2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[sp6r=underrated]

I'd give it a 1% chance of happening but if the Knicks can't make the finals my preferred finals at this point is Minnesota-Indiana just to see how the NBA would try to sell it.

[Colbinii]

I don't think the Wolves are better than the Celtics. The Celtics also have an amazing defense and I think they match-up better with Wolves than the Nuggets. You think the Celtics rather face Nuggets in the Finals?

The Current Nuggets who barely beat the Lakers and are getting clobbered by the Timberwolves? Yes I do.

I never said the Wolves are better than the Celtics, I said the Wolves are better than the Nuggets and have a bench advantage over the Celtics.

I mean okay.....I am talking about match-ups. I just feel the Celtics probably want Wolves in the Finals. Might be wrong but just a subjective take.

BTW if the Wolves make the Finals, you better believe I am going to be rooting for them hard

Our historically poverty-level franchise has many open seats on the Wagon.

[OhayoKD]

I don't think the Wolves are better than the Celtics. The Celtics also have an amazing defense and I think they match-up better with Wolves than the Nuggets. You think the Celtics rather face Nuggets in the Finals?

The Current Nuggets who barely beat the Lakers and are getting clobbered by the Timberwolves? Yes I do.

I never said the Wolves are better than the Celtics, I said the Wolves are better than the Nuggets and have a bench advantage over the Celtics.

I mean okay.....I am talking about match-ups. I just feel the Celtics probably want Wolves in the Finals. Might be wrong but just a subjective take.

BTW if the Wolves make the Finals, you better believe I am going to be rooting for them hard

Wolves should be title favorites at this point

[Colbinii]

I'd give it a 1% chance of happening but if the Knicks can't make the finals my preferred finals at this point is Minnesota-Indiana just to see how the NBA would try to sell it.

Aaron "3 Legs" Nesmith

[Special_Puppy]

TWolves fans deserve a dominant title run more than any FC in the NBA

[PaulieWal]

The Current Nuggets who barely beat the Lakers and are getting clobbered by the Timberwolves? Yes I do.

I never said the Wolves are better than the Celtics, I said the Wolves are better than the Nuggets and have a bench advantage over the Celtics.

I mean okay.....I am talking about match-ups. I just feel the Celtics probably want Wolves in the Finals. Might be wrong but just a subjective take.

BTW if the Wolves make the Finals, you better believe I am going to be rooting for them hard

Wolves should be title favorites at this point

Lol....Denver isn't even dead yet. People were acting the exact same way when Dallas was up 2-0 on Clippers 2 years ago and Clippers won in 7. I think Wolves close this in 5 or 6 but Jokic is too great where I wouldn't be surprised if he drags this to 7 and wins somehow.

[OhayoKD]

I mean okay.....I am talking about match-ups. I just feel the Celtics probably want Wolves in the Finals. Might be wrong but just a subjective take.

BTW if the Wolves make the Finals, you better believe I am going to be rooting for them hard

Wolves should be title favorites at this point

Lol....Denver isn't even dead yet. People were acting the exact same way when Dallas was up 2-0 on Clippers 2 years ago and Clippers won in 7. I think Wolves close this in 5 or 6 but Jokic is too great where I wouldn't be surprised if he drags this to 7 and wins somehow.

Does denver need to be dead for minny to have the best title odds?

[Special_Puppy]

Celtics are still title favorites BTW. Wolves been *insanely* impressive, but so have the Celtics

[PaulieWal]

Wolves should be title favorites at this point

Lol....Denver isn't even dead yet. People were acting the exact same way when Dallas was up 2-0 on Clippers 2 years ago and Clippers won in 7. I think Wolves close this in 5 or 6 but Jokic is too great where I wouldn't be surprised if he drags this to 7 and wins somehow.

Does denver need to be dead for minny to have the best title odds?

I'd say yes (not talking about what the Vegas odds are currently), just in my viewpoint.

[Texas Chuck]

It becomes about LeBron often because he's still very polarizing but like come on, saying Jokic is the best peak player since MJ is going to bring the knives out if you are getting embarrassed like this.

Criticism of his play in this series is obviously fair game. But the hot takes I told ya'll he sucks and these 2 games discredit everything he's done before is just silliness.

It's one thing if Jokic had never delivered in the playoffs. Fair then to question if his regular season dominance translates to the best defenses, coaches, and full-on gameplans to slow you. But he's already demonstrated what he can do.

