Tyrese Haliburton vs Peak Steve Nash

Matt15 · Post #1 » by **Matt15** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:05 am

Current Haliburton or Peak Nash, who is the better player?

MyUniBroDavis · Post #2 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 9:17 am

So technically speaking if you got the impact data or whatever which people hype nash up by, Hali probably looks like an outlier right now, his offensive EPM is 9.4 which is the highest in the database iirc. Jokic right now is at +8.4, and if you take out haliburton from the dataset it’s his best offensive year thus far in this regard both in his raw value and how he compared to others (just by this metric). It’s not RAPM but you can probably be sure that his offensive RAPM is probably #1 in the league right now over Jokic. Gap between them is higher than the gap between Jokic and 2nd place the years he’s been first (2022, 2021 tied for first)

It’s nash easily though lmfao just wanted to say that because idk it feels like stuff impact metrics only matter up to 2018 for people on here

Also to be clear Jokic clears on offense as does a few other people right now probably

LA Bird · Post #3 » by **LA Bird** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 3:02 pm

MyUniBroDavis wrote:So technically speaking if you got the impact data or whatever which people hype nash up by, Hali probably looks like an outlier right now, his offensive EPM is 9.4 which is the highest in the database iirc. Jokic right now is at +8.4, and if you take out haliburton from the dataset it’s his best offensive year thus far in this regard both in his raw value and how he compared to others (just by this metric). It’s not RAPM but you can probably be sure that his offensive RAPM is probably #1 in the league right now over Jokic. Gap between them is higher than the gap between Jokic and 2nd place the years he’s been first (2022, 2021 tied for first)

It’s nash easily though lmfao just wanted to say that because idk it feels like stuff impact metrics only matter up to 2018 for people on here

EPM has a strong box component and Nash gets crushed on that front against the other top offensive players. He is still ahead of Haliburton in terms of raw plus minus,

Relative ORtg
05 Nash: +14.2 On, -3.2 Off, +17.4 Net
24 Hali*: +13.2 On, +2.6 Off, +10.6 Net
* Excluding the IST Finals which officially don't count. With it included, Haliburton's on-court and net both go down by more than 1

I think it's still too early in the season for this discussion but Haliburton does look very good as of right now.

MyUniBroDavis · Post #4 » by **MyUniBroDavis** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:37 pm

LA Bird wrote:
MyUniBroDavis wrote:So technically speaking if you got the impact data or whatever which people hype nash up by, Hali probably looks like an outlier right now, his offensive EPM is 9.4 which is the highest in the database iirc. Jokic right now is at +8.4, and if you take out haliburton from the dataset it’s his best offensive year thus far in this regard both in his raw value and how he compared to others (just by this metric). It’s not RAPM but you can probably be sure that his offensive RAPM is probably #1 in the league right now over Jokic. Gap between them is higher than the gap between Jokic and 2nd place the years he’s been first (2022, 2021 tied for first)

It’s nash easily though lmfao just wanted to say that because idk it feels like stuff impact metrics only matter up to 2018 for people on here

EPM has a strong box component and Nash gets crushed on that front against the other top offensive players. He is still ahead of Haliburton in terms of raw plus minus,

Relative ORtg
05 Nash: +14.2 On, -3.2 Off, +17.4 Net
24 Hali*: +13.2 On, +2.6 Off, +10.6 Net
* Excluding the IST Finals which officially don't count. With it included, Haliburton's on-court and net both go down by more than 1

I think it's still too early in the season for this discussion but Haliburton does look very good as of right now.

I wasn’t directly comparing it to Nash’s because it only goes to 2014 iirc, and it also says his defense has been horrendous

(Also I don’t really like EPM LEBRON just isn’t out yet XD and shotcharts is taken down even though it would be too early for raw rapm to really mean much rn)

Just eyeballing the on off stuff (off bbref and not nba.com Tbf I know it’s not as accurate just easier in this quick post lol) nashs def looks more impressive even off the offensive end, and as I said I take nash here pretty easily, I just think that if we do get rapm or something (which we probably will) he might look insane on that end in a similar way that nash did in his good years, not that that necessarily equates to him being that caliber of offensive player in the league

Valid point tho

Colbinii · Post #5 » by **Colbinii** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 6:11 pm

Nash, not close enough where I would entertain the comparison but Haliburton has been playing at an extremely high level this season.

The Lakers game showed a few things, notably how a playoff defensive setting is going to play Haliburton, and where he needs to improve. It also shows Indiana is an extremely flawed team, with a lack of size, mediocre rim protection and unreliable #2/#3 options offensively to alleviate pressure from Haliburton.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #6 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:20 pm

Come on. A 20 game sample at this level plus what he did last year over what Nash did over 4-5 years? I get its peak but you have to at least back it up in the playoffs before it can be used in debates like this. Nash despite getting dinged for lack of playoff success still did things which Ty hasn't come close to yet.

