A watered down version of Shaq and Kobe is running the league

[Fadeaway_Jumper]

Jokic is holding the title of best player in the league because of a combination of his dominance, availability to stay on the court, and sustained playoff performance. Murray has been an amazing running mate that has turned into the closer, when the Nuggets need a basket in a tight game.

These guys are good, but no where near as dominant, and legendary as Shaq & Kobe were. Especially on defense. Makes you wonder how many titles they would have won if you dropped them off in this era.

[TheGeneral99]

I wouldn't say it's a watered down version, just different.

As you noted - Jokic and Murray are better than Shaq and Kobe on the offensive end (young Kobe wasn't as refined as older Kobe after Shaq left) while Shaq and Kobe were better on the defensive end.

Jokic, in my opinion, is a 7 foot Larry Bird...just incredible to watch.

Shaq and Kobe would be very dominant in this era but there are two reasons why I think Shaq may not be as dominant as people think: 1) Teams could exploit him on the pick and roll by spamming 3s; and 2) his inability to hit shots or free throws would hurt him in late games.

That being said it would be awesome to see Jokic and Shaq against each other.

[kuclas]

It’s a different game.

We need a Denver Boston finals.

While any title is still an nba title (see 2019 raptors vs injured golden state) lakers covid title letting lbj/AD heal for 4 months prior to a 2 month push or even last year nuggets run which didn’t feel like the faced good teams

I want the best of the best to face each other (hopefully both teams healthy). To see if Jokic can defeat the best of the best with a Healty Denver team and healthy Boston team

That’s assuming Denver can get through timberwolves than okc.

[PistolPeteJR]

Jokic is NOTHING like Shaq.

[Bum Adebayo]

Jokic is NOTHING like Shaq.

Exactly, he is better, only Jordan himself is comparable to Jokic and that's being very conservative, Jokic will be the GOAT when all is said and done. I think it will be similar to Djokovic, he was great from the beginning but racking title after title in a weak era helped him have the numbers.

[Pattycakes]

I wouldn't say it's a watered down version, just different.

As you noted - Jokic and Murray are better than Shaq and Kobe on the offensive end (young Kobe wasn't as refined as older Kobe after Shaq left) while Shaq and Kobe were better on the defensive end.

Jokic, in my opinion, is a 7 foot Larry Bird...just incredible to watch.

Shaq and Kobe would be very dominant in this era but there are two reasons why I think Shaq may not be as dominant as people think: 1) Teams could exploit him on the pick and roll by spamming 3s; and 2) his inability to hit shots or free throws would hurt him in late games.

That being said it would be awesome to see Jokic and Shaq against each other.

Imo I could see shaq being more dominant nowadays with access to better doctors, tech etc. however he would have also had a lot of modern temptations to distract him as well. That’s a tough call, cause hypothetically peak athletic shaq would probably average 35/18 a game now

[PistolPeteJR]

Jokic is NOTHING like Shaq.

Exactly, he is better, only Jordan himself is comparable to Jokic and that's being very conservative, Jokic will be the GOAT when all is said and done.

First off, he's not better all-time at all. Way too early for that. Let's reexamine this in a few years.

Secondly, I'm referring to style of play.

[LockoutSeason]

Jokic and Murray are nothing like Shaq and Kobe. It’s more like Hakeem and Kenny Smith, except a 1000 times better version of Kenny.

And Denver’s supporting cast would mercy rule the Lakers supporting cast.

[KembaWalker]

Jokic is a better scorer, rebounder, and defender than Shaq while also giving you Magic level passing. Murray isn’t really in the convo with the other 3 I agree, but Shaq and Kobe hardly belong in the convo with Jokic at this point

[Rendei]

I'll take peak Jokic over peak Shaq. And I love Shaq.

[tsherkin]

Honestly I think that Shaq would struggle some in this league. Because he was so incompetent at the line, he has a cap on his efficiency, which means his volume scoring wouldn't have anywhere near the same value.

Understand, in his day, Shaq was an exceedingly efficient player. He was consistently leading the league in FG%, drawing fouls like a beast and smashing it. He was a +5.6% rTS guy from 1993 to 2005 (rookie year to first year with the Heat), and had four seasons of +7% or better, peaking at +8.3 in 2003.

Without adjusting his game, if you compare his career to league average from 2024 (58.0%), he'd be a +0.3% rTS guy with 5 seasons of negative rTS.