This right now is small sample size theater against a very good defense. Shouldn't be any kind of referendum on Jokic. We had the same victory laps taken on Lebron after the 2011 Finals. Whoops.

[Colbinii]

Celtics are still title favorites BTW. Wolves been *insanely* impressive, but so have the Celtics

Celtics did look impressive against an 8-seed without their best/2nd best [I love Bam!] player

I don't know what Cleveland can do or if they can do anything, but I think the Knicks have more than a puncher's chance against the Celtics.

[PaulieWal]

Criticism of his play in this series is obviously fair game. But the hot takes I told ya'll he sucks and these 2 games discredit everything he's done before is just silliness.

You are preaching to the choir, I said earlier in this thread, both sides of those hot takes are wild. But I get why the knives are coming out to this extent because of the hot takes earlier building him up.

You damn well know if the Nuggets somehow win this we are going right back to, 'He's the first GOAT candidate since MJ or something"

[PaulieWal]

Celtics are still title favorites BTW. Wolves been *insanely* impressive, but so have the Celtics

Celtics did look impressive against an 8-seed without their best/2nd best [I love Bam!] player

I don't know what Cleveland can do or if they can do anything, but I think the Knicks have more than a puncher's chance against the Celtics.

Really? I feel Celtics take care of Knicks in 5 or 6. They have the personnel to hound Brunson and then what? Sixers and Pacers don't really have the defensive personnel to hound the Knicks. It took Mazzulla only two games to figure out to pressure the Heat guards, you do that with the Knicks and Brunson, I think they will be easy to beat.

[Special_Puppy]

Criticism of his play in this series is obviously fair game. But the hot takes I told ya'll he sucks and these 2 games discredit everything he's done before is just silliness.

You are preaching to the choir, I said earlier in this thread, both sides of those hot takes are wild. But I get why the knives are coming out to this extent because of the hot takes earlier building him up.

You damn well know if the Nuggets somehow win this we are going right back to, 'He's the first GOAT candidate since MJ or something"

The hot takes about him being "better than LeBron ever" was were coming from like 3 people lol. RealGM player ranking project only had him 26th before this season!

[Colbinii]

Celtics are still title favorites BTW. Wolves been *insanely* impressive, but so have the Celtics

Celtics did look impressive against an 8-seed without their best/2nd best [I love Bam!] player

I don't know what Cleveland can do or if they can do anything, but I think the Knicks have more than a puncher's chance against the Celtics.

Really? I feel Celtics take care of Knicks in 5 or 6. They have the personnel to hound Brunson and then what? Sixers and Pacers don't really have the defensive personnel to hound the Knicks. It took Mazzulla only two games to figure out to pressure the Heat guards, you do that with the Knicks and Brunson, I think they will be easy to beat.

The Knicks present a unique challenge for the Celtics and the Celtics may not have Zinger.

Hart/Donte/OG can really get into the body of the Celtics perimeter players while their back-line is big and strong.

White/Jrue should be able to contain Brunson much better than anyone on the 76ers/Pacers could though. I could see the series going 5 and I could see it going 7.

[sp6r=underrated]

Criticism of his play in this series is obviously fair game. But the hot takes I told ya'll he sucks and these 2 games discredit everything he's done before is just silliness.

You are preaching to the choir, I said earlier in this thread, both sides of those hot takes are wild. But I get why the knives are coming out to this extent because of the hot takes earlier building him up.

You damn well know if the Nuggets somehow win this we are going right back to, 'He's the first GOAT candidate since MJ or something"

The only people who will say "first GOAT candidate since MJ" are the Lebron haters.

Now the one bone I'll throw Jokic skeptics is the 2023 Nuggets did face the weakest group of opponents for any NBA champion since Magic/Larry came on the seen. Their 4 opponents had a combined SRS of 2.16 and the peak opponent was 2.08. That is beyond terrible competition.

But I see that as a data point for skepticism around the Nuggets rather than Jokic. Denver has a good coach but they haven't done a great building around Jokic.

[PaulieWal]

Criticism of his play in this series is obviously fair game. But the hot takes I told ya'll he sucks and these 2 games discredit everything he's done before is just silliness.

You are preaching to the choir, I said earlier in this thread, both sides of those hot takes are wild. But I get why the knives are coming out to this extent because of the hot takes earlier building him up.

You damn well know if the Nuggets somehow win this we are going right back to, 'He's the first GOAT candidate since MJ or something"

The hot takes about him being "better than LeBron ever" was were coming from like 3 people lol. RealGM player ranking project only had him 26th before this season!

