Rank these players offensively (peak): Magic, Jordan, LeBron, Curry, Jokic

[jalengreen]

To the best of your ability

[Dutchball97]

If I'm honest the only one I'm kind of confident on is Curry being 5th as I don't think his game translates as well to the play-offs as the others. I'd then probably put Jokic 4th for now, the way he controls games so consistently is amazing to watch but his transition offense might just put him slightly below the top 3 here. Maybe I could place him higher when we're a bit further removed from his peak and have had the time to properly analyze him in context.

The top 3 especially are pretty interchangable and I'd probably give different answers on different days between them. Most impact signals tend to have Magic as the best offensive player and considering how his game was still evolving at the time of his first retirement and how impactful he was overall with pretty mediocre defense I'm willing to give him the nod for first. Jordan and LeBron have been debated to death and beyond and could go either way but to people who know me it shouldn't be too surprising I slightly prefer Jordan here, so:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. LeBron
4. Jokic
5. Curry

[Djoker]

I'm considering a mix of box score, impact stats, team offenses and portability.

1. Jordan. Easy choice to be honest. His case for offensive GOAT has no weaknesses. Best box score, arguably best impact stats, led historic team offenses with good but not overwhelming support, and a very portable player thanks to elite shooting.

2. Curry. If this list was only regular season, I would have Curry first even ahead of MJ but he loses a bit in the playoffs both on an individual and team level. He is the most portable player ever and can fit playing alongside literally any style of star player or team offense. Probably the most dangerous player off-ball in NBA history with his gravity giving teammates open looks as he nudges defenders towards his orbit.

3. Magic. He has insane impact stats but it's hard to overlook the really strong supporting casts. Magic did "drive" the offense but if he was the engine then old Kareem was still the wheels. Magic's impact is also entirely limited to on-ball situations so as soon as another player has the ball, Magic does very little to move the needle.

4. Lebron. Like Magic, Lebron is very heliocentric and needs the ball in his hands to be effective and thus you're kind of limited in terms of offense that you can run i.e. surround with shooters and rim finishers. Honestly he and Magic are debatable but Magic has a slightly better track record running high level offenses to me, both in the regular season and in the playoffs against the strongest opposition where Lebron's teams have looked fragile at times.

5. Jokic. I put him last for the time being because he still has a lot to prove. He's still literally in the middle of his prime so we don't have large samples of playoff data to judge him on yet.

[lessthanjake]

This is genuinely difficult and I basically change my mind every time I think about it.

I think if I had to rank them right now, it’d go like this:

1. Jokic
2. Jordan
3. Magic
4. Curry
5. LeBron

To me, the eye test on Jokic is the best I’ve ever seen. And as a factual matter we’ve never seen an NBA offense run as efficiently with their star on the floor as the 2022-2023 Nuggets did with Jokic on the floor (though obviously era differences are a massive part of that). He’s early enough in his career that he’s not proven himself offensively for as long of a timeframe as the others, so putting him much lower could easily be justified on that basis. But to me he just looks like the best.

The Jordan/Magic/Curry bunch after that is a hard one for me to rank. Their brands of offense are very unique from each other so it’s hard to compare. I put Jordan at the top of this group because I think his offensive game probably had the most playoff resilience of the three. And I put Magic above Curry for similar reasons, I guess, but I waffle on this and don’t actually feel strongly about it at all.

LeBron goes at the bottom for me. I don’t think he scaled up well with other high-level offensive talent, which limited the ceiling of his offenses below that of these other players, IMO. I think one can try to refute that by looking at some small-sample-size playoff offense data, but the flip side is that you can also find some real playoff stinkers from LeBron, so I think that’s not exactly convincing overall (though I do really like 2016-2018 LeBron offensively). More generally, as Djoker said, LeBron’s teams just felt more fragile at times. I’ve watched LeBron for his entire career, and I rooted for him much more often than I’ve rooted against him (I’ve rooted for LeBron in every single playoff series he’s ever been in, except when he’s faced Steph or Jokic). And his offense just didn’t tend to give me the type of full confidence rooting for his teams that these other guys gave me (except maybe Curry—who also has felt a little bit flimsy to me at times, with supernova periods largely papering over it). That’s inherently a subjective feeling, but this is a subjective exercise.

One thing I’d note is that if this thread included Steve Nash, he’d go right to the top of the list for me, either ahead or alongside Jokic. Nash and Jokic are the two offensive players I’ve had the most confidence in.

[AEnigma]

Lebron has run the best playoff offences of anyone in this group, and done so with the most varied rosters. Unreal.

