2023-24 NBA Season Discussion

[OhayoKD]

Way too many people using this series as an excuse to dump on Jokic and not enough people appreciating what Ant Man is doing. This is 2001 Kobe/2007 Lebron stuff we're witnessing from him. Absolute all-time Age-22 playoff run in the making.

Giannis was blasted as not being top 5 in 2019 after a narrow conference finals loss to the eventual champs with a team that is .500 without him with cold shooting and a much worse coach.

Jokic is having a worse series than any from Giannis's prime and the majority of posters here are rallying to his defense about how unfair it is to use anything but 2023 to evaluate him and how he's the bitw.

If this is too much criticism, Jokic isn't good enough for people to talk about him the way they do. 3 x MVP without a single 60-win season, called the clear best in the league/goat candidate with 2 deep playoff runs, the first of which had his own teammate outplay him.

What Jokic is, is an overrated player. His ball-handling is proving to be a major weakness with the right matchups and we knew as early as 2020 his defense was a crippling weakness against the right matchups, but 'advanced stats' loved him, and apparently real impact data is just variance, and we should give him extra points for holding the ball less, and his brain makes his defense a non-isssue.

His defenders here are more interested in saying "jokic is being treated unfairly" than actually defending him and it's obvious why.

[Doctor MJ]

Way too many people using this series as an excuse to dump on Jokic and not enough people appreciating what Ant Man is doing. This is 2001 Kobe/2007 Lebron stuff we're witnessing from him. Absolute all-time Age-22 playoff run in the making.

Giannis was blasted as not being top 5 in 2019 after a narrow conference finals loss to the eventual champs with a team that is .500 without him with cold shooting and a much worse coach.

By someone I'm sure, but Who? and How seriously should they be taken?

On this board he got named 2nd in POY behind Kawhi in a very close race (Kawhi got .736 shares, Giannis .700).

To be clear: I do expect Jokic to get harder than this in the voting if things continue in this series as they are so I'm not looking to equate them, and absolutely expect that Jokic will get blasted by folks...but if you feel compelled to focus on blasting Jokic because you some others blast another guy, I might suggest that on the internet everyone gets blasted all the time, and it's more a question of whether you want to be a blaster, or you want to focus on other things.

[Ron Swanson]

Well, sure. I expect Jokic to be better and I don't think Denver goes out with a whimper quite yet, but if he continues his scoring struggles (54% TS) while also having Minnesota clamp up his play-making edge like this (17 assists to 11 turnovers so far), then that absolutely opens up the door to criticism that can't simply be blamed on his teammates anymore.

If we're gonna have a serious conversation about his "GOAT offensive player" credentials, then this and the 2021 semis vs. PHX are the kind of series that become pretty damning, and ultimately why a lot of people prefer two-way impact as a prerequisite for the GOAT tier/candidacy. But again, it's only been 2-games, albeit very poor showings in each. Still gotta let the series play out.

[OhayoKD]

[

Luka's on/off didn't look much better last year compared to the year before, and it didn't look great this year until the midseason trades. Absolutely fine to zoom in on how nice Luka's on/off data looked after those trades, and to say that if this continues Luka's +/- based candidacy for future MVPs may basically write itself, but getting from "What's wrong with Luka's on/off?" to "Luka's on/off looks great!" wasn't as simple as getting rid of Brunson...despite the fact that I was kind of expecting it to before last season began.

Look if the question is Luka Doncic as good of a player as the video game numbers imply I'm right there with you as a skeptic. I think those numbers absolutely overstate how good he is.

but then we have some more interesting data points that are pretty compelling. Quality of shots created for teammates is a stat Luka has led the league in for 3 straight years leading into this one and of course he's at the top in quantity too. This tells me as an offensive engine you could do a lot worse than Luka.

on/off tends to inflate the actual effect of 'fit" issues. Bad fit and all, Luka has basically averaged jordan/magic/hakeem game-level lift over a bunch of >10 game season samples for his first 5 years, and we know his ratings are basically unaffected with bench players and without starters.

"+/-" is not the whole of impact analysis and the assumption there is a core problem with his game when it could just be staggering with capable playmakers is premature.

The NHL used this stat for a long time..

NHL's +/- is a completely different stat from basketball +/-. NHL +/- is just tallying up chosen positive and negative actions and subtracting the latter from the former. It's basically a less discriminatory PER, not an impact stat.

[Special_Puppy]

Way too many people using this series as an excuse to dump on Jokic and not enough people appreciating what Ant Man is doing. This is 2001 Kobe/2007 Lebron stuff we're witnessing from him. Absolute all-time Age-22 playoff run in the making.

Giannis was blasted as not being top 5 in 2019 after a narrow conference finals loss to the eventual champs with a team that is .500 without him with cold shooting and a much worse coach.

