2013 Kobe vs 2024 LeBron on Offense?

[rk2023]

Who was better / more impactful / so on? I think Kobe probably had more of a load to shoulder all things considered, with LBJ being the better playmaker (likely scorer too). Still is a pretty different - apples:oranges - comparison with how basketball has changed over 11 years, so I’m unsure what to think (they’re probably similar caliber more or less?)

[The Master]

Kobe was +3 on/off on +1.5 SRS team with 8th BPM in the league.

LeBron is +10 on/off on +1.1 SRS team with 7th BPM in the league.

I believe that nowadays the league is more stacked talent-wise.

LeBron is a better defender, off-ball player in contemporary offenses (his spot up shooting is crazy) and creator, so he can play in more energy conserving way in his twilight years, I guess that's the main difference re: impact numbers.

The difference wouldn't be big though as LeBron since ~February is in much more fortunate position than Kobe was: role players playing well (D'Lo) vs Kobe single-handedly running Lakers' offense. But yeah, as long as LeBron is able to hit spot up 3s with >40% clip on high volume, he scales pretty amazingly under any circumstances.

[VanWest82]

The thing that never gets brought up with 2013 Kobe is how he had to guard POA from the moment Nash came back all the way through his achilles injury. Lakers played two bigs which meant Kobe was fighting over screens all game.

I bring this up because the difference in amount of energy expended isn't remotely close, and that's before we get into difference in games played. The two way load these two players carried isn't remotely close. Also, worth noting that Kobe played PG that year too even when Nash came back.

Edit: to highlight the load difference

Kobe: 3013 mins, 2133 points, 433 rebounds, 469 assists, 106 steals, 287 turnovers
Lebron: 2390 mins, 1724 points, 491 rebounds, 556 assists, 80 steals, 229 turnovers

Lakers season isn't done yet but Lebron only has 3-4 games left.

[IG2]

The thing that never gets brought up with 2013 Kobe is how he had to guard POA from the moment Nash came back all the way through his achilles injury. Lakers played two bigs which meant Kobe was fighting over screens all game.

I bring this up because the difference in amount of energy expended isn't remotely close, and that's before we get into difference in games played. The two way load these two players carried isn't remotely close. Also, worth noting that Kobe played PG that year too even when Nash came back.

2 way load? GTFOH . Lakers were 4.3 points worse defensively with Kobe on-court that season, by far the WORST of any rotation player on the team (nobody else is even within 2 points of him). That's also with 3 starters in Dwight, Pau and Artest all being net+ defenders that season. 2013 Kobe is renowned for playing 0 defense. I don't know why someone would make an argument in favor of his 2-way effort that year. Even your LeBron-hating troll self is better than this.

[VanWest82]

The thing that never gets brought up with 2013 Kobe is how he had to guard POA from the moment Nash came back all the way through his achilles injury. Lakers played two bigs which meant Kobe was fighting over screens all game.

I bring this up because the difference in amount of energy expended isn't remotely close, and that's before we get into difference in games played. The two way load these two players carried isn't remotely close. Also, worth noting that Kobe played PG that year too even when Nash came back.

2 way load? GTFOH . Lakers were 4.3 points worse defensively with Kobe on-court that season, by far the WORST of any rotation player on the team (nobody else is even within 2 points of him). That's also with 3 starters in Dwight, Pau and Artest all being net+ defenders that season. 2013 Kobe is renowned for playing 0 defense. I don't know why someone would make an argument in favor of his 2-way effort that year. Even your LeBron-hating troll self is better than this.

I don't think you know what load means. I watched all those games. Nash really struggled when he came back. Lakers had been playing Chris Duhon with Nash out, but when he came back Kobe got stuck guarding the other team's leading ball handler night after night while also playing PG because Nash couldn't beat anyone off the dribble anymore.

You can criticize Kobe for the results, somewhat unfairly imo, but he took that challenge. How many guys over the years have been both their team's lead ball handler, #1 option, and main defender at the point of attack for 38 mpg, averaging 27/6/5, let alone at 34? None? I recall Chris Paul used to do that in his prime though he wasn't taking 20+ shots. MJ did that in 89 for three straight months.

Also, calling Pau a net plus defender that year next to Dwight is nonsense. He was a fish out of water on the perimeter that entire season. Clearly, you didn't watch any of the games.

