Post Mortem 2023/24 - Orlando Magic (Eliminated in 1st Round)

[dygaction]

Get it done, Paolo and Magic.

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[Message Boar]

I'm really wondering what the 5 people that are voting for Treadmill/Plateaued/Maintaining are thinking. If this isn't a young team on the rise, when is a team ever? The Magic just had a 13 win improvement, going from out of the playoffs/playin completely to a 5-seed and coming very close to advancing to the second round.

My best guess is that the line of thinking is that this core will never win a championship as currently constructed, hence "treadmill", but teams are still rising and falling around the ~5 teams that can win a title in any given year. Also this team is so young that I wouldn't but a cap on their upside quite yet. Or it's just a couple of haters from certain fanbases (more likely)

[Mavrelous]

Matt Ishbia sould be sued for what he did to the pick tracking records...

[Astaluego]

Work with the Blazers.. Ayton+Simons for Carter+Cole... The Blazers save a ton of money and could still send Carter for assets (Cligan pick?)

,Magic improves and adjusts better,Simons is young and already one of the best shooters in the game...Ayton has all the tools...

[UcanUwill]

Keep, keep, better, treadmill.

How are they treadmill? Outside OKC, arguably the most promising young core in the league. This is definition of rising team. Can always screw it up in the NBA, but for what we currently know, looks like the team that is only going to get better and is here to stay for a while.

[cgf]

Lot of respect to Orlando for a great season. That team is long & tough as hell. Priority has to be getting a PG, something like:

Franz Wagner + Mo Wagner for Darius Garland
Anthony Black for DeJounte Murray
Overpay Immanuel Quickley in FA

[basketballRob]

Lot of respect to Orlando for a great season. That team is long & tough as hell. Priority has to be getting a PG, something like:

Franz Wagner + Mo Wagner for Darius Garland
Anthony Black for DeJounte Murray
Overpay Immanuel Quickley in FA

I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes $37m.

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[cgf]

Lot of respect to Orlando for a great season. That team is long & tough as hell. Priority has to be getting a PG, something like:

Franz Wagner + Mo Wagner for Darius Garland
Anthony Black for DeJounte Murray
Overpay Immanuel Quickley in FA

I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes like $36m.

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Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.

There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.

I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.

Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.

[basketballRob]

Lot of respect to Orlando for a great season. That team is long & tough as hell. Priority has to be getting a PG, something like:

Franz Wagner + Mo Wagner for Darius Garland
Anthony Black for DeJounte Murray
Overpay Immanuel Quickley in FA

I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes like $36m.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.

There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.

I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.

Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.

Orlando looks at Franz and Paolo as a younger version of Tatum and Brown. Franz had an off year shooting, so he probably won't get the max. Brown had a bad 3rd season and didn't get the max either. Orlando has $32m in cap space or $43m if they choose not to keep Ingles. They'll be able to find more shooting and playmaking. Plus, the Magic are really high on Black.

I personally like Simons. Portland is a borderline tax team and might give up Simons for a couple of picks. They have Henderson and Sharpe as the future backcourt.

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[cgf]

I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes like $36m.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.

There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.

I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.

Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.

Orlando looks at Franz and Paolo as a younger version of Tatum and Brown. Franz had an off year shooting, so he probably won't get the max. Brown had a bad 3rd season and didn't get the max either. Orlando has $32m in cap space or $43m if they choose not to keep Ingles. They'll be able to find more shooting and playmaking. Plus, the Magic are really high on Black.

I personally like Simons. Portland is a borderline tax team and might give up Simons for a couple of picks. They have Henderson and Sharpe as the future backcourt.

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We'll see if you can get Franz signed to a bargain, but 2nd contracts often pay as much for potential as performance because teams are paying for the player they expect to have during the course of that 2nd contract, not just the player they got on the rookie deal. That's why Garland is paid as much as he is, that's why RJ got similar money to Brunson & Randle, and that's why I'm skeptical you'll get Franz signed for under 30M AAV.

This might be controversial, but I don't think the Tatum/Brown model is one teams should be looking to emulate, but one that teams should be learning from the failures of. I love long skilled wings that can defend as much as anyone, but the most successful teams have had their star power more spread around and gotten more creation/playmaking from their stars. Just like the clippers, the Celtics lack creation and their offense stagnates too often for how much talent they have.