Jokic is having a worse series than any from Giannis's prime and the majority of posters here are rallying to his defense about how unfair it is to use anything but 2023 to evaluate him and how he's the bitw.

If this is too much criticism, Jokic isn't good enough for people to talk about him the way they do. 3 x MVP without a single 60-win season, called the clear best in the league/goat candidate with 2 deep playoff runs, the first of which had his own teammate outplay him.

What Jokic is, is an overrated player. His ball-handling is proving to be a major weakness with the right matchups and we knew as early as 2020 his defense was a crippling weakness against the right matchups, but 'advanced stats' loved him, and apparently real impact data is just variance, and we should give him extra points for holding the ball less, and his brain makes his defense a non-isssue.

His defenders here are more interested in saying "jokic is being treated unfairly" than actually defending him and it's obvious why.

What’s “real” impact data lmao

[Special_Puppy]

Way too many people using this series as an excuse to dump on Jokic and not enough people appreciating what Ant Man is doing. This is 2001 Kobe/2007 Lebron stuff we're witnessing from him. Absolute all-time Age-22 playoff run in the making.

Giannis was blasted as not being top 5 in 2019 after a narrow conference finals loss to the eventual champs with a team that is .500 without him with cold shooting and a much worse coach.

Jokic is having a worse series than any from Giannis's prime and the majority of posters here are rallying to his defense about how unfair it is to use anything but 2023 to evaluate him and how he's the bitw.

If this is too much criticism, Jokic isn't good enough for people to talk about him the way they do. 3 x MVP without a single 60-win season, called the clear best in the league/goat candidate with 2 deep playoff runs, the first of which had his own teammate outplay him.

What Jokic is, is an overrated player. His ball-handling is proving to be a major weakness with the right matchups and we knew as early as 2020 his defense was a crippling weakness against the right matchups, but 'advanced stats' loved him, and apparently real impact data is just variance, and we should give him extra points for holding the ball less, and his brain makes his defense a non-isssue.

His defenders here are more interested in saying "jokic is being treated unfairly" than actually defending him and it's obvious why.

“without a single 60-win season, called the clear best in the league/goat candidate with 2 deep playoff runs“. I don’t think Jokić is a GOAT or Offensive GOAT candidate, but this is just really silly criticism. He’s never had a particularly great supporting cast in the regular season so I’m not sure why you’d expect his team to win 60 games. His supporting cast has been hammered by injuries for the last 3 out of 4 years and the one year they were healthy they immediately won a championship

[AEnigma]

The NHL used this stat for a long time..

NHL's +/- is a completely different stat from basketball +/-. NHL +/- is just tallying up chosen positive and negative actions and subtracting the latter from the former. It's basically a less discriminatory PER, not an impact stat.

… No, it is point differential when you are on the ice, just like in basketball, and the NHL has been tracking it since the 1960s. To whatever extent there may be modifications, it has to do with scoring dynamics that are not present in basketball (e.g. power plays).

[OhayoKD]

Way too many people using this series as an excuse to dump on Jokic and not enough people appreciating what Ant Man is doing. This is 2001 Kobe/2007 Lebron stuff we're witnessing from him. Absolute all-time Age-22 playoff run in the making.

Giannis was blasted as not being top 5 in 2019 after a narrow conference finals loss to the eventual champs with a team that is .500 without him with cold shooting and a much worse coach.

By someone I'm sure, but Who? and How seriously should they be taken?

On this board he got named 2nd in POY behind Kawhi in a very close race (Kawhi got .736 shares, Giannis .700).

To be clear: I do expect Jokic to get harder than this in the voting if things continue in this series as they are so I'm not looking to equate them, and absolutely expect that Jokic will get blasted by folks...but if you feel compelled to focus on blasting Jokic because you some others blast another guy, I might suggest that on the internet everyone gets blasted all the time, and it's more a question of whether you want to be a blaster, or you want to focus on other things.

In this case, with several pages of posters complaining there is criticism as opposed to engaging what is actually argued, I'd say blasting is the right thing to do, on balance we are short on blasters, and I feel a noblesse oblige to keep blasting.

Point taken on Giannis though. ]

Well, sure. I expect Jokic to be better and I don't think Denver goes out with a whimper quite yet, but if he continues his scoring struggles (54% TS) while also having Minnesota clamp up his play-making edge like this (17 assists to 11 turnovers so far), then that absolutely opens up the door to criticism that can't simply be blamed on his teammates anymore.

If we're gonna have a serious conversation about his "GOAT offensive player" credentials, then this and the 2021 semis vs. PHX are the kind of series that become pretty damning, and ultimately why a lot of people prefer two-way impact as a prerequisite for the GOAT tier/candidacy. But again, it's only been 2-games, albeit very poor showings in each. Still gotta let the series play out.