[tsherkin]

Also, calling Pau a net plus defender that year next to Dwight is nonsense. He was a fish out of water on the perimeter that entire season. Clearly, you didn't watch any of the games.

He meant in a literal, statistical sense.

[IG2]

I don't think you know what load means. I watched all those games.

I'm a yearly league pass subscriber and watched most Laker games too. I don't care who Kobe guarded, his actual defensive effort was straight up garbage that season and the numbers bear it out. Kobe as he got older was often the ultimate poser too. He would press up on the lead ball handler 40 feet from the basket, only to either get blown by or screened off easily. But he liked the optics of pressing up that far from the basket (omg look at Kobe D up!!!!1). It was nonsense though.

Also, calling Pau a net plus defender that year next to Dwight is nonsense.

Kobe was next to Dwight too. Why was he so heavily in the negatives when 3 Laker starters (Dwight, Pau, ARtest) were well into the positives. Let's be real, Kobe stopped playing defense years before 2013 and that wasn't going to suddenly change at the age of 34 while having his highest offensive load since the age of 28.

[VanWest82]

I don't think you know what load means. I watched all those games.

I'm a yearly league pass subscriber and watched most Laker games too. I don't care who Kobe guarded, his actual defensive effort was straight up garbage that season and the numbers bear it out. Kobe as he got older was often the ultimate poser too. He would press up on the lead ball handler 40 feet from the basket, only to either get blown by or screened off easily. But he liked the optics of pressing up that far from the basket (omg look at Kobe D up!!!!1). It was nonsense though.

Also, calling Pau a net plus defender that year next to Dwight is nonsense.

Kobe was next to Dwight too. Why was he so heavily in the negatives when 3 Laker starters (Dwight, Pau, ARtest) were well into the positives. Let's be real, Kobe stopped playing defense years before 2013 and that wasn't going to suddenly change at the age of 34 while having his highest offensive load since the age of 28.

I don't know what else to tell you. The guy I watched tried. He didn't have it a lot of nights because no one takes on that challenge, and so yeah, the results weren't always great. My entire point was that it probably isn't fair to compare these seasons for that reason. Lebron doesn't have anywhere near that kind of physical responsibility on Lakers defense, and frankly he's never had to guard POA for basically an entire season. Chasing ball handlers around is hard work!

[Tim Lehrbach]

I don't think you know what load means. I watched all those games.

I'm a yearly league pass subscriber and watched most Laker games too. I don't care who Kobe guarded, his actual defensive effort was straight up garbage that season and the numbers bear it out. Kobe as he got older was often the ultimate poser too. He would press up on the lead ball handler 40 feet from the basket, only to either get blown by or screened off easily. But he liked the optics of pressing up that far from the basket (omg look at Kobe D up!!!!1). It was nonsense though.

Also, calling Pau a net plus defender that year next to Dwight is nonsense.

Kobe was next to Dwight too. Why was he so heavily in the negatives when 3 Laker starters (Dwight, Pau, ARtest) were well into the positives. Let's be real, Kobe stopped playing defense years before 2013 and that wasn't going to suddenly change at the age of 34 while having his highest offensive load since the age of 28.

I don't know what else to tell you. The guy I watched tried. He didn't have it a lot of nights because no one takes on that challenge, and so yeah, the results weren't always great. My entire point was that it probably isn't fair to compare these seasons for that reason. Lebron doesn't have anywhere near that kind of physical responsibility on Lakers defense, and frankly he's never had to guard POA for basically an entire season. Chasing ball handlers around is hard work!

I'm curious what you believe to be the answer to this thread's question.

[capfan33]

I don't think you know what load means. I watched all those games.

I'm a yearly league pass subscriber and watched most Laker games too. I don't care who Kobe guarded, his actual defensive effort was straight up garbage that season and the numbers bear it out. Kobe as he got older was often the ultimate poser too. He would press up on the lead ball handler 40 feet from the basket, only to either get blown by or screened off easily. But he liked the optics of pressing up that far from the basket (omg look at Kobe D up!!!!1). It was nonsense though.

Also, calling Pau a net plus defender that year next to Dwight is nonsense.

