What's the argument for 2013 LeBron over 2009 LeBron?

[tone wone]

Lebron/Wades on/off were just fine until the 2013 playoffs, including the 2013 regular season, so bringing up portability is a bit odd.

Regular season is a different story but...

Lebron ON Wade ON lineups were consistently subpar in the playoffs. +4.6 Net average over the four postseasons from 2011-2014 which is heavily buoyed by the +13.3 Net in 2012. The other three years were very frankly quite poor for the superstar duo hovering around 0-2 Net.

They were a "superstar duo" for exactly one postseason...2011

[homecourtloss]

Lebron played most of the minutes in the 2013 postseason with Wade and based on all conventional wisdom he needed Wade to win that championship. Therefore the team not playing that well with Lebron and Wade both on the court isn't actually a good thing to see. Even though I'm firmly in the 2013 > 2009 camp.

Besides, when looking at team performance, it's helpful to look at Net Rating not just ORtg because teams can sacrifice defense for offense and vice versa with different lineups.

2013 Playoffs
Lebron ON Wade ON: +0.7 NetRtg – 678 min
Lebron ON Wade OFF: +23.7 NetRtg – 282 min
Lebron OFF Wade ON: +19.7 NetRtg – 104 min
Lebron OFF Wade OFF: -22.2 NetRtg – 49 min

Source: PBP Stats

When either Lebron or Wade sat, the team played extremely well. And both Lebron and Wade saw their numbers increase sharply when the other sat. Albeit these are extremely small samples with probably a lot of garbage time in OFF minutes to make that much of it. The Lebron ON Wade ON sample is worrying though and raises portability issues which are generally prevalent with just about any version of Lebron.

Against the Spurs, the Heat won the series when LeBron played without Wade.

James played 301 minutes in the Finals

230 minutes with Wade: -12.4 per 100 possessions; how the Heat didn’t lose the Finals looking at this number is a miracle.

LeBron’s 71 minutes without Wade: +37.7 per 100 possessions.

Heat with Wade off court in 2013 Finals: +28.8

Source: NBA.com

Why are we using tiny ass on/off samples to pretend Wade was a negative

It’s not an indictment on Wade but in the larger context of the “which year is peak LeBron debate,” James’s finals’ performance gets brought up, but there are mitigating circumstances.

[VanWest82]

Lebron/Wades on/off were just fine until the 2013 playoffs, including the 2013 regular season, so bringing up portability is a bit odd.

Regular season is a different story but...

Lebron ON Wade ON lineups were consistently subpar in the playoffs. +4.6 Net average over the four postseasons from 2011-2014 which is heavily buoyed by the +13.3 Net in 2012. The other three years were very frankly quite poor for the superstar duo hovering around 0-2 Net.

They were a "superstar duo" for exactly one postseason...2011

Wade was still a superstar in 2012. Both guys have talked about how they collectively made a decision to put the ball in Lebron's hands more and for Wade to take a step back starting that year. It didn't mean Wade was no longer a superstar. Putting up 41 and 10 in a close out game vs. Indy is what superstars do. Wade was a superstar until he broke down at the end of the 2013 winning streak.

[PistolPeteJR]

I'm sure this has been said already (and was immediately dismissed), but 09 Lebron was a flawed player and 13 wasn't even though Bron wasn't quite the same athlete anymore in 13. He lost in 07, 08, 10, and 11 for essentially the same reasons: his jumper wasn't good enough, his post game wasn't good enough, and as a result he didn't have a good enough answer for a zone / flooding the strong side combined with good transition defense. Edit: obviously there are other reasons his teams lost, but in terms of his own culpability...

Lebron has talked at length about how he used the lockout to really work on these weak aspects of his game, and has openly credited Dwane Casey for being the guy who finally convinced him he needed to change.

Anyone arguing 09 is basically ignoring this context or overly focusing on his regular season success followed by an unsustainable post season shooting hot streak against teams that didn't execute the kind of schemes that gave him so much trouble in the surrounding playoff exits/failures. You're basically saying Lebron doesn't know what he's talking about but I do. Let's trust Lebron here.