Even without those series, the lack of goat-level offense and/or signals of goat-level offensive improvement with him warranted serious discussion about his offensive-goat-candidacy imo. Of course plenty of "offensive goat" candidates get away with the latter component missing(Bird, Shaq, Jordan, Curry, ect) so it is what it is.

PS: The a:t is overstating him. He has been stocking up on stocktony/rondo assists for the last 4 games

[OhayoKD]

The NHL used this stat for a long time..

NHL's +/- is a completely different stat from basketball +/-. NHL +/- is just tallying up chosen positive and negative actions and subtracting the latter from the former. It's basically a less discriminatory PER, not an impact stat.

… No, it is point differential when you are on the ice, just like in basketball, and the NHL has been tracking it since the 1960s. To whatever extent there may be modifications, it has to do with scoring dynamics that are not present in basketball (e.g. power plays).

You right, I'm tripping

[ronnymac2]

The Celtics are the most overrated team in the league, by far. But beyond that, they are borderline unwatchable. It's just a stream of low-IQ garbage jump shots and decent but not great perimeter defense.

RE: The MVP. Congrats to Joker, but this was a poor decision on the league's part to give him his third this season. They need to spread the marketing love around, and giving it to a guy who literally just won MVPs or Finals MVPs three seasons in a row but isn't really ever going to be a major draw is a mistake IMHO. It's like giving Duncan two MVPs in a row.

Luka should have won. SGA wouldn't be bad either, as he seems like a good dude and will likely be popular with the younger generation and the more old-school thinkers alike. If Joker were to get a third, it'd have to be later in his career, in a weak MVP year, where they crown a legend after multiple titles or something.

This isn't a shot at Joker BTW. I think Jokic is the best basketball player in the world currently. I'm strictly talking about the MVP award.

[OhayoKD]

“without a single 60-win season, called the clear best in the league/goat candidate with 2 deep playoff runs“. I don’t think Jokić is a GOAT or Offensive GOAT candidate, but this is just really silly criticism. He’s never had a particularly great supporting cast in the regular season so I’m not sure why you’d expect his team to win 60 games. His supporting cast has been hammered by injuries for the last 3 out of 4 years and the one year they were healthy they immediately won a championship

The player he is allegedly held to the standard of won 66 and 61 games with less help including an 11-0 stretch without their best teammate in the 61 win season. That player then was much more competitive against a better version of the warriors team with a team that was weaker at base without and as banged up by the final in a down year.

The fact the convo about seasons where the Nuggets were postseason fodder ends with "they were banged up" is why he shouldn't be a goat candidate. Ditto for people saying 2019 and 2020 weren't prime Jokic so they can say things like "in the postseason he was healthy he won a championship!"

What’s “real” impact data lmao

Data which doesn't throw in human-picked and weighed inputs to bias the results.

[GSP]

I dont know if I should be pumped or worried that Derrick White has been our best playoff performer. Jayson has a lousy series offensively and Heat w/o Jimmy will be the worst defense by far that we see these playoffs unless Pacers somehow make Ecf

Of course we should be worried. We have multiple years of Tatum in the PS, and his limitations offensively are largely still the same. He's still a fringe top 10/probably not top 10 offensively guy, and we will need great camaraderie to continue to foster great offensive results, which is less needed for other teams that have true offensive anchors. Now with Porzingis out and not knowing how he will look when he gets back, it puts more onus on Tatum to provide efficient scoring that Porzingis generally provided.

Here he goes

All the ppl who were so confident in us strolling to the finals. Anyone seeing this team properly were worried about our "star" Jayson Tatum who has been the 3rd best Celtic this playoff run. If Mitchell is best player this series w/ no Kp we are **** losing man. Jayson has been **** mid all playoffs and when White isnt peak Klay he isnt getting bailed out this game

[OhayoKD]

meh, they should be fine

[LukaTheGOAT]

I dont know if I should be pumped or worried that Derrick White has been our best playoff performer. Jayson has a lousy series offensively and Heat w/o Jimmy will be the worst defense by far that we see these playoffs unless Pacers somehow make Ecf

Of course we should be worried. We have multiple years of Tatum in the PS, and his limitations offensively are largely still the same. He's still a fringe top 10/probably not top 10 offensively guy, and we will need great camaraderie to continue to foster great offensive results, which is less needed for other teams that have true offensive anchors. Now with Porzingis out and not knowing how he will look when he gets back, it puts more onus on Tatum to provide efficient scoring that Porzingis generally provided.

