Better peak: Kevin Garnett vs Nikola Jokic

[MyUniBroDavis]

I too can be belligerent at times like I was with 70sFan earlier in this thread arguing about what I thought were inconsistent arguments in favor of KG's defense but used to summarily dismiss Jokic's. I think we can all agree that analyzing players is difficult and should require an array of different approaches. Discussions like these go into the shithole when each side retreats into their own "intellectual" tribes and talks past what others have to say.

It goes there when Jordan or lebron get brought up and they aren’t in the thread at all too lol

[OhayoKD]

Please enlighten me. What was the statement that you think I said?

I think it's interesting that KG's bad Wolves teammates are used as a crutch for him (which I agree with) but by the same token, his on/off and impact stats, which would benefit from him playing on a dysfunctional team, is also used to propel him.

I don’t hold the ringz argument against KG. And I know that stats like RAPM try to isolate individual impact while taking into account teammate quality. I’m just more skeptical about using these stats as the be all and end all.

A lot of the arguments highlighting KG's impact in those Minny years were using on/off, which would for sure would be impacted by the quality of his back-up and other teammates. As for RAPM, I'm skeptical of using it as a catch-all number to evaluate individual impact.

You are essentially saying you are skeptical of everything to do with Impact data, yet KG is an Impact GOD with a multitude of casts [Poor casts like 2001-2002, 2005-2007 and then Strong casts like 2004 and 2008-2011].

You know I recognize I’m a dick but saying he has nothing to contribute because he thinks bad teammates can increase RAPM and impact isn’t really fair lol

Don’t know how much I agree it’s as relevant for KG in particular, or more relevant than with Jokic in some regards, but still, even though I’d take Jokic here pretty comfortably.

That is a much weaker position than the one they actually took and both you and peregrine know that

I think it's interesting that KG's bad Wolves teammates are used as a crutch for him (which I agree with) but by the same token, his on/off and impact stats, which would benefit from him playing on a dysfunctional team, is also used to propel him

[Jaivl]

Is this conjecture or based on something? Cause his efficiency and usage off steals (closest approximation of "transition scoring" I could quickly scrape) are identical in the playoffs and in Boston (if anything he gets *better* in Boston, especially in the playoffs), and his shot profile is also very similar.

What website shows this stat?

pbpstats, posession finder.

[MyUniBroDavis]

You are essentially saying you are skeptical of everything to do with Impact data, yet KG is an Impact GOD with a multitude of casts [Poor casts like 2001-2002, 2005-2007 and then Strong casts like 2004 and 2008-2011].

You know I recognize I’m a dick but saying he has nothing to contribute because he thinks bad teammates can increase RAPM and impact isn’t really fair lol

Don’t know how much I agree it’s as relevant for KG in particular, or more relevant than with Jokic in some regards, but still, even though I’d take Jokic here pretty comfortably.

That is a much weaker position than the one they actually took and both you and peregrine know that

I think it's interesting that KG's bad Wolves teammates are used as a crutch for him (which I agree with) but by the same token, his on/off and impact stats, which would benefit from him playing on a dysfunctional team, is also used to propel him

This is literally the same thing

[OhayoKD]

You know I recognize I’m a dick but saying he has nothing to contribute because he thinks bad teammates can increase RAPM and impact isn’t really fair lol

Don’t know how much I agree it’s as relevant for KG in particular, or more relevant than with Jokic in some regards, but still, even though I’d take Jokic here pretty comfortably.

That is a much weaker position than the one they actually took and both you and peregrine know that

I think it's interesting that KG's bad Wolves teammates are used as a crutch for him (which I agree with) but by the same token, his on/off and impact stats, which would benefit from him playing on a dysfunctional team, is also used to propel him

This is literally the same thing

"would" is not the same thing as "could" and a claim about a specific player is not the same thing as a general claim.

This is literally basic reading.

[MyUniBroDavis]

That is a much weaker position than the one they actually took and both you and peregrine know that

This is literally the same thing

"would" is not the same thing as "could" and a claim about a specific player is not the same thing as a general claim.

This is literally basic reading.

No way ur nitpicking a letter

[OhayoKD]

This is literally the same thing

"would" is not the same thing as "could" and a claim about a specific player is not the same thing as a general claim.