I agree that ‘13 LeBron had diversified his scoring skillset, but that isn’t why he lost in 08-10. He lost in those years because his supporting cast, frankly, sucked.

[tone wone]

Regular season is a different story but...

Lebron ON Wade ON lineups were consistently subpar in the playoffs. +4.6 Net average over the four postseasons from 2011-2014 which is heavily buoyed by the +13.3 Net in 2012. The other three years were very frankly quite poor for the superstar duo hovering around 0-2 Net.

They were a "superstar duo" for exactly one postseason...2011

Wade was still a superstar in 2012. Both guys have talked about how they collectively made a decision to put the ball in Lebron's hands more and for Wade to take a step back starting that year. It didn't mean Wade was no longer a superstar. Putting up 41 and 10 in a close out game vs. Indy is what superstars do. Wade was a superstar until he broke down at the end of the 2013 winning streak.

Great. He closed out the Pacers series fantastically. He also started that series poorly and was a big reason they were down 2-1 to begin with.

He started 2012 a superstar. He didn't finish as one.

[capfan33]

Lebron/Wades on/off were just fine until the 2013 playoffs, including the 2013 regular season, so bringing up portability is a bit odd.

Regular season is a different story but...

Lebron ON Wade ON lineups were consistently subpar in the playoffs. +4.6 Net average over the four postseasons from 2011-2014 which is heavily buoyed by the +13.3 Net in 2012. The other three years were very frankly quite poor for the superstar duo hovering around 0-2 Net.

Wade was a shell of himself in the 13 and 14 postseasons, so we basically have 2 postseasons to go off. But in 3 regular seasons before his injury Wade + Lebron was very good.

[VanWest82]

I'm sure this has been said already (and was immediately dismissed), but 09 Lebron was a flawed player and 13 wasn't even though Bron wasn't quite the same athlete anymore in 13. He lost in 07, 08, 10, and 11 for essentially the same reasons: his jumper wasn't good enough, his post game wasn't good enough, and as a result he didn't have a good enough answer for a zone / flooding the strong side combined with good transition defense. Edit: obviously there are other reasons his teams lost, but in terms of his own culpability...

Lebron has talked at length about how he used the lockout to really work on these weak aspects of his game, and has openly credited Dwane Casey for being the guy who finally convinced him he needed to change.

Anyone arguing 09 is basically ignoring this context or overly focusing on his regular season success followed by an unsustainable post season shooting hot streak against teams that didn't execute the kind of schemes that gave him so much trouble in the surrounding playoff exits/failures. You're basically saying Lebron doesn't know what he's talking about but I do. Let's trust Lebron here.

I agree that ‘13 LeBron had diversified his scoring skillset, but that isn’t why he lost in 08-10. He lost in those years because his supporting cast, frankly, sucked.

I mean, sure. Jordan lost 88-90 because his supporting cast wasn't good enough (and because Pistons injured him in those series). Lebron lost because his teammates were also not good enough (see my edit). But Lebron also lost in 08 and 10 because HE wasn't good enough. Go back and watch those last three games in 2010. Gilbert said he quit. I say it's because Celtics were more committed in bringing big baby and Sheed over to flood the strong side and cut off Bron's driving lanes. It led to a bunch of turnovers. Mavs also zoned up the strong side. If Lebron had been a better shooter, he would've shot over it. If he'd been a better post player, he would've given up the ball, fought for position, and operated out of the post the way he's done in later years. Those things didn't happen.

2010 was a winnable series. Cavs lost in part because Lebron wasn't good enough. Heat lost in 2011 in part because Lebron wasn't good enough. This context is really important re 2009.

[PistolPeteJR]

I'm sure this has been said already (and was immediately dismissed), but 09 Lebron was a flawed player and 13 wasn't even though Bron wasn't quite the same athlete anymore in 13. He lost in 07, 08, 10, and 11 for essentially the same reasons: his jumper wasn't good enough, his post game wasn't good enough, and as a result he didn't have a good enough answer for a zone / flooding the strong side combined with good transition defense. Edit: obviously there are other reasons his teams lost, but in terms of his own culpability...

Lebron has talked at length about how he used the lockout to really work on these weak aspects of his game, and has openly credited Dwane Casey for being the guy who finally convinced him he needed to change.

