnani.

commenting on your last paragraph, what kind of facial expression do you expect from someone sitting on the bench? if you look at all the people sitting on the bench, they pretty much have the same expressionless look, unless they're up cheering. as for the communication barrier, there's no question about it. the newspapers reported recently that mitchell didn't talk to him for a span of 3 weeks. bargnani was never a people person to begin with, but imagine what kind of atmosphere that sets with the rest of the team if the coach isn't even talking to you.

[ilikecb4]

Feel free to disagree, but I see Bargnani as a Toni Kukoc type player ... there would be nothing wrong with that, he can still be a major contributor ...

Bargniani is years away from Toni Kukoc..Kukoc was a straith out baller

he could shoot it off the dribble, spot up, he could drive the lane, his D wasn't very good, but the rest of his game including passing was very polished...

Bargniani HAS to figure out how he WANTS to play..

he looks unsure...last year when he was jacking those 3s, he looked better...

[reck0n3r]

-= original quote snipped =-



I seriously doubt it because I don't think he knows what he's doing wrong. There seems to be a communication barrier between the coaches and players and Bargnani.

Which is also something I previously suggested.

Thanks for your observations, btw.

I think it's gotten to the point where they need to make a big change that involves him. Either hire one of his previous italian coaches to be with him, or ..something, I don't know. It could very well be that bargs comes off as having a big attitude problem and his teammates (and especially coaches) don't like it. It sounds like exactly what you just said, that there seems to be a communication problem.

I bet he's really hindered by not having garbo around.

[El Presidente]

Imagine how solid we'd be if he gave us 18 and 8 every night like he was expected to coming into this year. I think what frustrates fans like me even more is that you don't see the effort or intensity from him despite his struggles. Based on his demeanor and play, it almost looks like he's not even bothered by his struggles.

[AB_21]

My big question is why in the world isn't he playing during garbage time. That game against Detroit....you weren't going to win it. What use is it to have Juan Dixon in the game. Just put Bargs in a let him foul out. I really don't care.

[El Presidente]

My big question is why in the world isn't he playing during garbage time. That game against Detroit....you weren't going to win it. What use is it to have Juan Dixon in the game. Just put Bargs in a let him foul out. I really don't care.

I'm not making an excuse for Bargnani because he should learn the basic rules about hand-checking and body contact and avoid picking up silly fouls. It's his fault that he's not in the game, not Sam's. But, I think it's come to the point where you play Bargnani until he fouls out because things can't get any worse.

I'm not willing to buy the theory that Sam's pulling of Bargnani after fouls is throwing him out of rhythm and that's the reason he's struggling because it's not, but we're desperate to find a remedy for him and if uninterrupted playing time is the answer, try it.

[Boogie!]

Imagine how solid we'd be if he gave us 18 and 8 every night like he was expected to coming into this year. I think what frustrates fans like me even more is that you don't see the effort or intensity from him despite his struggles. Based on his demeanor and play, it almost looks like he's not even bothered by his struggles.

this is the problem. expected to from who? the team? it was all the realgmers who expected this from him. and now that he isn't giving them the unrealistic expectations that they wanted, he needs to be traded. colangelo said from the beginning that he needed some time to develop. it just so happens that last year he was able to score a bit, so all the fans hopped on the bandwagon. but he was never a good rebounder from the beginning, not to mention he played a lot of pf and even some sf last year and people expected him to average 8 rpg this year along with 18 points? those are borderline all-star numbers from a player in his second year, who the gm said to be patient with from the beginning. none of moon, humphries and rasho are even averaging more than 6 and a half boards, and they're much better rebounders than bargnani.

[dagger]

Something has to be changed, because he starts off with a three point shot made - a nice swish - and nobody built on it. A couple of plays later he establishes nice, deep post-up position and doesn't get the ball. The thing is, on offence, he needs a defined role, a place to rotate to where, if open, he will get shots, just as Rasho gets his baseline jumper. Being a floater, setting picks, helping move the ball around, won't get him in a rhythm. He wasn't bad in his first quarter play. We had a lead when he got his second foul. But only had the one shot. I understand when he's 2-13 that teammates might not give him the ball, but not when he's getting 1-2 shots per game. Bosh is playing so well, and demanding the ball so much (which is good), that it's hard to see Bargnani getting his offence on track unless there is some affirmative action.

[99 Problems]

Its all mental with him at this point... I agree with the OP, finish this stupid experiment and try to get him in full gear for next year.. Anything we get from him this season is a bonus anyway...


