Nikola Jokic - 23-24 NBA Thread - '24 NBA MVP & 23 Finals NBA MVP

[Special_Puppy]

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How come yall never post these stats?

It’s 1 if you include the 2020 Clippers. It’s 2 for Giannis if you include the 2021 Nets and 0 for Embiid

[parsnips33]

Hes also never played w/ an All star or All Nba player............Murray overperforming in playoffs was never gonna last forever and hes never sniffed an All star game for a reason. Hes been a disaster all playoffs aside from 3 quarters against La. When ur 2nd option isnt a real star its hard to beat 50 win teams unless youre Bron

Sounds like excuses to me. All I heard was Jokic is better than prime bron, on Jordan level blah blah blah. You forgetting that Curry won a chip with Wiggins averaging worse stats than Murray so that all star excuse is nonsense. Jokic doesn’t even look like the best player on the court, has folks on his floor calling Ant mvp. Crazy

Steph had one of the deepest rosters in the league and he was outplayed by Jokic missing Murray, Mpj and Kcp in their series too

Anyone who thought Jokic was on Bron or Mj level is deluded and most likely a teenager

Wait I thought it was impossible to beat a 50 win team without a star as a second option unless you were Lebron? Or we're calling Wiggins a star now?

[oaktownwarriors87]

Jokic is 1-3 (soon to be 1-4?) against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher. His only win came in the bubble against the Clippers.

These types of arbitrary playoff record things people bring up are pretty meaningless imo. Jokic has only played on one team with an srs above 5 himself(this year's team). Even if Denver loses to Minn they still have 3-4 years to retool and win more. Maybe even longer.

There's an average of 4 teams with an SRS of 5.0+ every year and pretty much every champion has an SRS of 5.0+. Not being able to beat a top 4 team when you are in talks for GOAT status is pretty damning.

5.0 is a prefect cutoff line. There is a huge sample size of how GOAT level players perform against teams with an SRS above and below 5.0, and there is a drastic difference between the two. Jokic is 8-1 against teams with an SRS below 5.0. Jordan is 16-0. Curry is 17-1. Kobe is 20-1. LeBron is 37-3. Thats a combined 98-6 (94.23%). We shouldn't be shocked when these GOAT level players beat non contenders in the playoffs (SRS below 5.0). They aren't challenged at that level. Those same 5 players are 38-33 (soon to be 38-34?) against teams with an SRS of 5.0+.

Former MVP's and their playoffs record against teams with an SRS of 5+

Russell: 3-1 (75.00%)
Jordan: 14-7 (66.66%)
Curry: 6-4 (60.00%)
Kobe: 13-9 (59.09%)
Magic: 7-5 (58.33%)
Shaq: 11-8 (57.89%)
Duncan: 7-8 (46.66%)
Hakeem: 6-7 (46.15%)
Kareem: 5-6 (45.45%)
Garnett: 5-6 (45.45%)
Bird: 3-4 (42.86%)
Nowitzki: 6-10 (37.50%)
Chamberlain: 4-7 (36.36%)
Durant: 4-7 (36.36%)
Malone: 6-11 (35.29%)
Westbrook: 3-6 (33.33%)
Giannis: 1-2 (33.33%)
LeBron: 4-10 (28.57%)
Nash: 4-10 (28.57%)
Moses: 2-5 (28.57%)
Barkley: 3-8 (27.27%)
Harden: 3-9 (25.00%)
Robinson: 2-6 (25.00%)
Jokic: 1-4? (20.00%)
Iverson: 0-2 (00.00%)

Obviously Jokic still has a lot of time, though. Jordan started 1-6 and followed that up with 14-1 to finish 15-7.

[Colbinii]

Jokic is 1-3 (soon to be 1-4?) against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher. His only win came in the bubble against the Clippers.

These types of arbitrary playoff record things people bring up are pretty meaningless imo. Jokic has only played on one team with an srs above 5 himself(this year's team). Even if Denver loses to Minn they still have 3-4 years to retool and win more. Maybe even longer.

5.0 is a prefect cutoff line. There is a huge sample size of how GOAT level players perform against teams with an SRS above and below 5.0, and there is a drastic difference between the two. Jokic is 8-1 against teams with an SRS below 5.0. Jordan is 16-0. Curry is 17-1. Kobe is 20-1. LeBron is 37-3. Thats a combined 98-6 (94.23%). We shouldn't be shocked when these GOAT level players beat non contenders in the playoffs (SRS below 5.0). They aren't challenged at that level. Those same 5 players are 38-33 (soon to be 38-34?) against teams with an SRS of 5.0+.