Anyone arguing 09 is basically ignoring this context or overly focusing on his regular season success followed by an unsustainable post season shooting hot streak against teams that didn't execute the kind of schemes that gave him so much trouble in the surrounding playoff exits/failures. You're basically saying Lebron doesn't know what he's talking about but I do. Let's trust Lebron here.

I agree that ‘13 LeBron had diversified his scoring skillset, but that isn’t why he lost in 08-10. He lost in those years because his supporting cast, frankly, sucked.

I mean, sure. Jordan lost 88-90 because his supporting cast wasn't good enough (and because Pistons injured him in those series). Lebron lost because his teammates were also not good enough (see my edit). But Lebron also lost in 08 and 10 because HE wasn't good enough. Go back and watch those last three games in 2010. Gilbert said he quit. I say it's because Celtics were more committed in bringing big baby and Sheed over to flood the strong side and cut off Bron's driving lanes. It led to a bunch of turnovers. Mavs also zoned up the strong side. If Lebron had been a better shooter, he would've shot over it. If he'd been a better post player, he would've given up the ball, fought for position, and operated out of the post the way he's done in later years. Those things didn't happen.

2010 was a winnable series. Cavs lost in part because Lebron wasn't good enough. Heat lost in 2011 in part because Lebron wasn't good enough. This context is really important re 2009.

I have no idea at all why you’re bringing up Jordan in this, let alone using any other player as an example at all.

What do I care what Gilbert, a guy with a reputation like his, who decided to cop a letter in Comic Sans MS to the city oozing with emotion and who did nothing with the team in the 4 years LeBron was gone despite promising a championship before LeBron wins, had to say? The evidence in 2010 concerning LeBron’s elbow as well as his needing IVs after games is well-documented by many sources.

Obviously, if he was better, they’d stand a better chance. No one disputed that. What I’m disputing is that that reason contributed MORE to the Cavs’ losses in 2008-2010 than the fact that his supporting cast was rubbish.

[TheGOATRises007]

I'm not sure 13 is a better RS than 09.

Pretty sure the data favors 09 clearly over 13.

Moreso production data (much more efficient scorer, and better playmaker imo); am aware that 09 > 13 from an impact standpoint - due to not sharing minutes and play-types with someone like Wade on the 09 Cavs.

Him being a better playmaker iyo does not mean he was a more productive one. 09 and 10 created far more while turning the ball over less. You can put that down to role, but you're mixing actual production with theoretical production. The former favors cleveland lebron by a margin, even if it's just a matter of oppurtunity.

Unless you are using cr7=messi logic, Lebron was far more productive in 2009/2010 over the course of the rs and arguably as if not more effecient(best turnover economy year ever probably)

What's this logic?

[TheGOATRises007]

I'm sure this has been said already (and was immediately dismissed), but 09 Lebron was a flawed player and 13 wasn't even though Bron wasn't quite the same athlete anymore in 13. He lost in 07, 08, 10, and 11 for essentially the same reasons: his jumper wasn't good enough, his post game wasn't good enough, and as a result he didn't have a good enough answer for a zone / flooding the strong side combined with good transition defense. Edit: obviously there are other reasons his teams lost, but in terms of his own culpability...

Lebron has talked at length about how he used the lockout to really work on these weak aspects of his game, and has openly credited Dwane Casey for being the guy who finally convinced him he needed to change.

Anyone arguing 09 is basically ignoring this context or overly focusing on his regular season success followed by an unsustainable post season shooting hot streak against teams that didn't execute the kind of schemes that gave him so much trouble in the surrounding playoff exits/failures. You're basically saying Lebron doesn't know what he's talking about but I do. Let's trust Lebron here.

I agree that ‘13 LeBron had diversified his scoring skillset, but that isn’t why he lost in 08-10. He lost in those years because his supporting cast, frankly, sucked.