This is literally basic reading.

No way ur nitpicking a letter

No way you're using "nitpick" for
-> asserting a general possiblity rather than asserting a probablity for a specific player
-> implying everyone else is contradicting themselves

It's not a nitpick and you know it. They were dead wrong because they don't understand how impact stats work and doubled down instead of acknowledging his mistake.

[MyUniBroDavis]

"would" is not the same thing as "could" and a claim about a specific player is not the same thing as a general claim.

This is literally basic reading.

No way ur nitpicking a letter

No way you're using "nitpick" for
-> asserting a general possiblity rather than asserting a probablity for a specific player
-> implying everyone else is contradicting themselves

It's not a nitpick and you know it. They were dead wrong because they don't understand how impact stats work and doubled down instead of acknowledging his mistake.

All of this because of a letter is wild lmao it is not that deep

[OhayoKD]

No way ur nitpicking a letter

No way you're using "nitpick" for
-> asserting a general possiblity rather than asserting a probablity for a specific player
-> implying everyone else is contradicting themselves

It's not a nitpick and you know it. They were dead wrong because they don't understand how impact stats work and doubled down instead of acknowledging his mistake.

All of this because of a letter is wild lmao it is not that deep

-_-

[falcolombardi]

Yeah I think might be a good time to bring this back to the Jordan analogy from the "kg can't lead good d without thibs" thread

MJ, in his 20's, prior to Phil Jackson's arrival...

-> joined a 27-win team(likely better support that Garnett had)
-> failed to hit .500 in his first 3 seasons
-> tapped out at 50(A mark KG exceeded not once, not twice, not thrice, but four times)
-> saw his team regress to 47-wins(kg hit that 6 times) the next year after losing his best teammate(and gaining significantly more in return)
-> Fortunes change when Phil Jackson implements the triangle, a system that is far more tied to Mike's success than Thibs is tied to KG's(Boston continued to post all-time defense after thibs left)

I'm going to guess none of this actually plays much of a factor in how peregrine evaluates Mike. Because "kg missed the playoffs" is more just a way to get where they want to go, rather than an honest attempt at analyzing what he offered as a basketball player

Well isn't the consensus increasingly that KG peaked hire than MJ?

It wouldn’t surprise me if there are people whom see it like that (the argument has been laid out to). From an impact standpoint (looking at standardized approaches), KG has the best season recorded in the eyes of some APM metrics. I’m still concerned as to how he scales up - where his playoff offensive and “on” ratings are more questionable and he doesn’t look quite the same statistical outlier. Big-men (era relative value and goodness sense) whom I see as a goat level peak with case over Jordan:

• Russell 1962
• Kareem 1977
• Hakeem 1994
• Shaq 2000

Not laying out a definitive ranking, but I’m cool with explaining why these seasons are campaigns I regard at the upper-most level of player value. Perhaps this optimally falls under a different thread..

I agree with the playoffs resiliency concerns over garnett as well as some doubts about whether he really would be better today than in his own time as in the modern game the ceiling of a individual defense impact seens just lower than that of a individual player offense compared to earlier eras

That said, what garnett did with the 04 celtics that basically had one fairly good player (cassel) and were a fairly weak team otherwise in both starters and depth is fairly remarkable regular season wise (and still took 2 games of lakers without cassel fwiw)

Is why i can see garnett as a goat ish regular season peak up there with regular season 88-91 jordan, 16 curry, etc and anyone whose name is not 2009 and 2010 lebron (who is basivally a league of his own)

[Domejandro]

I have Nikola Jokić here. I tend to think Kevin Garnett gets underrated (I am more-so in the drza camp of having Kevin Garnett in my top ten of all time), but Jokić is having a GOAT-level offensive peak.

I do think that Kevin Garnett in today’s game (replacing the Flip Saunders 22-footers with three-point attempts and increased facilitation opportunities) could have developed better than he already was, but that’s impossible to prove.

To edit in a comment on Playoff resiliency, I think looking at Kevin Garnett’s stats needs to maintain the context that Minnesota deployed defenses where Kevin Garnett would start at the point of attack and then roam as a helper in a weird, pseudo box-zone scheme. On mobile, so I can’t type out the details, but the defensive load that he had to take on with his defensively inept teammates was pretty horrifying, especially with the amount of minutes he played. Kevin Garnett’s time in Minnesota was bizarre.