Post #7 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Dec 11, 2023 8:28 pm

Let's keep watching him the rest of the year (and it's a pleasure to watch him so far), and at the end of the year, we can make this comparison. If you can actually compare 20 game samples over the NBA's history, then comparing Haliburton to others is fair, but it's still small sample size theatre right now.

Post #8 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Dec 12, 2023 10:17 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Let's keep watching him the rest of the year (and it's a pleasure to watch him so far), and at the end of the year, we can make this comparison. If you can actually compare 20 game samples over the NBA's history, then comparing Haliburton to others is fair, but it's still small sample size theatre right now.

Exactly how I feel.

Hali is totally showing some of what I'd expect from a competitor to Nash, but I'm not hasty in drawing conclusions.

I'll also say that I am super-impressed by Hali leading the best ORtg with low TOs at super-fast pace, but it has been brought to my attention that while the Pacer pace is way faster than Nash-era Sun pace, if you actually look at how much time the Sun possessions took, they're just as fast as the Pacers, it's just that in the meantime everyone else has sped up that much.

mdonnelly1989 · Post #9 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Wed Dec 13, 2023 5:54 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:Come on. A 20 game sample at this level plus what he did last year over what Nash did over 4-5 years? I get its peak but you have to at least back it up in the playoffs before it can be used in debates like this. Nash despite getting dinged for lack of playoff success still did things which Ty hasn't come close to yet.

Right now Haliburton is a 93

Peak Steve Nash was about a 95-96 right around where Luka is now.

A great playoffs can propel him there and beyond but not just yet.

ShotCreator · Post #10 » by **ShotCreator** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 3:17 am

Haliburton's shot distribution and passing style is still under question from me. I don't think he's Nash level at creating looks for teammates, however his decision making seems to be all-time good. The TOV rate is preposterous.

I don't know if Haliburton's shot making will really hold up against elite D.

Stylistically I'd prefer Nash even if I thought they were equally as effective. Yet to be seen.

Woodsanity · Post #11 » by **Woodsanity** » Thu Dec 14, 2023 8:51 pm

Need to see a larger sample from Hali to determine. Not sure if his current numbers are sustainable.

giordunk · Post #12 » by **giordunk** » Fri Dec 15, 2023 7:00 am

Look if Haliburton is actually this good and has some playoff experience under his belt, he is a much better overall player than Steve Nash.

Ritzo · Post #13 » by **Ritzo** » Tue May 7, 2024 3:12 am

Regular season player, he sh*t his pants under the bright light. Nash never won a title but at least he always elevated his game come playoff time.

TroubleS0me · Post #14 » by **TroubleS0me** » Tue May 7, 2024 4:18 am

Ritzo wrote:Regular season player, he sh*t his pants under the bright light. Nash never won a title but at least he always elevated his game come playoff time.

good bump lol
yea Tyrese & Peak Nash in the same sentence wow smh

EmpireFalls · Post #15 » by **EmpireFalls** » Tue May 7, 2024 4:40 am

At least the poll spoke the truth.

GSP · Post #16 » by **GSP** » Tue May 7, 2024 4:41 am

Podcaster Pat Bev outplayed Haliburton in a playoff game and blew his ass out lmao

AdagioPace · Post #17 » by **AdagioPace** » Tue May 7, 2024 11:24 am

here we have a typical example of a "December overreaction"

Post #18 » by **tsherkin** » Wed May 8, 2024 10:05 am

AdagioPace wrote:here we have a typical example of a "December overreaction"

We're guilty of it eventually, heh.

RSCD3_ · Post #19 » by **RSCD3_** » Wed May 8, 2024 11:12 pm

I believe haliburton was playing over his head but he hasnt had time to heal because he needed to hit that 65 game benchmark and across the board his stats and especially his jumper were down so I'm thinking an offseason will have his scoring game flourish more even if its not 26 PPG on 63 TS%

AEnigma · Post #20 » by **AEnigma** » Wed May 8, 2024 11:21 pm

RSCD3_ wrote:I believe haliburton was playing over his head but he hasnt had time to heal because he needed to hit that 65 game benchmark and across the board his stats and especially his jumper were down so I'm thinking an offseason will have his scoring game flourish more even if its not 26 PPG on 63 TS%

Nah I prefer pretending the guy who had been a career 40% shooter just coincidentally became a 32% one after his injury.

He is worse than Nash, and this was a silly and reactive thread, but extremely telling what types of people treat injury as an opportunity to gloat rather than as a disappointing setback for a visibly elite young player.

Better player?