Here he goes

All the ppl who were so confident in us strolling to the finals. Anyone seeing this team properly were worried about our "star" Jayson Tatum who has been the 3rd best Celtic this playoff run. If Mitchell is best player this series w/ no Kp we are **** losing man. Jayson has been **** mid all playoffs and when White isnt peak Klay he isnt getting bailed out this game

This was Tatum's 2nd best scoring game if the playoffs...I still expect us to win even if Mitchell is the best player in the series, because of our roster talent.

Also it's like, who do people really think these guys are:

Celtics are now 16-15 at home in the postseason since 2022

These guys don't even dominate hime court and we're supposed to believe their some ATG powehouse?

[tsherkin]

Of course we should be worried. We have multiple years of Tatum in the PS, and his limitations offensively are largely still the same. He's still a fringe top 10/probably not top 10 offensively guy, and we will need great camaraderie to continue to foster great offensive results, which is less needed for other teams that have true offensive anchors. Now with Porzingis out and not knowing how he will look when he gets back, it puts more onus on Tatum to provide efficient scoring that Porzingis generally provided.

Here he goes

All the ppl who were so confident in us strolling to the finals. Anyone seeing this team properly were worried about our "star" Jayson Tatum who has been the 3rd best Celtic this playoff run. If Mitchell is best player this series w/ no Kp we are **** losing man. Jayson has been **** mid all playoffs and when White isnt peak Klay he isnt getting bailed out this game

This was Tatum's 2nd best scoring game if the playoffs...I still expect us to win even if Mitchell is the best player in the series, because of our roster talent.

Yeah, there are definitely other guys to blame more than Tatum for that one.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Here he goes

All the ppl who were so confident in us strolling to the finals. Anyone seeing this team properly were worried about our "star" Jayson Tatum who has been the 3rd best Celtic this playoff run. If Mitchell is best player this series w/ no Kp we are **** losing man. Jayson has been **** mid all playoffs and when White isnt peak Klay he isnt getting bailed out this game

This was Tatum's 2nd best scoring game if the playoffs...I still expect us to win even if Mitchell is the best player in the series, because of our roster talent.

Yeah, there are definitely other guys to blame more than Tatum for that one.

All I said was it is his 2nd best scoring games of the playoffs.

[Special_Puppy]

“without a single 60-win season, called the clear best in the league/goat candidate with 2 deep playoff runs“. I don’t think Jokić is a GOAT or Offensive GOAT candidate, but this is just really silly criticism. He’s never had a particularly great supporting cast in the regular season so I’m not sure why you’d expect his team to win 60 games. His supporting cast has been hammered by injuries for the last 3 out of 4 years and the one year they were healthy they immediately won a championship

The player he is allegedly held to the standard of won 66 and 61 games with less help including an 11-0 stretch without their best teammate in the 61 win season. That player then was much more competitive against a better version of the warriors team with a team that was weaker at base without and as banged up by the final in a down year.

The fact the convo about seasons where the Nuggets were postseason fodder ends with "they were banged up" is why he shouldn't be a goat candidate. Ditto for people saying 2019 and 2020 weren't prime Jokic so they can say things like "in the postseason he was healthy he won a championship!"

What’s “real” impact data lmao

Data which doesn't throw in human-picked and weighed inputs to bias the results.

I think Jokic's peak is a tier below LeBron's. What data isn't "throw in human-picked and weighted inputs to bias the results" that we can use to evaluate individual players?

[Special_Puppy]

The Celtics are the most overrated team in the league, by far. But beyond that, they are borderline unwatchable. It's just a stream of low-IQ garbage jump shots and decent but not great perimeter defense.

RE: The MVP. Congrats to Joker, but this was a poor decision on the league's part to give him his third this season. They need to spread the marketing love around, and giving it to a guy who literally just won MVPs or Finals MVPs three seasons in a row but isn't really ever going to be a major draw is a mistake IMHO. It's like giving Duncan two MVPs in a row.

Luka should have won. SGA wouldn't be bad either, as he seems like a good dude and will likely be popular with the younger generation and the more old-school thinkers alike. If Joker were to get a third, it'd have to be later in his career, in a weak MVP year, where they crown a legend after multiple titles or something.

This isn't a shot at Joker BTW. I think Jokic is the best basketball player in the world currently. I'm strictly talking about the MVP award.

Gonna be Jokic’s last MVP. They gonna spread the love around now

[tsherkin]

This was Tatum's 2nd best scoring game if the playoffs...I still expect us to win even if Mitchell is the best player in the series, because of our roster talent.

Yeah, there are definitely other guys to blame more than Tatum for that one.

All I said was it is his 2nd best scoring games of the playoffs.

Oh, I messed up the quote. That was to GSP.

[ronnymac2]

Felt like Kyrie was the best player on the court tonight.

Obviously I'm most interested in NYK vs. IND, but this OKC vs. DAL series is probably the most fun second round matchup for a neutral fan. Both teams are likable and exciting. Lot of good matchups.