[OhayoKD]

Well isn't the consensus increasingly that KG peaked hire than MJ?

It wouldn’t surprise me if there are people whom see it like that (the argument has been laid out to). From an impact standpoint (looking at standardized approaches), KG has the best season recorded in the eyes of some APM metrics. I’m still concerned as to how he scales up - where his playoff offensive and “on” ratings are more questionable and he doesn’t look quite the same statistical outlier. Big-men (era relative value and goodness sense) whom I see as a goat level peak with case over Jordan:

• Russell 1962
• Kareem 1977
• Hakeem 1994
• Shaq 2000

Not laying out a definitive ranking, but I’m cool with explaining why these seasons are campaigns I regard at the upper-most level of player value. Perhaps this optimally falls under a different thread..

I agree with the playoffs resiliency concerns over garnett as well as some doubts about whether he really would be better today than in his own time as in the modern game the ceiling of a individual defense impact seens just lower than that of a individual player offense compared to earlier eras

That said, what garnett did with the 04 celtics that basically had one fairly good player (cassel) and were a fairly weak team otherwise in both starters and depth is fairly remarkable regular season wise (and still took 2 games of lakers without cassel fwiw)

Is why i can see garnett as a goat ish regular season peak up there with regular season 88-91 jordan, 16 curry, etc and anyone whose name is not 2009 and 2010 lebron (who is basivally a league of his own)

The 04 Timberwolves --with Cassell-- weren't really any worse in the playoffs(probably higher by rolling psrs actually). It's also ignore to ping 2004 KG specifically on playoff resliency based on offense and on-court, and then ignore the 2000 Lakers defensive collapse, on-court collapse, and drop in overall performance:

Spoiler:

Playoff Offensive Rating: +8.68 (14th), Playoff Defensive Rating: +0.79 (97th)
Playoff SRS: +7.79 (96th), Total SRS Increase through Playoffs: -0.41 (99th)

The lakers fell off as much or more, saw the league-best defense become negative, with Shaq seeing a similar on-court collapse while posting worse on/off than KG.

If the delta in raw team success was not prohibitive for Garnett in the regular-season, then it's wierd for it to suddenly make shaq better in the playoffs.

Of course this isn't the first time even in this thread where offensive performance was cherrypicked to inflate a team performance tied to a much weaker defender...

[Peregrine01]

I have Nikola Jokić here. I tend to think Kevin Garnett gets underrated (I am more-so in the drza camp of having Kevin Garnett in my top ten of all time), but Jokić is having a GOAT-level offensive peak.

I do think that Kevin Garnett in today’s game (replacing the Flip Saunders 22-footers with three-point attempts and increased facilitation opportunities) could have developed better than he already was, but that’s impossible to prove.

To edit in a comment on Playoff resiliency, I think looking at Kevin Garnett’s stats needs to maintain the context that Minnesota deployed defenses where Kevin Garnett would start at the point of attack and then roam as a helper in a weird, pseudo box-zone scheme. On mobile, so I can’t type out the details, but the defensive load that he had to take on with his defensively inept teammates was pretty horrifying, especially with the amount of minutes he played. Kevin Garnett’s time in Minnesota was bizarre.

I think this makes another case for how important coaching is to a team's defense. I don't think it's all on KG or his teammates for Minny being an underwhelming defense for pretty much his entire career there. Coaching might have more to do with the strength of a team's defense than any single player. The Pistons went from a -8 and -6 defense in 2004 and 2005 with Larry Brown to a -3 and -2 defense in 2006 and 2007 when Flip took over. And the defensive regression became even larger in the playoffs.

One observation on the other side of the ball: it seems that the general thinking wrt KG's offense is that he needs to be paired with better offensive creators to maximize his value. But the Celts, which had relatively strong offensive rosters, put up the following rORTGs (relative to that year's playoff average) in their playoff runs:

2008: +2
2009: -1
2010: -4
2011: -1
2012: -3

Now I'm aware that KG was past his prime at this point and was not the focal point of the offense. Still, it's a stretch for me to think that a younger version of him would have yielded significantly different offensive results in whatever the context. He was a strong passer yes but it seems like his offensive impact was always held back by his lack of ability to beat his man, shoot the 3 or finish in the paint. And because he lacked these abilities, he wasn't able to pressure defenses as an offensive focal point nor was he able to really make defenses pay by working off the creation of others.