I mean, sure. Jordan lost 88-90 because his supporting cast wasn't good enough (and because Pistons injured him in those series). Lebron lost because his teammates were also not good enough (see my edit). But Lebron also lost in 08 and 10 because HE wasn't good enough. Go back and watch those last three games in 2010. Gilbert said he quit. I say it's because Celtics were more committed in bringing big baby and Sheed over to flood the strong side and cut off Bron's driving lanes. It led to a bunch of turnovers. Mavs also zoned up the strong side. If Lebron had been a better shooter, he would've shot over it. If he'd been a better post player, he would've given up the ball, fought for position, and operated out of the post the way he's done in later years. Those things didn't happen.

2010 was a winnable series. Cavs lost in part because Lebron wasn't good enough. Heat lost in 2011 in part because Lebron wasn't good enough. This context is really important re 2009.

We can't blame LeBron in 08 when he played better than Kobe did with a worse team and the Cavs outscored the Celtics. We have to be fair and consistent.

There are certain games in the 2010 series vs the Celtics, I'd lay blame on LeBron, but I do think that roster was flawed. I picked the Celtics in 6 before the series myself. Maybe you could argue Rondo outplayed him in the series from a glance at box score metrics(not sure how the other numbers bear that out).

2011, LeBron himself said he wasn't good enough, so that's the only one I'd agree on.

But the discourse is about 2009. What happened in 2010, 2011 or 2008 has no bearing on 2009. I'm not going to criticize 2009 because of failings(2011) in other years as proof that he would have failed in 2009 as well(if they got to the finals). Those are silly hypotheticals and I don't like engaging in those.

LeBron's play in 2009 was exceptional and the only reason he didn't win a title that season was because the Cavs were again a flawed roster.

[VanWest82]

The evidence in 2010 concerning LeBron’s elbow as well as his needing IVs after games is well-documented by many sources.

Obviously, if he was better, they’d stand a better chance. No one disputed that. What I’m disputing is that that reason contributed MORE to the Cavs’ losses in 2008-2010 than the fact that his supporting cast was rubbish.

In comparison to the rest of the season leading up to those three games, Lebron's performance in those three games was more rubbish than his supporting cast.

I can't dispute whether or not he had an elbow injury that exculsively bothered him for those three games and no other games. What I can say is that Celtics changed their defensive coverages somewhat as that series progressed and that correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that Mavs used some of the same coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 08 Celtics also used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 07 Spurs and 06 Pistons (to a much lesser degree) used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles. Basically, anyone who had a decent POA guy and two bigs who could protect the rim who decided to zone the strong side seemed to correlate with Lebron struggling in the half court deep in the post season. Someone will point out that 09 Magic tried some of that (to a lesser degree than 10 Celtics and 11 Mavs) and Lebron made a bunch of midrange jumpers. Fair enough. He didn't make those jumpers before or after, and then admitted to that being a big part of the problem in interviews which is why he said he worked so hard on them in the lockout.

All of this is to say, 09 Lebron was suspect in his jump shot and post game; 13 Lebron was much less suspect in his jump shot and post game and therefore a more resilent and better overall player, which is what this thread is asking about.

[TheGOATRises007]

The evidence in 2010 concerning LeBron’s elbow as well as his needing IVs after games is well-documented by many sources.

Obviously, if he was better, they’d stand a better chance. No one disputed that. What I’m disputing is that that reason contributed MORE to the Cavs’ losses in 2008-2010 than the fact that his supporting cast was rubbish.

In comparison to the rest of the season leading up to those three games, Lebron's performance in those three games was more rubbish than his supporting cast.

I can't dispute whether or not he had an elbow injury that exculsively bothered him for those three games and no other games. What I can say is that Celtics changed their defensive coverages somewhat as that series progressed and that correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that Mavs used some of the same coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 08 Celtics also used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 07 Spurs and 06 Pistons (to a much lesser degree) used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles. Basically, anyone who had a decent POA guy and two bigs who could protect the rim who decided to zone the strong side seemed to correlate with Lebron struggling in the half court deep in the post season. Someone will point out that 09 Magic tried some of that (to a lesser degree than 10 Celtics and 11 Mavs) and Lebron made a bunch of midrange jumpers. Fair enough. He didn't make those jumpers before or after, and then admitted to that being a big part of the problem in interviews which is why he said he worked so hard on them in the lockout.

