Where would peak Kobe rank in today's league?

[ardee]

Choose whichever year you prefer (I go with 2008 personally).

I think he's either 2nd or 3rd, Jokic clear no. 1 but Kobe and Giannis are debatable imo especially given how much Kobe would benefit from a pace and space league.

[One_and_Done]

Probably not even top 5.

[The Explorer]

Choose whichever year you prefer (I go with 2008 personally).

I think he's either 2nd or 3rd, Jokic clear no. 1 but Kobe and Giannis are debatable imo especially given how much Kobe would benefit from a pace and space league.

Neck and neck with Jokic for best in the league. Though I probably give the advantage to Jokic.

[Cavsfansince84]

Haven't we been doing this thread almost every month for the last year or so?

[CodeBreaker]

Top 3

[Hair Jordan]

Behind Jokic, Luka and SGA.

[NBA4Lyfe]

peak kobe would average close to 40 with the modern rules

[Rishkar]

Jokic feels very clearly better. I'd take him, Giannis, Luka, and SGA over Kobe

[Asianiac_24]

Clearly behind Jokic but in the same tier as Luka/SGA/Giannis. So anywhere from 2 to 5

[One_and_Done]

peak kobe would average close to 40 with the modern rules

He'd be no better, and probably worse, for reasons that have been explained in depth before.

[MacGill]

He'd be in the conversation for best in the league without question. Advanced stats are warping people's minds in today's game. The second half of Denver/Bucks was some of the poorest playing I've seen in awhile. So when poster's want to act like this era is the greatest ever and use formulas only created to measure the most modern game, they lose all credibility with me. I've read too many, I used to think he was so good but now this measurment tells me I was wrong for thinking that at the time!! Kobe was considered best in the league and would be today considered best in the league.

[tsherkin]

Hard to envision him as the best in the game, since he wasn't really consistently that in his own day, but he'd be up there.

Kobe loved to shoot and he had fairly dismal shot selection. We did see him as a 6 3PA/g and we know he wasn't elite in that regard, so we know that wouldn't change too much. Could fairly expect his rim FG% to rise and maybe a teeny boost in his FTr. He'd still be a +3% rTS type player in today's game, which is good. As I consider him, it's hard to imagine him as outside the top ten. He would probably play more helio with heavier pick-and-roll proportion in today's game, which is a bit different than how Phil liked to handle him, so you'd probably see him as a 30/6, 30/7 kind of player on reasonable efficiency.

That starts to smell like a top 7 guy.

I can't really see him ahead of Giannis or Jokic or SGA, or this specific season's incarnation of Haliburton, or Luka. Probably not Steph, either. In the mix with KD, Mitchell, Steph, Lebron, like that. Really good, just not S-tier, so to speak.

[rebirthoftheM]

peak kobe would average close to 40 with the modern rules

He'd be no better, and probably worse, for reasons that have been explained in depth before.

Nonesense. I explain briefly here (viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2358292) why this is not so, but I'll copy it here for your comment:

2001-2010 Kobe RS (775 Games)

28.5 PPG/5.8 RBG/5.2 APG/1.7 SPG on 45.6% Shooting, 55.9% TS (League Average 53.1%, 3.1 TO.
2001-2010 PS (148 Games)

2001-2010 Kobe PS (148 Games)

28.8 PPG/5.7 RBG/5.4 APG/1.5 SPG on 45.2% Shooting, 54.8% TS (League Average 52.7%), 3.2 TO.

Average League DRTG during this Kobe's 01-10 10-yr run was 105.62 (ORTG of course 105.6 also).

The average DRTG of the teams Kobe faced in the playoffs during this time was approximately 102.

Half of Kobe's prime was played in arguably the toughest defensive era of all time, where both zone defense and handchecking was allowed, with Kobe facing 3 of the greatest defenses of all time during this 10 year window and numerous sub 100 DRTG teams. Kobe consistently faced tougher defenses than any modern wing player (including MJ) did, as evidenced by the rules and average DRTG. His offensive output which is already remarkable when contextualised against this defensive backdrop, should be magnified more, especially in comparison to a year such as this with uber spacing and a league average DRTG of 116.