[homecourtloss]

One observation on the other side of the ball: it seems that the general thinking wrt KG's offense is that he needs to be paired with better offensive creators to maximize his value. But the Celts, which had relatively strong offensive rosters, put up the following rORTGs (relative to that year's playoff average) in their playoff runs:

2008: +2
2009: -1
2010: -4
2011: -1
2012: -3

Now I'm aware that KG was past his prime at this point and was not the focal point of the offense. Still, it's a stretch for me to think that a younger version of him would have yielded significantly different offensive results in whatever the context. He was a strong passer yes but it seems like his offensive impact was always held back by his lack of ability to beat his man, shoot the 3 or finish in the paint. And because he lacked these abilities, he wasn't able to pressure defenses as an offensive focal point nor was he able to really make defenses pay by working off the creation of others.

Are the bolded offenses with KG on court? As you know the Celtics were much better BOTH offensively and defensively with KG on court.

[Peregrine01]

One observation on the other side of the ball: it seems that the general thinking wrt KG's offense is that he needs to be paired with better offensive creators to maximize his value. But the Celts, which had relatively strong offensive rosters, put up the following rORTGs (relative to that year's playoff average) in their playoff runs:

2008: +2
2009: -1
2010: -4
2011: -1
2012: -3

Now I'm aware that KG was past his prime at this point and was not the focal point of the offense. Still, it's a stretch for me to think that a younger version of him would have yielded significantly different offensive results in whatever the context. He was a strong passer yes but it seems like his offensive impact was always held back by his lack of ability to beat his man, shoot the 3 or finish in the paint. And because he lacked these abilities, he wasn't able to pressure defenses as an offensive focal point nor was he able to really make defenses pay by working off the creation of others.

Are the bolded offenses with KG on court? As you know the Celtics were much better BOTH offensively and defensively with KG on court.

Total. I’m cautious about using on/off samples in individual playoff runs because of sample size. In 2009, he missed the entire playoffs so that might be the best indicator for what you’re looking for.

[WestGOAT]

I have Nikola Jokić here. I tend to think Kevin Garnett gets underrated (I am more-so in the drza camp of having Kevin Garnett in my top ten of all time), but Jokić is having a GOAT-level offensive peak.

I do think that Kevin Garnett in today’s game (replacing the Flip Saunders 22-footers with three-point attempts and increased facilitation opportunities) could have developed better than he already was, but that’s impossible to prove.

To edit in a comment on Playoff resiliency, I think looking at Kevin Garnett’s stats needs to maintain the context that Minnesota deployed defenses where Kevin Garnett would start at the point of attack and then roam as a helper in a weird, pseudo box-zone scheme. On mobile, so I can’t type out the details, but the defensive load that he had to take on with his defensively inept teammates was pretty horrifying, especially with the amount of minutes he played. Kevin Garnett’s time in Minnesota was bizarre.

I think this makes another case for how important coaching is to a team's defense. I don't think it's all on KG or his teammates for Minny being an underwhelming defense for pretty much his entire career there. Coaching might have more to do with the strength of a team's defense than any single player. The Pistons went from a -8 and -6 defense in 2004 and 2005 with Larry Brown to a -3 and -2 defense in 2006 and 2007 when Flip took over. And the defensive regression became even larger in the playoffs.

One observation on the other side of the ball: it seems that the general thinking wrt KG's offense is that he needs to be paired with better offensive creators to maximize his value. But the Celts, which had relatively strong offensive rosters, put up the following rORTGs (relative to that year's playoff average) in their playoff runs:

2008: +2
2009: -1
2010: -4
2011: -1
2012: -3

Now I'm aware that KG was past his prime at this point and was not the focal point of the offense. Still, it's a stretch for me to think that a younger version of him would have yielded significantly different offensive results in whatever the context. He was a strong passer yes but it seems like his offensive impact was always held back by his lack of ability to beat his man, shoot the 3 or finish in the paint. And because he lacked these abilities, he wasn't able to pressure defenses as an offensive focal point nor was he able to really make defenses pay by working off the creation of others.