All of this is to say, 09 Lebron was suspect in his jump shot and post game; 13 Lebron was much less suspect in his jump shot and post game and therefore a more resilent and better overall player, which is what this thread is asking about.

It isn't. I'm asking for data driven arguments.

Also, I'm pretty sure 09 LeBron's jumper is comparable to 13 LeBron's jumper by the numbers.

13 LeBron isn't more resilient than 09 LeBron, because we saw LeBron struggle fairly heftily vs the Spurs in the finals until game 6. 09 LeBron didn't have those struggles.

09 LeBron played better in each round of the playoffs than 13 LeBron did. If you want to argue the Spurs had a better defense than the 09 Magic, I'm not sure the numbers bear that out and Dwight Howard in 09 is a better defender than Duncan in 13 as an interior defender(if the numbers prove me wrong, glad to see them).

[VanWest82]

The evidence in 2010 concerning LeBron’s elbow as well as his needing IVs after games is well-documented by many sources.

Obviously, if he was better, they’d stand a better chance. No one disputed that. What I’m disputing is that that reason contributed MORE to the Cavs’ losses in 2008-2010 than the fact that his supporting cast was rubbish.

In comparison to the rest of the season leading up to those three games, Lebron's performance in those three games was more rubbish than his supporting cast.

I can't dispute whether or not he had an elbow injury that exculsively bothered him for those three games and no other games. What I can say is that Celtics changed their defensive coverages somewhat as that series progressed and that correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that Mavs used some of the same coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 08 Celtics also used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 07 Spurs and 06 Pistons (to a much lesser degree) used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles. Basically, anyone who had a decent POA guy and two bigs who could protect the rim who decided to zone the strong side seemed to correlate with Lebron struggling in the half court deep in the post season. Someone will point out that 09 Magic tried some of that (to a lesser degree than 10 Celtics and 11 Mavs) and Lebron made a bunch of midrange jumpers. Fair enough. He didn't make those jumpers before or after, and then admitted to that being a big part of the problem in interviews which is why he said he worked so hard on them in the lockout.

All of this is to say, 09 Lebron was suspect in his jump shot and post game; 13 Lebron was much less suspect in his jump shot and post game and therefore a more resilent and better overall player, which is what this thread is asking about.

It isn't. I'm asking for data driven arguments.

Also, I'm pretty sure 09 LeBron's jumper is comparable to 13 LeBron's jumper by the numbers.

13 LeBron isn't more resilient than 09 LeBron, because we saw LeBron struggle fairly heftily vs the Spurs in the finals until game 6. 09 LeBron didn't have those struggles.

09 LeBron played better in each round of the playoffs than 13 LeBron did. If you want to argue the Spurs had a better defense than the 09 Magic, I'm not sure the numbers bear that out and Dwight Howard in 09 is a better defender than Duncan in 13 as an interior defender(if the numbers prove me wrong, glad to see them).

09 Lebron struggled with his jumper all year just like he had in the past and then went on a hot streak in the playoffs over 14 games (sss). 12 and 13 Lebron was a much better jump shooter all year, including in the playoffs (for the most part), and then struggled at times in certain series (sss). Your entire argument is based on ignoring the very large samples and focusing on the very small samples.

[TheGOATRises007]

In comparison to the rest of the season leading up to those three games, Lebron's performance in those three games was more rubbish than his supporting cast.

I can't dispute whether or not he had an elbow injury that exculsively bothered him for those three games and no other games. What I can say is that Celtics changed their defensive coverages somewhat as that series progressed and that correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that Mavs used some of the same coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 08 Celtics also used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 07 Spurs and 06 Pistons (to a much lesser degree) used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles. Basically, anyone who had a decent POA guy and two bigs who could protect the rim who decided to zone the strong side seemed to correlate with Lebron struggling in the half court deep in the post season. Someone will point out that 09 Magic tried some of that (to a lesser degree than 10 Celtics and 11 Mavs) and Lebron made a bunch of midrange jumpers. Fair enough. He didn't make those jumpers before or after, and then admitted to that being a big part of the problem in interviews which is why he said he worked so hard on them in the lockout.