Kobe was next to Dwight too. Why was he so heavily in the negatives when 3 Laker starters (Dwight, Pau, ARtest) were well into the positives. Let's be real, Kobe stopped playing defense years before 2013 and that wasn't going to suddenly change at the age of 34 while having his highest offensive load since the age of 28.

I don't know what else to tell you. The guy I watched tried. He didn't have it a lot of nights because no one takes on that challenge, and so yeah, the results weren't always great. My entire point was that it probably isn't fair to compare these seasons for that reason. Lebron doesn't have anywhere near that kind of physical responsibility on Lakers defense, and frankly he's never had to guard POA for basically an entire season. Chasing ball handlers around is hard work!

Effort=/results, and it does also seem odd to me that someone who stopped playing serious defense almost a decade prior would all of a suddenly ramp up at 34, albeit it does line up with overtaxing his body leading to the achilles tear.

Also, Lebron's never had to guard POA because it would be a waste of his energy and an extremely sub-optimal way to have him impact the game defensively.

[homecourtloss]

The thing that never gets brought up with 2013 Kobe is how he had to guard POA from the moment Nash came back all the way through his achilles injury. Lakers played two bigs which meant Kobe was fighting over screens all game.

I bring this up because the difference in amount of energy expended isn't remotely close, and that's before we get into difference in games played. The two way load these two players carried isn't remotely close. Also, worth noting that Kobe played PG that year too even when Nash came back.

2 way load? GTFOH . Lakers were 4.3 points worse defensively with Kobe on-court that season, by far the WORST of any rotation player on the team (nobody else is even within 2 points of him). That's also with 3 starters in Dwight, Pau and Artest all being net+ defenders that season. 2013 Kobe is renowned for playing 0 defense. I don't know why someone would make an argument in favor of his 2-way effort that year. Even your LeBron-hating troll self is better than this.

Funny how burdens and responsibilities don’t come up in other conversations involving one of these players, but they do in this one. Also, Kobe wasn’t playing any defense in 2013—not sure how hard he was fighting over screens, but one thing is for sure, he was really ineffective at it. And I like Kobe.

[VanWest82]

Effort=/results, and it does also seem odd to me that someone who stopped playing serious defense almost a decade prior would all of a suddenly ramp up at 34, albeit it does line up with overtaxing his body leading to the achilles tear.

What is odd is that you're making a declarative statement about Kobe stopping playing defense in 2003 and yet you're using "would" statements about 2013. Did you watch a lot of 00s Lakers but then stop watching later on?

I've said this before here and other places, but I hated Kobe and Lakers for all the reasons one would've hated Kobe and Lakers. Then Steve Nash signed there and I so I had to begrudgingly watch. But slowly over the course of that season, I actually became a fan of Kobe, and it was entirely because he would do whatever the team needed from him that night in order to win. He couldn't always pull it off, but he'd try.

I remember someone on ESPN (Zach Lowe, maybe) wrote an article part way through the year about what an abomination Kobe was defensively. I remember thinking wow this guy either isn't watching these games and is just going off on/off or other stats, or just doesn't get it. I don't know how anyone could've watched that season play out and not come out it thinking Kobe was a warrior.

[capfan33]

Effort=/results, and it does also seem odd to me that someone who stopped playing serious defense almost a decade prior would all of a suddenly ramp up at 34, albeit it does line up with overtaxing his body leading to the achilles tear.

What is odd is that you're making a declarative statement about Kobe stopping playing defense in 2003 and yet you're using "would" statements about 2013. Did you watch a lot of 00s Lakers but then stop watching later on?

I've said this before here and other places, but I hated Kobe and Lakers for all the reasons one would've hated Kobe and Lakers. Then Steve Nash signed there and I so I had to begrudgingly watch. But slowly over the course of that season, I actually became a fan of Kobe, and it was entirely because he would do whatever the team needed from him that night in order to win. He couldn't always pull it off, but he'd try.

I remember someone on ESPN (Zach Lowe, maybe) wrote an article part way through the year about what an abomination Kobe was defensively. I remember thinking wow this guy either isn't watching these games and is just going off on/off or other stats, or just doesn't get it. I don't know how anyone could've watched that season play out and not come out it thinking Kobe was a warrior.