There's an average of 4 teams with an SRS of 5.0+ every year and pretty much every champion has an SRS of 5.0+. Not being able to beat a top 4 team when you are in talks for GOAT status is pretty damning.

Former MVP's and their playoffs record against teams with an SRS of 5+

Russell: 3-1 (75.00%)
Jordan: 14-7 (66.66%)
Curry: 6-4 (60.00%)
Kobe: 13-9 (59.09%)
Magic: 7-5 (58.33%)
Shaq: 11-8 (57.89%)
Duncan: 7-8 (46.66%)
Hakeem: 6-7 (46.15%)
Kareem: 5-6 (45.45%)
Garnett: 5-6 (45.45%)
Bird: 3-4 (42.86%)
Nowitzki: 6-10 (37.50%)
Chamberlain: 4-7 (36.36%)
Durant: 4-7 (36.36%)
Malone: 6-11 (35.29%)
Westbrook: 3-6 (33.33%)
Giannis: 1-2 (33.33%)
LeBron: 4-10 (28.57%)
Nash: 4-10 (28.57%)
Moses: 2-5 (28.57%)
Barkley: 3-8 (27.27%)
Harden: 3-9 (25.00%)
Robinson: 2-6 (25.00%)
Jokic: 1-4? (20.00%)
Iverson: 0-2 (00.00%)

Obviously Jokic still has a lot of time, though. Jordan started 1-6 and followed that up with 14-1 to finish 15-7.

So if you carry a mediocre team to the post-season and lose to a 10 SRS team, it's less important than playing on a 10 SRS team and beating a 5 SRS team?

[oaktownwarriors87]

These types of arbitrary playoff record things people bring up are pretty meaningless imo. Jokic has only played on one team with an srs above 5 himself(this year's team). Even if Denver loses to Minn they still have 3-4 years to retool and win more. Maybe even longer.

5.0 is a prefect cutoff line. There is a huge sample size of how GOAT level players perform against teams with an SRS above and below 5.0, and there is a drastic difference between the two. Jokic is 8-1 against teams with an SRS below 5.0. Jordan is 16-0. Curry is 17-1. Kobe is 20-1. LeBron is 37-3. Thats a combined 98-6 (94.23%). We shouldn't be shocked when these GOAT level players beat non contenders in the playoffs (SRS below 5.0). They aren't challenged at that level. Those same 5 players are 38-33 (soon to be 38-34?) against teams with an SRS of 5.0+.

There's an average of 4 teams with an SRS of 5.0+ every year and pretty much every champion has an SRS of 5.0+. Not being able to beat a top 4 team when you are in talks for GOAT status is pretty damning.

Former MVP's and their playoffs record against teams with an SRS of 5+

Russell: 3-1 (75.00%)
Jordan: 14-7 (66.66%)
Curry: 6-4 (60.00%)
Kobe: 13-9 (59.09%)
Magic: 7-5 (58.33%)
Shaq: 11-8 (57.89%)
Duncan: 7-8 (46.66%)
Hakeem: 6-7 (46.15%)
Kareem: 5-6 (45.45%)
Garnett: 5-6 (45.45%)
Bird: 3-4 (42.86%)
Nowitzki: 6-10 (37.50%)
Chamberlain: 4-7 (36.36%)
Durant: 4-7 (36.36%)
Malone: 6-11 (35.29%)
Westbrook: 3-6 (33.33%)
Giannis: 1-2 (33.33%)
LeBron: 4-10 (28.57%)
Nash: 4-10 (28.57%)
Moses: 2-5 (28.57%)
Barkley: 3-8 (27.27%)
Harden: 3-9 (25.00%)
Robinson: 2-6 (25.00%)
Jokic: 1-4? (20.00%)
Iverson: 0-2 (00.00%)

Obviously Jokic still has a lot of time, though. Jordan started 1-6 and followed that up with 14-1 to finish 15-7.

So if you carry a mediocre team to the post-season and lose to a 10 SRS team, it's less important than playing on a 10 SRS team and beating a 5 SRS team?

A 10+ SRS team is top 10 all time. So yes, being on a top 10 team of all time and wining is more impressive than not being on a top 10 teams and losing.

Obviously there will be years and series we can pick apart, but it's pretty clear that GOAT level players rarely lose to teams below 5.0 and they are challenged by teams 5.0 and higher. That sample size is pretty significant, too.