All of this is to say, 09 Lebron was suspect in his jump shot and post game; 13 Lebron was much less suspect in his jump shot and post game and therefore a more resilent and better overall player, which is what this thread is asking about.

It isn't. I'm asking for data driven arguments.

Also, I'm pretty sure 09 LeBron's jumper is comparable to 13 LeBron's jumper by the numbers.

13 LeBron isn't more resilient than 09 LeBron, because we saw LeBron struggle fairly heftily vs the Spurs in the finals until game 6. 09 LeBron didn't have those struggles.

09 LeBron played better in each round of the playoffs than 13 LeBron did. If you want to argue the Spurs had a better defense than the 09 Magic, I'm not sure the numbers bear that out and Dwight Howard in 09 is a better defender than Duncan in 13 as an interior defender(if the numbers prove me wrong, glad to see them).

09 Lebron struggled with his jumper all year just like he had in the past and then went on a hot streak in the playoffs over 14 games (sss). 12 and 13 Lebron was a much better jump shooter all year, including in the playoffs (for the most part), and then struggled at times in certain series (sss). Your entire argument is based on ignoring the very large samples and focusing on the very small samples.

Do you have the numbers for LeBron's jumper during the RS in 09 and 13?

If I'm wrong, I'll concede that bit.

[VanWest82]

It isn't. I'm asking for data driven arguments.

Also, I'm pretty sure 09 LeBron's jumper is comparable to 13 LeBron's jumper by the numbers.

13 LeBron isn't more resilient than 09 LeBron, because we saw LeBron struggle fairly heftily vs the Spurs in the finals until game 6. 09 LeBron didn't have those struggles.

09 LeBron played better in each round of the playoffs than 13 LeBron did. If you want to argue the Spurs had a better defense than the 09 Magic, I'm not sure the numbers bear that out and Dwight Howard in 09 is a better defender than Duncan in 13 as an interior defender(if the numbers prove me wrong, glad to see them).

09 Lebron struggled with his jumper all year just like he had in the past and then went on a hot streak in the playoffs over 14 games (sss). 12 and 13 Lebron was a much better jump shooter all year, including in the playoffs (for the most part), and then struggled at times in certain series (sss). Your entire argument is based on ignoring the very large samples and focusing on the very small samples.

Do you have the numbers for LeBron's jumper during the RS in 09 and 13?

If I'm wrong, I'll concede that bit.

Go look at his bbref page. He clearly gets better from 10 feet and out starting in 2012. Then he reverts after going back to Cavs but it doesn't matter as much because NBA embraces shooting in the mid-2010s and the floor spaces so he just continues on as the lay up king (though I think he's become a better three point shooter as time has gone on).

[PistolPeteJR]

The evidence in 2010 concerning LeBron’s elbow as well as his needing IVs after games is well-documented by many sources.

Obviously, if he was better, they’d stand a better chance. No one disputed that. What I’m disputing is that that reason contributed MORE to the Cavs’ losses in 2008-2010 than the fact that his supporting cast was rubbish.

In comparison to the rest of the season leading up to those three games, Lebron's performance in those three games was more rubbish than his supporting cast.

I can't dispute whether or not he had an elbow injury that exculsively bothered him for those three games and no other games. What I can say is that Celtics changed their defensive coverages somewhat as that series progressed and that correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that Mavs used some of the same coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 08 Celtics also used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 07 Spurs and 06 Pistons (to a much lesser degree) used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles. Basically, anyone who had a decent POA guy and two bigs who could protect the rim who decided to zone the strong side seemed to correlate with Lebron struggling in the half court deep in the post season. Someone will point out that 09 Magic tried some of that (to a lesser degree than 10 Celtics and 11 Mavs) and Lebron made a bunch of midrange jumpers. Fair enough. He didn't make those jumpers before or after, and then admitted to that being a big part of the problem in interviews which is why he said he worked so hard on them in the lockout.

All of this is to say, 09 Lebron was suspect in his jump shot and post game; 13 Lebron was much less suspect in his jump shot and post game and therefore a more resilent and better overall player, which is what this thread is asking about.