Not talking about the PC board, there were literally multiple threads on GB before last night's game about Jokic being the best peak since MJ and couple of them were specifically about him being better than LeBron ever was (created after the 5 game series win over LA).

[Colbinii]

Criticism of his play in this series is obviously fair game. But the hot takes I told ya'll he sucks and these 2 games discredit everything he's done before is just silliness.

You are preaching to the choir, I said earlier in this thread, both sides of those hot takes are wild. But I get why the knives are coming out to this extent because of the hot takes earlier building him up.

You damn well know if the Nuggets somehow win this we are going right back to, 'He's the first GOAT candidate since MJ or something"

The only people who will say "first GOAT candidate since MJ" are the Lebron haters.

Now the one bone I'll throw Jokic skeptics is the 2023 Nuggets did face the weakest group of opponents for any NBA champion since Magic/Larry came on the seen. Their 4 opponents had a combined SRS of 2.16 and the peak opponent was 2.08. That is beyond terrible competition.

But I see that as a data point for skepticism around the Nuggets rather than Jokic. Denver has a good coach but they haven't done a great building around Jokic.

I already brought this up and the LeBron Hater's explained it away and of course, tried to provide context to each team's SRS.

I think KG could be number 1.

It's important to remember Jokic and the Nuggets didn't beat a single team better than the 2004 Sacramento Kings or 2004 Los Angeles Lakers.

In Fact, the SRS of the teams the Nuggets faced were pitiful.

-.22, 2.08, 0.43 and -.13. That's basically playing 4 low-end playoff teams.

I can only imagine the backlash of opponents SRS if it were LeBron.

I think we can all agree that SRS doesn't do a good job of capturing the quality of last year's opponents.

The version of LA that Denver played wasn't a 0.43 SRS team. They didn't play the team that started 2-10 with Westbrook, or a group missing LeBron/AD for nearly 30 games/piece. They played the post-tradeline version that was arguably the hottest team in the league.

The version of Miami they played wasn't a -0.13 team. That was a team that knocked off a 3.61 SRS, 2.99 SRS and 6.38 SRS.

Min was missing Towns most of the year, but he played against Denver, although Naz/Jaden didn't. Phoenix didn't have Durant the whole year but played against Denver, though they also didn't have time to gel with him either.

Every team they played was materially different from the overall season numbers. I can't think of a run where SRS would be less useful.

And then I address all the points, but the explanation isn't enough.

The version of LA that Denver played wasn't a 0.43 SRS team. They didn't play the team that started 2-10 with Westbrook, or a group missing LeBron/AD for nearly 30 games/piece. They played the post-tradeline version that was arguably the hottest team in the league.

Okay, what were they?

The Lakers literally beat a one-handed Ja Morant team while Ja played in just 5 games [and again, literally had 1 hand].

In round 2 the Lakers beat a 1.66 SRS Golden State Warriors team who in round 1 barely squeeked by a 2.30 SRS Sacramento Kings team.

The version of Miami they played wasn't a -0.13 team. That was a team that knocked off a 3.61 SRS, 2.99 SRS and 6.38 SRS.

This is because Miami was hot from 3 though. They weren't hot from 3 in the NBA FInals, which means Miami was very much a -0.13 team it the NBA Finals.

Min was missing Towns most of the year, but he played against Denver, although Naz/Jaden didn't. Phoenix didn't have Durant the whole year but played against Denver, though they also didn't have time to gel with him either.

Towns was putrid and Gobert was hurt most of last year with massive back pains.

Phoenix isn't any better this year with Durant [2.53 SRS this year, 2.08 last year].

Both of these teams RS SRS paints them accurately to their playoff levels last year.

Every team they played was materially different from the overall season numbers. I can't think of a run where SRS would be less useful.

I disagree. I don't see Miami, Minnesota or Phoenix being any different than their regular season SRS in the series they played Denver.

Like come on. None of these teams [Minnesota, Miami, Lakers, Phoenix] were actual title contenders or close to it.

SRS may not be perfect, but let's not pretend this was some amazing run Denver did. They played mediocre [at best] playoff teams.

[OhayoKD]

It becomes about LeBron often because he's still very polarizing but like come on, saying Jokic is the best peak player since MJ is going to bring the knives out if you are getting embarrassed like this.

Criticism of his play in this series is obviously fair game. But the hot takes I told ya'll he sucks and these 2 games discredit everything he's done before is just silliness.