[rk2023]

Magic
Jokic
Bron (Either 2013/14, or 2017/18)
Jordan
Curry

[letskissbro]

Spoiler:

Warned for trolling - CF

[lessthanjake]

Spoiler:

That misses quite a lot of things, and gets a lot of things wrong:

1. LeBron did not have 28 inflation-adjusted points per 75 possessions in 2017. As per Thinking Basketball, LeBron had 26.5 and Jokic just had 28.4.

2. Inflation-adjusted assists are not a stat that people generally discuss. But even if we did, the numbers there aren’t really right. Using Basketball-Reference data, we can look at league pace and league minutes to get the average number of possessions teams had, and then look at the average total number of assists and derive the league’s number of assists per 100 (or 75) possessions. In 2016-2017, it was 23.31, while it was 26.92 in 2023-2024. We can then look at the assists per 100 possessions for these players according to BBREF data—which was 11.5 for LeBron that season and 14.3 for Jokic this season. If we adjust for the higher number of assists in 2023-2024 and put it in per-75-possession terms instead, we get 9.96 for LeBron and 10.73 for Jokic. So it’s more like 10 for LeBron and 11 for Jokic, not 10 for both.

3. Obviously peoples’ assessment of things isn’t just based on one season, so while we are talking about 112 TS+ for both, the graphic is comparing Jokic’s TS+ low-point in this era to LeBron’s TS+ high-point in that era (he got higher in his Miami years, but not in the second-stint Cleveland years that you’re referring to here—and that probably was his offensive peak overall, at least in my opinion, as I’ve already noted in this thread). Jokic’s previous few years had even higher 121, 117, and 113 TS+. It’s also worth noting that TS+ is a good measure, but it is naturally easier to rack up high values in less efficient eras, since the denominator is smaller. If we looked at rTS% instead, LeBron had a +6.7 rTS% in 2016-2017 and Jokic had a +8.5 rTS% this past season (and note that it was +12.0 rTS% in 2022-2023, +9.5 rTS% in 2021-2022, and +7.5 rTS% in 2020-2021).

4. This graphic ignores a lot of what Jokic does offensively. For instance, it ignores Jokic’s great offensive rebounding. It ignores that he has a big body and is an elite screener.

5. Relatedly, it ignores the difference in time on the ball. Jokic has averaged between 4.3 and 4.8 minutes on the ball per game, in the last four seasons. LeBron averaged 6.4 minutes on the ball per game in the 2016-2017 season. So we have Jokic producing more points and assists with notably less time on the ball. Granted, I don’t think we should measure players on output per minute on the ball, but it does genuinely get to something great about Jokic. He makes incredibly quick decisions with the ball, so him trying to do something doesn’t take a lot of time, leaving more time for his teammates (or Jokic himself) to try something else if it doesn’t work. This is a really big deal! Quick decision-making basically gives the offense more at-bats on each possession—which is enormously consequential. And it also allows teammates to get into a rhythm because they see the ball more (which is fine for Jokic, since he does great work off the ball, including the aforementioned screening, but also off-ball cuts and whatnot). Jokic having similar or greater output with less of the ball is a big positive, and gets to a huge aspect of why my eye test is so high on Jokic.

All that said, as I said, I really like 2016-2018 LeBron offensively. I think it was his best era offensively, and on its own is competitive with people I listed above him.

[Jaqua92]

1. Jordan
2. Jokic
3. LeBron
4. Curry
5. Magic

[letskissbro]

That misses quite a lot of things, and gets a lot of things wrong:

1. LeBron did not have 28 inflation-adjusted points per 75 possessions in 2017. As per Thinking Basketball, LeBron had 26.5 and Jokic just had 28.4.

Ben's numbers are adjusted to the 2019-20 season. These numbers are adjusted to 2023-24.

Calculation:
LeBron: (pts/100 * 75/100 possessions) * (2024 ORtg / 2017 ORtg) -> (34.9 * 0.75) * (115.3 / 108.8) = 27.7 IA pts/75
Jokic: pts/100 * 75/100 possessions -> 37.8 * 75/100 = 28.4 pts/75

What you did was compare LeBron's 2020 IA numbers to Jokic's unadjusted 2024 numbers. Offensive rating has increased by 5 points in just the last 4 years.

2. Inflation-adjusted assists are not a stat that people generally discuss. But even if we did, the numbers there aren’t really right. Using Basketball-Reference data, we can look at league pace and league minutes to get the average number of possessions teams had, and then look at the average total number of assists and derive the league’s number of assists per 100 (or 75) possessions. In 2016-2017, it was 23.31, while it was 26.92. We can then look at the assists per 100 possessions for these players according to BBREF data—which was 11.5 for LeBron that season and 14.3 for Jokic this season. If we adjust for the higher number of assists in 2023-2024 and put it in per-75-possession terms instead, we get 9.96 for LeBron and 10.73 for Jokic. So it’s more like 10 for LeBron and 11 for Jokic, not 10 for both.