As is your typical way around here, you pick and choose in your responses rather than taking everything in context. You start out your response to me by telling me how LeBron’s supporting cast was better than in in the last three games of the postseason in 2010, completely ignoring what I said about what was happening during that time (which I’m sure you didn’t need for me to tell you anyway as it’s well documented and well known). Then, you want to bring it up by going, “Sure he was hurt but the Celtics took advantage of him and because I can quantify that but can’t quantify his elbow, too bad.”

Finally, you bring up 07 and 06 with a much less polished LeBron, which no one in this discussion is bringing up as a way for you to offer comparisons.

Come on man. Be better. The lack of integrity when discussing things is such a massive turnoff.

I’m done here.

[VanWest82]

The evidence in 2010 concerning LeBron’s elbow as well as his needing IVs after games is well-documented by many sources.

Obviously, if he was better, they’d stand a better chance. No one disputed that. What I’m disputing is that that reason contributed MORE to the Cavs’ losses in 2008-2010 than the fact that his supporting cast was rubbish.

In comparison to the rest of the season leading up to those three games, Lebron's performance in those three games was more rubbish than his supporting cast.

I can't dispute whether or not he had an elbow injury that exculsively bothered him for those three games and no other games. What I can say is that Celtics changed their defensive coverages somewhat as that series progressed and that correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that Mavs used some of the same coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 08 Celtics also used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles, and that 07 Spurs and 06 Pistons (to a much lesser degree) used some of those coverages which correlated with Lebron's struggles. Basically, anyone who had a decent POA guy and two bigs who could protect the rim who decided to zone the strong side seemed to correlate with Lebron struggling in the half court deep in the post season. Someone will point out that 09 Magic tried some of that (to a lesser degree than 10 Celtics and 11 Mavs) and Lebron made a bunch of midrange jumpers. Fair enough. He didn't make those jumpers before or after, and then admitted to that being a big part of the problem in interviews which is why he said he worked so hard on them in the lockout.

All of this is to say, 09 Lebron was suspect in his jump shot and post game; 13 Lebron was much less suspect in his jump shot and post game and therefore a more resilent and better overall player, which is what this thread is asking about.

As is your typical way around here, you pick and choose in your responses rather than taking everything in context. You start out your response to me by telling me how LeBron’s supporting cast was better than in in the last three games of the postseason in 2010, completely ignoring what I said about what was happening during that time (which I’m sure you didn’t need for me to tell you anyway as it’s well documented and well known). Then, you want to bring it up by going, “Sure he was hurt but the Celtics took advantage of him and because I can quantify that but can’t quantify his elbow, too bad.”

Finally, you bring up 07 and 06 with a much less polished LeBron, which no one in this discussion is bringing up as a way for you to offer comparisons.

Come on man. Be better. The lack of integrity when discussing things is such a massive turnoff.

I’m done here.

Not what I said which is that Lebron was worse in those last three games in comparison with the rest of the season than his teammates were in comparison with the rest of the season.

You were the one who tried to use a supposed elbow injury in those three games as a way to dismiss a multi-year long trend of Lebron having a suspect jumper (and under-developed post game) as a way of dismissing actual deficiencies in his game which got exposed in four post seasons in a five year span. Who exactly is lacking integrity here?

[OhayoKD]

Moreso production data (much more efficient scorer, and better playmaker imo); am aware that 09 > 13 from an impact standpoint - due to not sharing minutes and play-types with someone like Wade on the 09 Cavs.

Him being a better playmaker iyo does not mean he was a more productive one. 09 and 10 created far more while turning the ball over less. You can put that down to role, but you're mixing actual production with theoretical production. The former favors cleveland lebron by a margin, even if it's just a matter of oppurtunity.

Unless you are using cr7=messi logic, Lebron was far more productive in 2009/2010 over the course of the rs and arguably as if not more effecient(best turnover economy year ever probably)

What's this logic?

The logic where production is only about who touches the ball last or second to last before a score happens or a turnover occurs and how frequently someone gets the last or second touch.

If you don't subscribe to that, no one has produced as much as Lebron has offensively in the 2009 and 2010 regular seasons(though offense only there may be an effeciency argument for volume off-ball creator steph in 2016 in spite of the obvious volume disparity).