Kobe would have feasted in the small-ball, space heavy, 3 point era.

Indeed he showed signs of it in 2013 well past his prime when D'Antoni made him the ball dominant runner on a high octane (relative to the year) offense during the last 20 or so games and he averaged 29/6/7 on 57% TS

[rebirthoftheM]

Hard to envision him as the best in the game, since he wasn't really consistently that in his own day, but he'd be up there.

Kobe loved to shoot and he had fairly dismal shot selection. We did see him as a 6 3PA/g and we know he wasn't elite in that regard, so we know that wouldn't change too much. Could fairly expect his rim FG% to rise and maybe a teeny boost in his FTr. He'd still be a +3% rTS type player in today's game, which is good. As I consider him, it's hard to imagine him as outside the top ten. He would probably play more helio with heavier pick-and-roll proportion in today's game, which is a bit different than how Phil liked to handle him, so you'd probably see him as a 30/6, 30/7 kind of player on reasonable efficiency.

That starts to smell like a top 7 guy.

I can't really see him ahead of Giannis or Jokic or SGA, or this specific season's incarnation of Haliburton, or Luka. Probably not Steph, either. In the mix with KD, Mitchell, Steph, Lebron, like that. Really good, just not S-tier, so to speak.

How can you side-step the reality that increased spacing would have undoubtedly had an appreciable impact on Kobe's game?

Kobe settled for shots during his later prime years because he simply couldn't get to the rim due to reduced athleticism and due to the lakers lacking another playmaker that would allow him to operate from the mid-post.

And during his athleticism prime, spacing was no good and he played against both handchecking and zone.

If you want to get an insight into how Kobe would fare, take late late prime Kobe in 2013. D'Antoni towards last 20-25 games left the entire offense Kobe to run. He became a ball dominant runner. He averaged 29/7 on 57.5% TS.

And that was past prime, athleticically diminished Kobe.

There is no reason why Kobe couldn't average 35 on 58-59% TS in this era. Spacing and lanes to the rim too good. He wouldnt be forced into as many long twos against long defenders due to driving and mid-post lack of access.

[TheGOATRises007]

I know SGA's been really good this season, but I've now seen multiple people take him over peak Kobe and peak Wade for today's NBA.

He better back that up in the playoffs.

[One_and_Done]

I'll just direct people here to one of the many threads discussing whether Kobe would be better today or not, to save time.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2353348&start=140

Just to elaborate

I think Iggy’s belated defence says it best. In order to say Kobe would be impactful today, he has to imagine a player that never existed. For me, that is not the right approach. Players can only get judged for the way they actually played.

The way Kobe played was incredibly selfish, and had an overrated impact on winning. To talk of a player developing in a different way in the modern age is just too hypothetical. It seems especially ridiculous to do so when that player had a terrible attitude, and showed during his own career that he had no interest whatever in adapting his style of play. I don’t need to imagine what Kobe would be like under a modern coach, because I actually saw it in 2013, and it was a huge disaster.

The 2013 Lakers were hailed as the overwhelming title favourites; and were a huge disappointment as a 45 win team who needed a great deal of home cooking by the refs down the stretch to even make the playoffs. Yeh, Nash was hurt, but that’s no excuse. They underachieved massively, and Kobe’s attitude and playstyle was a major reason for that underachievement (and a major reason that many people in hindsight decided he would have fit poorly with Nash anyway).

Kobe’s greatest strength was that he was an inelastic offensive player. Basically his chances of hitting a hard shot were just as high, no matter what you did, which meant playoff defence couldn’t scheme to take that away from him. The downside of that was:

1) If you are going to take the same inefficient, high degree of difficulty shots no matter what the D does, then you don’t really gain any benefit from improved spacing. That’s why this talk of “wow, Kobe would take advantage of today’s spacing” is off the mark.

2) High difficulty mid-rangers are now recognised as the least desirable shot in today’s game. They have a place, but they are just not a shot you want to build your offense around, because 2 points is worth less than 3.