Definitely agree NBA coaching staffs are not given enough considerations when doing player comparisons. Best example is the Spurs 2016/2017 Spurs, how the **** do Spurs have #1 ranked RS defence back-to-back with LMA as your main rim-protector.

Would love to see one day someone compile Team ORtg/DRtg grouped by NBA coach.

[homecourtloss]

One observation on the other side of the ball: it seems that the general thinking wrt KG's offense is that he needs to be paired with better offensive creators to maximize his value. But the Celts, which had relatively strong offensive rosters, put up the following rORTGs (relative to that year's playoff average) in their playoff runs:

2008: +2
2009: -1
2010: -4
2011: -1
2012: -3

Now I'm aware that KG was past his prime at this point and was not the focal point of the offense. Still, it's a stretch for me to think that a younger version of him would have yielded significantly different offensive results in whatever the context. He was a strong passer yes but it seems like his offensive impact was always held back by his lack of ability to beat his man, shoot the 3 or finish in the paint. And because he lacked these abilities, he wasn't able to pressure defenses as an offensive focal point nor was he able to really make defenses pay by working off the creation of others.

Are the bolded offenses with KG on court? As you know the Celtics were much better BOTH offensively and defensively with KG on court.

Total. I’m cautious about using on/off samples in individual playoff runs because of sample size. In 2009, he missed the entire playoffs so that might be the best indicator for what you’re looking for.

We have a decent sized off minutes from 2008 to 2012 (i.e., 2800 minutes ON, 1700 minutes OFF)



Celtics were quite a bit better offensively (and defensively, of course), so these numbers you have for the Celtics’ rORtg are overly harsh on KG.

If we use PBPstats (NBA.com has the exact numbers but then the league playoffs average ORtg would be different so for ease):

2008 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 111.17; without KG, 99.16. With KG, that looks like a +3.8 rORtg with KG if using BKREF playoffs’ ORtg numbers

2009 didn’t play, Boston a -1.4 rORtg

2010 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 105.36; without KG, 103.21; that’s a -3.2 rORtg with KG

2011 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 110.45; without KG, 93.0; that’s a +4.5 rORtg with KG

2012 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 102.51; without KG, 92.59; that’s a -1.1 rORtg with KG

[MyUniBroDavis]

Are the bolded offenses with KG on court? As you know the Celtics were much better BOTH offensively and defensively with KG on court.

Total. I’m cautious about using on/off samples in individual playoff runs because of sample size. In 2009, he missed the entire playoffs so that might be the best indicator for what you’re looking for.

We have a decent sized off minutes from 2008 to 2012 (i.e., 2800 minutes ON, 1700 minutes OFF)



Celtics were quite a bit better offensively (and defensively, of course), so these numbers you have for the Celtics’ rORtg are overly harsh on KG.

If we use PBPstats (NBA.com has the exact numbers but then the league playoffs average ORtg would be different so for ease):

2008 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 111.17; without KG, 99.16. With KG, that looks like a +3.8 rORtg with KG if using BKREF playoffs’ ORtg numbers

2009 didn’t play, Boston a -1.4 rORtg

2010 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 105.36; without KG, 103.21; that’s a -3.2 rORtg with KG

2011 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 110.45; without KG, 93.0; that’s a +4.5 rORtg with KG

2012 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 102.51; without KG, 92.59; that’s a -1.1 rORtg with KG

This would be comparing KG’s on court to other teams total performance though right

[OhayoKD]

Are the bolded offenses with KG on court? As you know the Celtics were much better BOTH offensively and defensively with KG on court.

Total. I’m cautious about using on/off samples in individual playoff runs because of sample size. In 2009, he missed the entire playoffs so that might be the best indicator for what you’re looking for.

We have a decent sized off minutes from 2008 to 2012 (i.e., 2800 minutes ON, 1700 minutes OFF)



Celtics were quite a bit better offensively (and defensively, of course), so these numbers you have for the Celtics’ rORtg are overly harsh on KG.