Oh, and someone like Malone is 13-8 against teams with an SRS below 5.0. Harden is 12-6. Jordan, Curry, Jokic and LeBron have 6 losses COMBINED in 104 playoff series. Guys like Harden and Malone are out of the GOAT talks because they consistency lost to not just great teams, but also mediocre teams.

[Woodsanity]

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How come yall never post these stats?

Hes also never played w/ an All star or All Nba player............Murray overperforming in playoffs was never gonna last forever and hes never sniffed an All star game for a reason. Hes been a disaster all playoffs aside from 3 quarters against La. When ur 2nd option isnt a real star its hard to beat 50 win teams unless youre Bron

Sounds like excuses to me. All I heard was Jokic is better than prime bron, on Jordan level blah blah blah. You forgetting that Curry won a chip with Wiggins averaging worse stats than Murray so that all star excuse is nonsense. Jokic doesn’t even look like the best player on the court, has folks on his floor calling Ant mvp. Crazy

This is how we know you are a casual fan.

Warriors were the best defense in the league that season which had nothing to do with Steph.

Jokic isnt top 5 territory. More like top 10-15 all time still hasn't ever had an all star teammate.

[Woodsanity]

Denver becomes very mortal when Murray isn't pulling his weight. I don't think this is really on Jokic though he needs to do more. It's just not in his usual playstyle to go for 40+ in playoff games. If Murray starts slow in game 3 Jokic absolutely has to pick up the slack and shoot it 25-30+ times though. That said I am not counting Den out yet. The pressure could still get to Minny later on.

Very top heavy team.

Their only chance was with all their starters playing great. With Murray going from "superstar" to Kwame Brown level it was all over.

[EmpireFalls]

Jokic is 1-3 (soon to be 1-4?) against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher. His only win came in the bubble against the Clippers.

These types of arbitrary playoff record things people bring up are pretty meaningless imo. Jokic has only played on one team with an srs above 5 himself(this year's team). Even if Denver loses to Minn they still have 3-4 years to retool and win more. Maybe even longer.

There's an average of 4 teams with an SRS of 5.0+ every year and pretty much every champion has an SRS of 5.0+. Not being able to beat a top 4 team when you are in talks for GOAT status is pretty damning.

5.0 is a prefect cutoff line. There is a huge sample size of how GOAT level players perform against teams with an SRS above and below 5.0, and there is a drastic difference between the two. Jokic is 8-1 against teams with an SRS below 5.0. Jordan is 16-0. Curry is 17-1. Kobe is 20-1. LeBron is 37-3. Thats a combined 98-6 (94.23%). We shouldn't be shocked when these GOAT level players beat non contenders in the playoffs (SRS below 5.0). They aren't challenged at that level. Those same 5 players are 38-33 (soon to be 38-34?) against teams with an SRS of 5.0+.

Former MVP's and their playoffs record against teams with an SRS of 5+

Russell: 3-1 (75.00%)
Jordan: 14-7 (66.66%)
Curry: 6-4 (60.00%)
Kobe: 13-9 (59.09%)
Magic: 7-5 (58.33%)
Shaq: 11-8 (57.89%)
Duncan: 7-8 (46.66%)
Hakeem: 6-7 (46.15%)
Kareem: 5-6 (45.45%)
Garnett: 5-6 (45.45%)
Bird: 3-4 (42.86%)
Nowitzki: 6-10 (37.50%)
Chamberlain: 4-7 (36.36%)
Durant: 4-7 (36.36%)
Malone: 6-11 (35.29%)
Westbrook: 3-6 (33.33%)
Giannis: 1-2 (33.33%)
LeBron: 4-10 (28.57%)
Nash: 4-10 (28.57%)
Moses: 2-5 (28.57%)
Barkley: 3-8 (27.27%)
Harden: 3-9 (25.00%)
Robinson: 2-6 (25.00%)
Jokic: 1-4? (20.00%)
Iverson: 0-2 (00.00%)

Obviously Jokic still has a lot of time, though. Jordan started 1-6 and followed that up with 14-1 to finish 15-7.

Can I ask why you use 5? Why not 4? Does the distribution meaningfully change using 4 SRS? It just seems rather arbitrary to me maybe I’m missing something.