It's one thing if Jokic had never delivered in the playoffs. Fair then to question if his regular season dominance translates to the best defenses, coaches, and full-on gameplans to slow you.

Jokic defenders selective amnesia about the postseasons preceding 2023 never gets old.

[sp6r=underrated]

You are preaching to the choir, I said earlier in this thread, both sides of those hot takes are wild. But I get why the knives are coming out to this extent because of the hot takes earlier building him up.

You damn well know if the Nuggets somehow win this we are going right back to, 'He's the first GOAT candidate since MJ or something"

The only people who will say "first GOAT candidate since MJ" are the Lebron haters.

Now the one bone I'll throw Jokic skeptics is the 2023 Nuggets did face the weakest group of opponents for any NBA champion since Magic/Larry came on the seen. Their 4 opponents had a combined SRS of 2.16 and the peak opponent was 2.08. That is beyond terrible competition.

But I see that as a data point for skepticism around the Nuggets rather than Jokic. Denver has a good coach but they haven't done a great building around Jokic.

I already brought this up and the LeBron Hater's explained it away and of course, tried to provide context to each team's SRS.

I think KG could be number 1.

It's important to remember Jokic and the Nuggets didn't beat a single team better than the 2004 Sacramento Kings or 2004 Los Angeles Lakers.

In Fact, the SRS of the teams the Nuggets faced were pitiful.

-.22, 2.08, 0.43 and -.13. That's basically playing 4 low-end playoff teams.

I can only imagine the backlash of opponents SRS if it were LeBron.

I think we can all agree that SRS doesn't do a good job of capturing the quality of last year's opponents.

The version of LA that Denver played wasn't a 0.43 SRS team. They didn't play the team that started 2-10 with Westbrook, or a group missing LeBron/AD for nearly 30 games/piece. They played the post-tradeline version that was arguably the hottest team in the league.

The version of Miami they played wasn't a -0.13 team. That was a team that knocked off a 3.61 SRS, 2.99 SRS and 6.38 SRS.

Min was missing Towns most of the year, but he played against Denver, although Naz/Jaden didn't. Phoenix didn't have Durant the whole year but played against Denver, though they also didn't have time to gel with him either.

Every team they played was materially different from the overall season numbers. I can't think of a run where SRS would be less useful.

And then I address all the points, but the explanation isn't enough.

The version of LA that Denver played wasn't a 0.43 SRS team. They didn't play the team that started 2-10 with Westbrook, or a group missing LeBron/AD for nearly 30 games/piece. They played the post-tradeline version that was arguably the hottest team in the league.

Okay, what were they?

The Lakers literally beat a one-handed Ja Morant team while Ja played in just 5 games [and again, literally had 1 hand].

In round 2 the Lakers beat a 1.66 SRS Golden State Warriors team who in round 1 barely squeeked by a 2.30 SRS Sacramento Kings team.

The version of Miami they played wasn't a -0.13 team. That was a team that knocked off a 3.61 SRS, 2.99 SRS and 6.38 SRS.

This is because Miami was hot from 3 though. They weren't hot from 3 in the NBA FInals, which means Miami was very much a -0.13 team it the NBA Finals.

Min was missing Towns most of the year, but he played against Denver, although Naz/Jaden didn't. Phoenix didn't have Durant the whole year but played against Denver, though they also didn't have time to gel with him either.

Towns was putrid and Gobert was hurt most of last year with massive back pains.

Phoenix isn't any better this year with Durant [2.53 SRS this year, 2.08 last year].

Both of these teams RS SRS paints them accurately to their playoff levels last year.

Every team they played was materially different from the overall season numbers. I can't think of a run where SRS would be less useful.

I disagree. I don't see Miami, Minnesota or Phoenix being any different than their regular season SRS in the series they played Denver.

Like come on. None of these teams [Minnesota, Miami, Lakers, Phoenix] were actual title contenders or close to it.

SRS may not be perfect, but let's not pretend this was some amazing run Denver did. They played mediocre [at best] playoff teams.

I'm in basic agreement with your stance. Even under the most charitable light that was a weak core of teams they played. Now I have Lebron as the clear GOAT. For me the gap between him and #2 is greater than the gap from 2-4.

But I will say Lebron's teams did benefit for part of the Eastern years with how weak their first/second round competition was. There was a stretch for Miami where they kind of had a slightly harder version of what Showtime had: hard final competition but mostly soft conference opponents. And I think a lot of fans under-appreciate the benefit of playing 1-2 SRS clubs rather than 3-4 SRS clubs.