You're right, I'm not a Kobe guy and have only watched highlights, never claimed to be an expert. However, I didn't just come up with this out of thin air. Ben Taylor has probably watched more Kobe possessions than anyone else and according to him, his defense started declining in 2001. From 01-04, in terms of blow bys per 100, he was in the 2nd percentile among all players. And was still in the 33rd percentile overall from 99-09 despite often covering the opposing teams weakest player.

Moreover, Phil Jackson in his book on the 04 Lakers noted that Kobe hadn't been playing sound defense for years at that point, needlessly gambling and getting beat too often. So if anything, I was probably being mendacious when saying almost a decade.

And once again:

I don't know how anyone could've watched that season play out and not come out it thinking Kobe was a warrior.

He was a warrior his entire career and clearly put everything he had into what was an unsalvageable situation, doesn't mean his defense was at all effective.

[tsherkin]

mendacious

Nice.

That is all.

[VanWest82]

He was a warrior his entire career and clearly put everything he had into what was an unsalvageable situation, doesn't mean his defense was at all effective.

Right, but I was conceding this point right from the outset. My point was that there's too big of a discrepancy between these player's respective two way loads in the seasons discussed. It'd be like saying who's the better offensive player, Duncan or Dirk, without acknowledging one guy had significantly larger defensive responsibility which presumably sapped some of his energy on offense. And yeah, I'm aware Duncan was actually good defensively whereas you're suggesting Kobe wasn't, but this is about load.

I think a better example would be to compare 22 Lebron vs. 13 Kobe. Lebron would probably win, but at least we can say both guys had to play out of position defensively and expend more energy on that end than they're used to.

[tsherkin]

Right, but I was conceding this point right from the outset. My point was that there's too big of a discrepancy between these player's respective two way loads in the seasons discussed. It'd be like saying who's the better offensive player, Duncan or Dirk, without acknowledging one guy had significantly larger defensive responsibility which presumably sapped some of his energy on offense.

No, that isn't an intelligible, defensible argument. Dirk's skillset was clearly dramatically superior to Duncan's on offense, independent of defense. That isn't a good analog at all, in any way, shape or form.

It is also worth keeping in mind that the base conceit here is skipping 5 years of time and mileage on Lebron given that Kobe was 34 in 2013 and Lebron 39 this year.

But yeah, Kobe wasn't doing anything worthwhile on defense, so crowing about his effort on that end doesn't really make a lot of sense. I understand the intent is to illustrate that he was making up for Old Man Nash, but like... and? The Lakers were a disaster that year. Kobe's O was impressive, it was a major resurgence for him. They were trash on defense, Pau played a little over half the season, Nash played 50 games, they had no bench to speak of, they were starting Artest, hell, they started Earl Clark for almost half the season. They shouldn't have even been trying to win at that point.

[tone wone]

So in conclusion...While LeBron's offense is a bit more impressive it doesn't count because Kobe’s defensive load was higher so actually Kobe’s offense indeed was more impressive.

Seriously, the '24 Lakers are actually a really talented offensive team. Why it took them nearly half the season to start playing like it is anybodys guess. The 2013 Lakers could've been one too but Nash's and Dwight's injuries/declined really hurt.

2013 Kobe takes on more playmaking and ballhandling duties while 2024 Lebron scales down his ballhandling but is still playmaking like crazy.

[Statlanta]

Flip a Coin

Bryant 9th ranked offense with +2 ORtg to League Average
James 15th ranked offense with +4 ORtg to League Average

Bryant's role changed from the traditional off-ball role to lead ball-handler because of injuries/D'Antoni's system whereas LeBron's role is mostly unchanged.

[RCM88x]

Kind a wild that Kobe was 5th in MVP voting that year, I think Lebron is pretty clearly better this year but I would be shocked if he finishes anywhere near 5th in MVP voting, even 10th would be a surprise the way people talk about him.

[Djoker]

In 2013 it was much tougher to put up big numbers.

Per 75 Possessions
2013 Kobe: 27.0 pts, 5.5 reb, 5.9 ast, 1.3 stl, 0.3 blk on +3.5 rTS with 3.6 tov
2024 Lebron: 26.2 pts, 7.5 reb, 8.5 ast, 1.2 stl, 0.5 blk on +4.7 rTS with 3.5 tov

Lebron has more impressive box and impact numbers but Kobe carried a bigger load due to injuries on that team.

Eh it's a toss up for me. If I had to choose probably Bron.