[bigboi]

Hes also never played w/ an All star or All Nba player............Murray overperforming in playoffs was never gonna last forever and hes never sniffed an All star game for a reason. Hes been a disaster all playoffs aside from 3 quarters against La. When ur 2nd option isnt a real star its hard to beat 50 win teams unless youre Bron

Sounds like excuses to me. All I heard was Jokic is better than prime bron, on Jordan level blah blah blah. You forgetting that Curry won a chip with Wiggins averaging worse stats than Murray so that all star excuse is nonsense. Jokic doesn’t even look like the best player on the court, has folks on his floor calling Ant mvp. Crazy

This is how we know you are a casual fan.

Warriors were the best defense in the league that season which had nothing to do with Steph.

Jokic isnt top 5 territory. More like top 10-15 all time still hasn't ever had an all star teammate.

No, you’re a casual. The fact that you’re saying Jokic is top 10-15 is ridiculous in itself. Had yall saying Jokic is better than Kobe. Cut the bs.

So many of you had Nuggets repeating, now Jokic has no support. Murray isn’t an all star YET is better across the board than Wiggins who made the ASG. And last thing, Jokic not even playing better than KAT rn. Cut the nonsense

[Woodsanity]

Sounds like excuses to me. All I heard was Jokic is better than prime bron, on Jordan level blah blah blah. You forgetting that Curry won a chip with Wiggins averaging worse stats than Murray so that all star excuse is nonsense. Jokic doesn’t even look like the best player on the court, has folks on his floor calling Ant mvp. Crazy

This is how we know you are a casual fan.

Warriors were the best defense in the league that season which had nothing to do with Steph.

Jokic isnt top 5 territory. More like top 10-15 all time still hasn't ever had an all star teammate.

No, you’re a casual. The fact that you’re saying Jokic is top 10-15 is ridiculous in itself. Had yall saying Jokic is better than Kobe. Cut the bs.

So many of you had Nuggets repeating, now Jokic has no support. Murray isn’t an all star YET is better across the board than Wiggins who made the ASG. And last thing, Jokic not even playing better than KAT rn. Cut the nonsense

Yes you are a casual fan and every response you makes it more apparent.

Kobe had prime Shaq on his team and prime Pau Gasol after that. Shaq is better than Kobe. Prime Gasol was a very good all star.

Why do you keep pointing out Wiggens? Number 1 defense in the league bud. Stop thinking only about offense and guess what Curry is average at best defensively and got hidden defensively.

Oh wait you do think of defense when you say nonsense like Jokic worst defender then when it comes to Curry you ignore defense.

[Colbinii]

LeBron playing poorly in the 2011 Finals doesn't make his 2009 or 2010 seasons any worse.

Jordan retiring in 1994 doesn't make his 1993 NBA Run any less impressive.

[Texas Chuck]

LeBron playing poorly in the 2011 Finals doesn't make his 2009 or 2010 seasons any worse.

Jordan retiring in 1994 doesn't make his 1993 NBA Run any less impressive.

And to add to both, while Lebron maybe still had some questions in 2011 since he hadn't won a title yet, he only went on and was in the finals for a decade straight and won 4 titles after that bad series. Nobody should still be talking about that series as other than a blip. And Mike had already made it clear how great he was, but he also came back and won 3 more titles after that first retirement.

It's one thing to look at Julius Randle having two terrible playoff series as a Knick and wondering why this all-NBA level player has played so poorly. Its another to look at guys with tremendous resumes already having 2 bad games or a bad series and going well see we can ignore everything else that happened because I want them to not be seen as good for whatever reason so I'll just reduce it to this...pointless, just beyond pointless.

But for those above, I am definitely a casual fan so if that bothers you, ignore this. I don't fan professionally. Nobody is paying me for these opinions.

[Special_Puppy]

Sounds like excuses to me. All I heard was Jokic is better than prime bron, on Jordan level blah blah blah. You forgetting that Curry won a chip with Wiggins averaging worse stats than Murray so that all star excuse is nonsense. Jokic doesn’t even look like the best player on the court, has folks on his floor calling Ant mvp. Crazy

Steph had one of the deepest rosters in the league and he was outplayed by Jokic missing Murray, Mpj and Kcp in their series too

Anyone who thought Jokic was on Bron or Mj level is deluded and most likely a teenager

Wait I thought it was impossible to beat a 50 win team without a star as a second option unless you were Lebron? Or we're calling Wiggins a star now?

Curry had a pretty deep supporting cast in 2022 even if he didn't have a clear number 2 star. They were just concentrated entirely on the defensive end so they get less credit

[parsnips33]

Steph had one of the deepest rosters in the league and he was outplayed by Jokic missing Murray, Mpj and Kcp in their series too

Anyone who thought Jokic was on Bron or Mj level is deluded and most likely a teenager

Wait I thought it was impossible to beat a 50 win team without a star as a second option unless you were Lebron? Or we're calling Wiggins a star now?