The same rationale for using inflation adjusting points applies to assists. Teams score more nowadays so there are more assists to go around.

Calculation:

LeBron: (ast/100 * 75/100 possessions) * (2024 team avg ast100/ 2017 team avg ast100) -> (11.4 * 0.75) * (26.92 / 23.31) = 9.9 IA ast/75
Jokic: ast/100 * 75/100 possessions -> 12.8 * 75/100 = 9.6 ast/75

Again, my numbers are correct, yours are off. Going to the hundreds place is a whole lot of nickel and diming for a meme. The 14.3 figure you got for Jokic is from 2023.

I'll respond to the rest later. I'm busy studying for a final right now.

[GSP]

Steph is easily last by far worst playoff performer of this group

the others is tough tho.......

[lessthanjake]

That misses quite a lot of things, and gets a lot of things wrong:

1. LeBron did not have 28 inflation-adjusted points per 75 possessions in 2017. As per Thinking Basketball, LeBron had 26.5 and Jokic just had 28.4.

Ben's numbers are adjusted to the 2019-20 season. These numbers are adjusted to 2023-24.

Calculation:
LeBron: (pts/100 * 75/100 possessions) * (2024 ORtg / 2017 ORtg) -> (34.9 * 0.75) * (115.3 / 108.8) = 27.7 IA pts/75
Jokic: pts/100 * 75/100 possessions -> 37.8 * 75/100 = 28.4 pts/75

What you did was compare LeBron's 2020 IA numbers to Jokic's unadjusted 2024 numbers. Offensive rating has increased by 5 points in just the last 4 years.

2. Inflation-adjusted assists are not a stat that people generally discuss. But even if we did, the numbers there aren’t really right. Using Basketball-Reference data, we can look at league pace and league minutes to get the average number of possessions teams had, and then look at the average total number of assists and derive the league’s number of assists per 100 (or 75) possessions. In 2016-2017, it was 23.31, while it was 26.92. We can then look at the assists per 100 possessions for these players according to BBREF data—which was 11.5 for LeBron that season and 14.3 for Jokic this season. If we adjust for the higher number of assists in 2023-2024 and put it in per-75-possession terms instead, we get 9.96 for LeBron and 10.73 for Jokic. So it’s more like 10 for LeBron and 11 for Jokic, not 10 for both.

The same rationale for using inflation adjusting points applies to assists. Teams score more nowadays so there are more assists to go around.

Calculation:

LeBron: (ast/100 * 75/100 possessions) * (2024 ORtg / 2017 ORtg) -> (11.4 * 0.75) * (26.92 / 23.31) = 9.9 IA ast/75
Jokic: ast/100 * 75/100 possessions -> 12.8 * 75/100 = 9.6 ast/75

Again, my numbers are correct, yours are off. Going to the hundreds place is a whole lot of nickel and diming for a meme. The 14.3 figure you got for Jokic is from 2023.

I'll respond to the rest later. I'm busy studying for a final right now.

Those are good corrections. Definitely my mistake on using the 2023 assists number in my calculation instead of 2024 (though I note that Jokic’s 2023 numbers are certainly relevant to this thread too!). I think these corrections essentially do away with my first two points, but the next three were the more important ones anyways, since even if they had been correct, the first two were, as you say, largely just “nickel and diming” on the numbers, while the other points go to more substantive things.

[SNPA]

To the best of your ability

What era?

[LukaTheGOAT]

In terms of single-year peaks:

Lebron
MJ
Jokic
Magic
Curry

Anyways in 1997-2024 Playoff Only RAPM, Lebron ranks #1 in ORAPM and #1 overall RAPM.

Of course, that is spanning some players whole careers, but given that Lebron played in various eras, and was successful in them, I think highlights his brilliance (mentally), while also how devastating athletically he can be in certain situations. I think a larger sample probably assists in adding confidence in just how good his peak was (what was his offensive peak?) and suggests he can play various ways to generate that impact.

If you do single year-peak, I think you could argue he has the best scoring peak, and playmaking peak for a single PS run. If you do a multi-year sample, then I think he has the 2nd best scoring performance among these guys relative to era, and still has a fair argument as a top 2 playmaker.

In terms of prime, Jokic probably will have the most consistent offensive prime with the way he plays.

[capfan33]

Magic
Jokic
Lebron
MJ
Curry

[1993Playoffs]

yeah I agree that Curry is last by default here , clearly the worst playoffs performer

others are basically splitting hairs,

[TheGOATRises007]

I would put Curry last. I do think the others are splitting hairs somewhat.