3) Kobe’s efficiency on high degree of difficulty shots was acceptable back then because teams were less efficient. Now teams play so much more efficiently, and have so much more sophisticated offenses, that Kobe’s offense would be subpar.

That’s why Kobe would struggle more on offense in today’s game. But even in Kobe’s own era, his impact was plainly overstated. From 99-07 he led the Lakers to a 135-137 record in games where Shaq/Pau did not play; and no, it’s not because the team was so bad that it couldn’t be carried without Shaq/Pau. In games Kobe missed, Shaq had the Lakers playing like a 60+ win team. We also saw from 05-07 how much Kobe struggled as a floor raiser. Kobe’s strength was providing an extra weapon for an already good team in the playoffs. Unfortunately that strength would be significantly weakened in today’s game.

As I touch on; his D would also be a huge issue today. He could not get away with the things he did, modern D demands so much more from players. People like to point to SGA, as a way of pointing to an archetype that suggests “hey, maybe Kobe would be good today still”. The problem is SGA is a better 3pt shooter than Kobe, and runs the team’s offense as a highly efficient and low turnover point guard. Kobe can’t run an offense like SGA, and his iso-tendencies and lack of off-ball game would be highly limiting as a shooting guard. He’d basically be like a better version of DeRozan, which is good for about 6-12th most impactful in the league right now at best.

[OhayoKD]

Hard to envision him as the best in the game, since he wasn't really consistently that in his own day, but he'd be up there.

Kobe loved to shoot and he had fairly dismal shot selection. We did see him as a 6 3PA/g and we know he wasn't elite in that regard, so we know that wouldn't change too much. Could fairly expect his rim FG% to rise and maybe a teeny boost in his FTr. He'd still be a +3% rTS type player in today's game, which is good. As I consider him, it's hard to imagine him as outside the top ten. He would probably play more helio with heavier pick-and-roll proportion in today's game, which is a bit different than how Phil liked to handle him, so you'd probably see him as a 30/6, 30/7 kind of player on reasonable efficiency.

That starts to smell like a top 7 guy.

I can't really see him ahead of Giannis or Jokic or SGA, or this specific season's incarnation of Haliburton, or Luka. Probably not Steph, either. In the mix with KD, Mitchell, Steph, Lebron, like that. Really good, just not S-tier, so to speak.

How can you side-step the reality that increased spacing would have undoubtedly had an appreciable impact on Kobe's game?

Kobe settled for shots during his later prime years because he simply couldn't get to the rim due to reduced athleticism and due to the lakers lacking another playmaker that would allow him to operate from the mid-post.

And during his athleticism prime, spacing was no good and he played against both handchecking and zone.
.

This is a good argument for Kobe's slashlines going up, not his actual impact on winning(which is what most people here consider goodness). There are points for Kobe here(he was schematically asked to take less effecient plays and graded out on elite effeciency at pretty much everything if you go by playtype), but this doesn't mean anything inofitself. Kobe played in a considerably less talented league and was not a clear best player in the league.

[ardee]

He'd be in the conversation for best in the league without question. Advanced stats are warping people's minds in today's game. The second half of Denver/Bucks was some of the poorest playing I've seen in awhile. So when poster's want to act like this era is the greatest ever and use formulas only created to measure the most modern game, they lose all credibility with me. I've read too many, I used to think he was so good but now this measurment tells me I was wrong for thinking that at the time!! Kobe was considered best in the league and would be today considered best in the league.

Nice to see the Shaq guy giving the Kobester his props (I also came around on Shaq a few years ago and see him as a top 5 guy all time)

I think Jokic is better than Kobe for sure (he's also got an argument for GOAT offensive player so not a major insult in my eyes), but yeah it's crazy that people want to put someone like SGA over Kobe. Glad to see some reason in here from this post.

[One_and_Done]

Looking at the numbers Kobe isn't even terribly close to SGA.

[70sFan]

SGA has a fantastic season, but I think we should stop and wait until the playoffs before calling him the best guard after MJ, right?

Haliburton mention is also strange, I don't see much of a case for him over peak Kobe.