Curry had a pretty deep supporting cast in 2022 even if he didn't have a clear number 2 star. They were just concentrated entirely on the defensive end so they get less credit

I mean as much as people love the narratives - nobody is winning a ring by themselves

Was the 22 supporting cast notably deep compared to other championship teams?

[Special_Puppy]

Wait I thought it was impossible to beat a 50 win team without a star as a second option unless you were Lebron? Or we're calling Wiggins a star now?

Curry had a pretty deep supporting cast in 2022 even if he didn't have a clear number 2 star. They were just concentrated entirely on the defensive end so they get less credit

I mean as much as people love the narratives - nobody is winning a ring by themselves

Was the 22 supporting cast notably deep compared to other championship teams?

I'd say that Curry's supporting cast in 2022 was probably better than LeBron's in 2016+2020, Giannis's in 2021, and Jokic's in 2023.

[Cavsfansince84]

I mean as much as people love the narratives - nobody is winning a ring by themselves

Was the 22 supporting cast notably deep compared to other championship teams?

Teams that win titles don't exist in vacuums though. They just have to be better than the other teams trying to win a title that year.

[Cavsfansince84]

There's an average of 4 teams with an SRS of 5.0+ every year and pretty much every champion has an SRS of 5.0+. Not being able to beat a top 4 team when you are in talks for GOAT status is pretty damning.

5.0 is a prefect cutoff line. There is a huge sample size of how GOAT level players perform against teams with an SRS above and below 5.0, and there is a drastic difference between the two. Jokic is 8-1 against teams with an SRS below 5.0. Jordan is 16-0. Curry is 17-1. Kobe is 20-1. LeBron is 37-3. Thats a combined 98-6 (94.23%). We shouldn't be shocked when these GOAT level players beat non contenders in the playoffs (SRS below 5.0). They aren't challenged at that level. Those same 5 players are 38-33 (soon to be 38-34?) against teams with an SRS of 5.0+.

Former MVP's and their playoffs record against teams with an SRS of 5+

Obviously Jokic still has a lot of time, though. Jordan started 1-6 and followed that up with 14-1 to finish 15-7.

Maybe I shouldn't say meaningless but there's a lot of context which gets missed when stats like that are just thrown out there and expected to mean something by themselves.

[parsnips33]

I mean as much as people love the narratives - nobody is winning a ring by themselves

Was the 22 supporting cast notably deep compared to other championship teams?

Teams that win titles don't exist in vacuums though. They just have to be better than the other teams trying to win a title that year.

Agree with this, but I think I might be missing your point

[ShotCreator]

Wait I thought it was impossible to beat a 50 win team without a star as a second option unless you were Lebron? Or we're calling Wiggins a star now?

Curry had a pretty deep supporting cast in 2022 even if he didn't have a clear number 2 star. They were just concentrated entirely on the defensive end so they get less credit

I mean as much as people love the narratives - nobody is winning a ring by themselves

Was the 22 supporting cast notably deep compared to other championship teams?

Well you possibly had the best perimeter defender in an era in pre-abdomen strain GP2. and he was finishing at the rim like peak DeAndre Jordan, and shooting well from 3.... And again he got 7th man minutes. So yeah I would say so. I mean Curry was pretty excellent in the year before in 2021 and they couldn't even get a playoff bid. Teammates matter, a lot.

As far as it relates to Denver's performance right now, Minnesota clearly has something special going. They don't particularly remind me of too many teams, but it's hard to exaggerate how well they are playing, They had a -7 defense in the RS, their defense has been every bit as good and now the offense is high level led BY Edwards and Towns. The only big that ranked higher than KAT's best RS offensive impact metrics going back years, is Jokic, That's an ATG team.

[parsnips33]

Curry had a pretty deep supporting cast in 2022 even if he didn't have a clear number 2 star. They were just concentrated entirely on the defensive end so they get less credit

I mean as much as people love the narratives - nobody is winning a ring by themselves

Was the 22 supporting cast notably deep compared to other championship teams?

I'd say that Curry's supporting cast in 2022 was probably better than LeBron's in 2016+2020, Giannis's in 2021, and Jokic's in 2023.

the 2020 Lakers supporting cast lead by Anthony Davis??

I'm with you on the Nuggets, but not sure I agree on the other examples