If we use PBPstats (NBA.com has the exact numbers but then the league playoffs average ORtg would be different so for ease):

2008 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 111.17; without KG, 99.16. With KG, that looks like a +3.8 rORtg with KG if using BKREF playoffs’ ORtg numbers

2009 didn’t play, Boston a -1.4 rORtg

2010 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 105.36; without KG, 103.21; that’s a -3.2 rORtg with KG

2011 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 110.45; without KG, 93.0; that’s a +4.5 rORtg with KG

2012 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 102.51; without KG, 92.59; that’s a -1.1 rORtg with KG

Don't forget the Team was also functional which means KG's impact metrics must underrate him

I have Nikola Jokić here. I tend to think Kevin Garnett gets underrated (I am more-so in the drza camp of having Kevin Garnett in my top ten of all time), but Jokić is having a GOAT-level offensive peak.

I do think that Kevin Garnett in today’s game (replacing the Flip Saunders 22-footers with three-point attempts and increased facilitation opportunities) could have developed better than he already was, but that’s impossible to prove.

To edit in a comment on Playoff resiliency, I think looking at Kevin Garnett’s stats needs to maintain the context that Minnesota deployed defenses where Kevin Garnett would start at the point of attack and then roam as a helper in a weird, pseudo box-zone scheme. On mobile, so I can’t type out the details, but the defensive load that he had to take on with his defensively inept teammates was pretty horrifying, especially with the amount of minutes he played. Kevin Garnett’s time in Minnesota was bizarre.

I think this makes another case for how important coaching is to a team's defense. I don't think it's all on KG or his teammates for Minny being an underwhelming defense for pretty much his entire career there. Coaching might have more to do with the strength of a team's defense than any single player. The Pistons went from a -8 and -6 defense in 2004 and 2005 with Larry Brown to a -3 and -2 defense in 2006 and 2007 when Flip took over. And the defensive regression became even larger in the playoffs.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Maybe coaching has more to do with the strength of a team's offense than any single player...

Definitely agree NBA coaching staffs are not given enough considerations when doing player comparisons. Best example is the Spurs 2016/2017 Spurs, how the **** do Spurs have #1 ranked RS defence back-to-back with LMA as your main rim-protector.

Would love to see one day someone compile Team ORtg/DRtg grouped by NBA coach.

I'd say they're given more than enough consideration...when it's convenient

[Peregrine01]

Are the bolded offenses with KG on court? As you know the Celtics were much better BOTH offensively and defensively with KG on court.

Total. I’m cautious about using on/off samples in individual playoff runs because of sample size. In 2009, he missed the entire playoffs so that might be the best indicator for what you’re looking for.

We have a decent sized off minutes from 2008 to 2012 (i.e., 2800 minutes ON, 1700 minutes OFF)



Celtics were quite a bit better offensively (and defensively, of course), so these numbers you have for the Celtics’ rORtg are overly harsh on KG.

If we use PBPstats (NBA.com has the exact numbers but then the league playoffs average ORtg would be different so for ease):

2008 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 111.17; without KG, 99.16. With KG, that looks like a +3.8 rORtg with KG if using BKREF playoffs’ ORtg numbers

2009 didn’t play, Boston a -1.4 rORtg

2010 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 105.36; without KG, 103.21; that’s a -3.2 rORtg with KG

2011 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 110.45; without KG, 93.0; that’s a +4.5 rORtg with KG

2012 BOS PS ORtg: with KG, 102.51; without KG, 92.59; that’s a -1.1 rORtg with KG

Since KG, played so much with starters, his offensive impact using on/off is hard to parse. The 2009 playoffs is the only reasonably strong control sample since he was injured the whole playoffs and Boston posted a:

+2 ORTG against the Bulls DRTG in the regular season; and a
+1 ORTG against the Magic's DRTG in the regular season

For comparison, in 2008 and 2010, Boston posted the following ORTGs against the following respective defenses:

2008:
+7 ORTG against the Lakers
+8 ORTG against the Pistons
-5 ORTG against the Cavs
+8 ORTG against the Hawks

2010:
-2 ORTG against the Lakers
+2 ORTG against the Magic
+5 ORTG against the Cavs
+3 ORTG against the Heat

This averages out to a +3 ORTG for the above series. This might be overly simplistic but not exactly a huge improvement off the Celts' playoff offense in 2009 without KG.