Lets just hope he's able to get some confidence back and maybe show some emotion next year:

[El Presidente]

-= original quote snipped =-



this is the problem. expected to from who? the team? it was all the realgmers who expected this from him. and now that he isn't giving them the unrealistic expectations that they wanted, he needs to be traded. colangelo said from the beginning that he needed some time to develop. it just so happens that last year he was able to score a bit, so all the fans hopped on the bandwagon. but he was never a good rebounder from the beginning, not to mention he played a lot of pf and even some sf last year and people expected him to average 8 rpg this year along with 18 points? those are borderline all-star numbers from a player in his second year, who the gm said to be patient with from the beginning. none of moon, humphries and rasho are even averaging more than 6 and a half boards, and they're much better rebounders than bargnani.

Easy there, nobody's hoping on bandwagons. That word is being thrown out a little too often around here.

He averaged 11.6 and 4 rebounds last year in 25 minutes. Maybe a 4 rebound jump is a little too much but a lot of the fans reasonably expected that once he was in the starting lineup and got extended minutes a 5-6 point increase in his scoring wasn't too much to ask (not related by Aldridge jumped 9 points).

Personally, I was expecting him to come out blazing in the effort category and that alone would've gotten him around 2-3 boards just based on his size. I was expecting around 16 points on a consistent basis and 18 if he had a great year. What do you mean by "unrealistic expectations"? You obviously can't be saying that Bargnani's current performance is to be expected so let me ask you, what did you hope/expect his output to be coming into this season given increased minutes from last year?

[Boogie!]

[quote="El Presidente"][/quote]

lol at nobody's hopping on bandwagons. last year everyone was on bargnani's balls and this year a whole influx of posters have come out declaring him a bust. if this isn't bandwagon hopping idk what is. obviously no one expected him to play like crap. but please list all the players averaging 18 and 8 and tell me if bargnani really was supposed to be in that category this year. 14 and 6 would've been more realistic expectations for this year.

[El Presidente]

-= original quote snipped =-



lol at nobody's hopping on bandwagons. last year everyone was on bargnani's balls and this year a whole influx of posters have come out declaring him a bust. if this isn't bandwagon hopping idk what is. obviously no one expected him to play like crap. but please list all the players averaging 18 and 8 and tell me if bargnani really was supposed to be in that category this year. 14 and 6 would've been more realistic expectations for this year.

Well, let me clear that: I wasn't jumping on bandwagons. I just gave you an example of a player in the same class as him, playing a similar position as him averaging 18+. Your estimate is pessimistic while mine is optimistic, there's a middle ground somewhere in there which is probably more reasonable.

However, you're missing the point and getting caught up in numbers. What I'm trying to say is that if he had actually performed up to expectations (even yours), we'd be a much better team and also wouldn't have to rotate him out of the lineup so often causing a ripple effect that ultimately affects and weakens the second unit.

PS: What's up with the green font?

[reck0n3r]

-= original quote snipped =-



lol at nobody's hopping on bandwagons. last year everyone was on bargnani's balls and this year a whole influx of posters have come out declaring him a bust. if this isn't bandwagon hopping idk what is. obviously no one expected him to play like crap. but please list all the players averaging 18 and 8 and tell me if bargnani really was supposed to be in that category this year. 14 and 6 would've been more realistic expectations for this year.

Well taking into consideration that he was 14.9/5 or 6 already in the 2nd half of last season, 16/6-17/6 was a very realistic prognostication.

[reck0n3r]

-= original quote snipped =-



Well, let me clear that: I wasn't jumping on bandwagons. I just gave you an example of a player in the same class as him, playing a similar position as him averaging 18+. Your estimate is pessimistic while mine is optimistic, there's a middle ground somewhere in there which is probably more reasonable.

However, you're missing the point and getting caught up in numbers. What I'm trying to say is that if he had actually performed up to expectations (even yours), we'd be a much better team and also wouldn't have to rotate him out of the lineup so often causing a ripple effect that ultimately affects and weakens the second unit.

PS: What's up with the green font?

I think you're missing the point in that there's bigger problems than simply chalking it up to 'he's not performing'.

[Boogie!]

-= original quote snipped =-



Well, let me clear that: I wasn't jumping on bandwagons. I just gave you an example of a player in the same class as him, playing a similar position as him averaging 18+. Your estimate is pessimistic while mine is optimistic, there's a middle ground somewhere in there which is probably more reasonable.

However, you're missing the point and getting caught up in numbers. What I'm trying to say is that if he had actually performed up to expectations (even yours), we'd be a much better team and also wouldn't have to rotate him out of the lineup so often causing a ripple effect that ultimately affects and weakens the second unit.

PS: What's up with the green font?

i was never caught up in numbers. i was trying to make people calm down and be patient with bargnani. i think expectations are part of the reason why so many people are hating and the hating bothers me. at the same time, you gave me someone who from the same class, not someone who's averaging 18/8. but like somewhatdamaged explained, it's more than just bargnani sucks and isn't playing good. there's a legimitate problem mentally. he's not the same guy in those pictures above. he's the exact opposite right now. i just want him to start playing better so people shuttup.