[Colbinii]

LeBron
Jokic
Magic
Curry
Jordan

[The-Power]

Curry's game is higher variance and I can certainly see the case for him being a less resilient performer on offense overall compared to the others here. But I don't see him clearly outclassed in a peak-for-peak comparison (2017 or 2022 in Curry's case, depending on what you value) by anyone, even for the playoffs.

[Djoker]

This is genuinely difficult and I basically change my mind every time I think about it.

I think if I had to rank them right now, it’d go like this:

1. Jokic
2. Jordan
3. Magic
4. Curry
5. LeBron

To me, the eye test on Jokic is the best I’ve ever seen. And as a factual matter we’ve never seen an NBA offense run as efficiently with their star on the floor as the 2022-2023 Nuggets did with Jokic on the floor (though obviously era differences are a massive part of that). He’s early enough in his career that he’s not proven himself offensively for as long of a timeframe as the others, so putting him much lower could easily be justified on that basis. But to me he just looks like the best.

The Jordan/Magic/Curry bunch after that is a hard one for me to rank. Their brands of offense are very unique from each other so it’s hard to compare. I put Jordan at the top of this group because I think his offensive game probably had the most playoff resilience of the three. And I put Magic above Curry for similar reasons, I guess, but I waffle on this and don’t actually feel strongly about it at all.

LeBron goes at the bottom for me. I don’t think he scaled up well with other high-level offensive talent, which limited the ceiling of his offenses below that of these other players, IMO. I think one can try to refute that by looking at some small-sample-size playoff offense data, but the flip side is that you can also find some real playoff stinkers from LeBron, so I think that’s not exactly convincing overall (though I do really like 2016-2018 LeBron offensively). More generally, as Djoker said, LeBron’s teams just felt more fragile at times. I’ve watched LeBron for his entire career, and I rooted for him much more often than I’ve rooted against him (I’ve rooted for LeBron in every single playoff series he’s ever been in, except when he’s faced Steph or Jokic). And his offense just didn’t tend to give me the type of full confidence rooting for his teams that these other guys gave me (except maybe Curry—who also has felt a little bit flimsy to me at times, with supernova periods largely papering over it). That’s inherently a subjective feeling, but this is a subjective exercise.

One thing I’d note is that if this thread included Steve Nash, he’d go right to the top of the list for me, either ahead or alongside Jokic. Nash and Jokic are the two offensive players I’ve had the most confidence in.

Regarding Lebron's teams' fragility offensively, here is some evidence.

Although I'm putting myself in danger of starting yet another nuclear war, I posted before that Lebron's minor edge in postseason offenses is heavily boosted by the weak opposition. Against good teams in the Finals, his team offenses have often faltered.

Lebron - Team rORtg in the NBA Finals

2007: -2.7
2011: +2.9
2012: +11.9
2013: +6.9
2014: +2.4
2015: -1.8
2016: +5.3
2017: +10.6
2018: +0.9
2020: +8.6

Average: +4.5

Jordan - Team rORtg in the NBA Finals

1991: +10.7
1991: +6.6
1993: +6.3
1996: +9.2
1997: +0.6
1998: +0.1

Average: +5.6

Magic - Team rORtg in the NBA Finals

1980: +5.9
1982: +4.6
1983: -1.2
1984: +7.6
1985: +6.0
1987: +11.6
1988: +3.6
1989: +6.4
1991: -0.7

Average: +4.9

Curry - Team rORtg in the Finals

2015: +1.0
2016: +4.0
2017: +11.0
2018: +12.7
2019: +3.0
2022: +3.9

Average: +5.9

So Lebron's teams have worst offenses in the NBA Finals.

And going beyond the numbers, I'd argue that rORtg actually flatters Lebron's teams because they completely collapsed defensively in the 2014, 2017 and 2018 Finals and even in the 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2020 Finals, their defense underperformed. They basically played offensively slanted lineups/tactics and emphasized offense at the expense of defense. This isn't a thread on defense but Lebron's teams also have the worst defenses in the Finals on this list and it's not even close.

And if we broaden the scope to include other strong opponents that Lebron faced in his own conference (ex. 2006 Pistons, 2008 Celtics, 2009 Magic, 2010 Celtics, 2021 Suns, 2023 Nuggets), it doesn't get much better with only the Orlando series in 2009 being good offensively. Basically Lebron's impressive team rORtg numbers in the postseason are inflated by romps against weak opposition but don't hold up to scrutiny.

Obviously some of these series including the Finals are outside of his peak years but that's true for other players as well. It just goes to the pattern of Lebron's teams underperforming against elite opposition.