I like Simons for you too, but I see him in a similar tier to Quickley...more explosive but less versatile...and am higher on Garland moving forward. But if you can get Simons for picks alone then it's certainly possible for Simons + Franz to help you more than Garland + whatever you did with those picks. I'm just still very high on Garland and think he would absolutely explode if you trusted him to run your offense with Paolo, Suggs, WCJ/Isaac, etc. around him.

Just as a fan of a rival eastern conference playoff team (Knicks). You'd scare me more with Garland + picks, than you would with Franz + Simons.

[basketballRob]

Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.

There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.

I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.

Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.

Orlando looks at Franz and Paolo as a younger version of Tatum and Brown. Franz had an off year shooting, so he probably won't get the max. Brown had a bad 3rd season and didn't get the max either. Orlando has $32m in cap space or $43m if they choose not to keep Ingles. They'll be able to find more shooting and playmaking. Plus, the Magic are really high on Black.

I personally like Simons. Portland is a borderline tax team and might give up Simons for a couple of picks. They have Henderson and Sharpe as the future backcourt.

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We'll see if you can get Franz signed to a bargain, but 2nd contracts often pay as much for potential as performance because teams are paying for the player they expect to have during the course of that 2nd contract, not just the player they got on the rookie deal. That's why Garland is paid as much as he is, that's why RJ got similar money to Brunson & Randle, and that's why I'm skeptical you'll get Franz signed for under 30M AAV.

This might be controversial, but I don't think the Tatum/Brown model is one teams should be looking to emulate, but one that teams should be learning from the failures of. I love long skilled wings that can defend as much as anyone, but the most successful teams have had their star power more spread around and gotten more creation/playmaking from their stars. Just like the clippers, the Celtics lack creation and their offense stagnates too often for how much talent they have.

I like Simons for you too, but I see him in a similar tier to Quickley...more explosive but less versatile...and am higher on Garland moving forward. But if you can get Simons for picks alone then it's certainly possible for Simons + Franz to help you more than Garland + whatever you did with those picks. I'm just still very high on Garland and think he would absolutely explode if you trusted him to run your offense with Paolo, Suggs, WCJ/Isaac, etc. around him.

Just as a fan of a rival eastern conference playoff team (Knicks). You'd scare me more with Garland + picks, than you would with Franz + Simons.

Bobby Marks thinks Franz will get $26-28m and $18-20m for Suggs. There is no reason to extend Franz this offseason unless he takes $26-28m. His cap hold is $21m in 2025. We could wait and potentially have $40m to offer Mitchell or offer White a big contract.

https://youtu.be/TxIsws_3xX4?feature=shared

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[Chuck Everett]

Trading Franz should not happen. The fact that Paolo and him are out there at the forward spots is the main reason their defense is so good in the first place. Losing that size would be asinine. It's a real weapon. Strus had one good game out of 7 going against it. Franz stays period.

[Roy T]

Derozan offers no spacing and is 2-3 years from retirement

Those 2-3 years match the sixers title window much better. They have to start a rebuild in a couple of years anyways.

[UcanUwill]

Lot of respect to Orlando for a great season. That team is long & tough as hell. Priority has to be getting a PG, something like:

Franz Wagner + Mo Wagner for Darius Garland
Anthony Black for DeJounte Murray
Overpay Immanuel Quickley in FA

I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes like $36m.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.

There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.

I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.

Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.

Franz wandered off and lost the confidence in his shot, but I still value him better than Garland no question. He is almost 7 feet with playmaking skills and ability to guard most player archetypes. We never got next Durant, because being 7 feet and such a great perimeter shooter and scorer is more unicorn than people might realize, but Franz has at least some of those qualities. I think he is taller than Jokic for example, but he has skillset of a guard. I put stocks on that over 6 foot PG who isnt even that crazy athletic or generational shooter. And I like Garland a ton, but you can find Garland with some luck, if Wagner pans out on the other hand....

Also, do we just write off Black? He was a rookie and showed interesting qualities. I know Orlando emerged into win now team fast, but man, their window will just start to be opened, I think they need to be very cautious with potential win now moves.

[basketballRob]

I think the Magic keep their cap space for the next 2 seasons unless they can trade for a player like Booker or Mitchell.

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[UcanUwill]

Derozan offers no spacing and is 2-3 years from retirement

Those 2-3 years match the sixers title window much better. They have to start a rebuild in a couple of years anyways.

Bill Simmons mentioned it, but Orlando is in position to make a VanVleet type move, sign a vet thats its huge overpay in a vacuum, but it does not put team in hostige situation and is just a mentor plus leader on a young team that is learning how to win games.

I was one of the very few people that defended Fred VanVleet signing, because I saw the intention. And I think it worked. Not sure who could be their own FVV this year, but I do not think they should fear such signing. Maybe DeMar is not the fit, because I agree with spacing woes, but I dont know, yesterday, they could have used a guy who can just get a mid range bucket.

[Saints14]

I don’t think they should do anything drastic, because any big improvement will come in the form of Banchero or Wagner taking a leap. But I do like them going after Monk in free agency. Keeps the core playmaking duties in Paolo and Franz’s hands, but Monk can do some secondary playmaking and fits well in a backcourt with Suggs or Black

[cgf]

I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes like $36m.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.

There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.

I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.

Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.

Franz wandered off and lost the confidence in his shot, but I still value him better than Garland no question. He is almost 7 feet with playmaking skills and ability to guard most player archetypes. We never got next Durant, because being 7 feet and such a great perimeter shooter and scorer is more unicorn than people might realize, but Franz has at least some of those qualities. I think he is taller than Jokic for example, but he has skillset of a guard. I put stocks on that over 6 foot PG who isnt even that crazy athletic or generational shooter. And I like Garland a ton, but you can find Garland with some luck, if Wagner pans out on the other hand....

Also, do we just write off Black? He was a rookie and showed interesting qualities. I know Orlando emerged into win now team fast, but man, their window will just start to be opened, I think they need to be very cautious with potential win now moves.

I guess I just don’t see a dramatically higher ceiling from Franz. I’m always rooting for other Germans, but even if his 3ball bounces back, I think that Garland bouncing back would have a greater offensive impact.

So to me they are both likely 3rd options with 2nd option potential. Franz the better slasher & defender, Garland the better playmaker & shooter. And both would help each other’s teams more than their current ones.

[Residual-Heat]

Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.

There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.

I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.

Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.

Franz wandered off and lost the confidence in his shot, but I still value him better than Garland no question. He is almost 7 feet with playmaking skills and ability to guard most player archetypes. We never got next Durant, because being 7 feet and such a great perimeter shooter and scorer is more unicorn than people might realize, but Franz has at least some of those qualities. I think he is taller than Jokic for example, but he has skillset of a guard. I put stocks on that over 6 foot PG who isnt even that crazy athletic or generational shooter. And I like Garland a ton, but you can find Garland with some luck, if Wagner pans out on the other hand....

Also, do we just write off Black? He was a rookie and showed interesting qualities. I know Orlando emerged into win now team fast, but man, their window will just start to be opened, I think they need to be very cautious with potential win now moves.

I guess I just don’t see a dramatically higher ceiling from Franz. I’m always rooting for other Germans, but even if his 3ball bounces back, I think that Garland bouncing back would have a greater offensive impact.

So to me they are both likely 3rd options with 2nd option potential. Franz the better slasher & defender, Garland the better playmaker & shooter. And both would help each other’s teams more than their current ones.

And then how do you fill the hole you've left at SF? 6'10 forwards like Franz are rare, while there are plenty of solid PGs out there. If Franz's 3pt% bounces back, where are the Magic going to find a SF that as well rounded as Franz? Are you relying on Isaac staying healthy and starting? Because there are obvious risks that come with that.

Most teams have a good PG, some even have two. It shouldnt be that hard to fill that hole when you put all your picks, plus the denver pick, plus WCJ, and a couple of young prospects (Black, Howard) on the table. The Magic really dont need to give up Franz to get a PG.

Franz has shown a lot of improvement over the years. At different points in his career he has shown he can be effective with the ball, without the ball, play good defense, get to the rim, rebound at a solid rate, play good defense, shoot the three. Now its time for him to put it all together.

[Ito]

They won 2-3 more games than expected in the playoffs, had a ok season made the playoffs so I voted rising team, prolly heading in a better direction