Naturally, that's not super-appropriate because some things would change. For example, league average FG% from 0-3 feet is like 10% higher than it was in his day, which changes things some, and of course size of defenders, style of defense and the like is all a little different.

But let's play a game. Let's take 2000 Shaq and increase his FG% in the RA by 10% and see what his efficiency looks like. It was 57.8% in real life (-0.3% compared to today's league average), which was +5.5% in his day. Shots from 0-3 were a shade over 40% of his FGA volume and a 10% increase nets him an extra 0.85 FGM/g, approximately. That moves him to about 13.0 FGM/g, with a bit of rounding (more like 12.95, but screw it). 13/21.1 is 61.6% FG and he was rocking 5.5/10.4 FTA/g (52.4%), which would bring him up to 61.3% TS.

And lo, he's at +3.3% rTS. Competitive and strong, though not as dominant as he was in his own time. He wouldn't really see any increase in his hook shots, those aren't any easier than they were in his day. He probably WOULD see a reduction in his raw volume and some minutes restrictions, particularly because he was so useless at the line and couldn't shoot once he hit the bottom of the circle or stepped out of the key.

Now, 10% is a variable number, it's probably gonna be a lesser improvement than that, whatever. But it certainly illustrates that there is potential for him to translate forward. He was huge, he was mobile. I think the Orlando version of him translates better than others. And like the rookie or second-year versions of Shaq would be REALLY interesting in today's game for his better attention to contesting shots and his mobility, etc. There is the CHANCE that he might turn into a somewhat more Giannis-like version of himself as a player, with a little more dribble drive. Shaq did have handles, which was never really represented in his game much outside of the RS, but he had them. And he certainly wasn't any slower than Giannis.

But yeah, with his issues at the line and his general issues defending in space, he'd have some troubles to overcome. Of course, Jokic isn't amazing at dealing with mobile defenders and PnR attack either, so we have seen that you can win a title like that under certain circumstances. Shaq very specifically looked great next to Horry, so opening things up more for him with today's spacing would be pretty ideal for him. If a team didn't ask him to get 30, but focused more on 22-25 ppg, he would be pretty nuts today.

Giannis is a career 70.2% FT guy, 59.1% 2FG and completely useless from 3 (though he does take them, at 28.6%), and he's a career 61.0% TS guy on .520 FTr. He drives a lot more than did Shaq, but Diesel was also really good about offensive rebounding, off-ball movement, running in transition and he was a huge (literally) problem when he got mid or low post position, so...

Yeah, I think he'd be fine today, just not as dominant as he was in his own day because scoring efficiency is so much higher and he blew chunks at the line so badly that it really puts a cap on his upper bound. If he could retain some of his slender, more mobile play from Orlando, then he'd have a better chance of being nastier and more versatile, higher-impact, etc. There are some big boys in the league right now who might be able to give him any kind of trouble, and doubles like he only really saw nearer to the end of his career as the rules changed, too, so it's not like he would feast entirely on some incapable defensive landscape.

Fun experiment, though.

[art_tatum]

Let's not detract from the Denver supporting cast, especially their other starters.

Look at what Porter jr and AG did in the first round.

Not many 3rd and 4th best players on a team put up those averages and efficiency in the playoffs.

Only guys on stacked teams like klay from kd warriors
Bosh heatles
Worthy lakers
Etc

[BooomBaby]

Jokic is NOTHING like Shaq.

Exactly, he is better, only Jordan himself is comparable to Jokic and that's being very conservative, Jokic will be the GOAT when all is said and done.

First off, he's not better all-time at all. Way too early for that. Let's reexamine this in a few years.

Secondly, I'm referring to style of play.

Exactly...

Jokic is good, but could we please wait and see what he does this season and beyond?

[EmpireFalls]

MPJ and Aaron Gordon are much better than their equivalents in Rick Fox and Horace Grant (post prime Horace Grant) on the 2001 Lakers. The Lakers had more depth to be fair but it’s not just the two stars.

It’s just a different game.

[Roger Murdock]

Honestly I think that Shaq would struggle some in this league. Because he was so incompetent at the line, he has a cap on his efficiency, which means his volume scoring wouldn't have anywhere near the same value.

Understand, in his day, Shaq was an exceedingly efficient player. He was consistently leading the league in FG%, drawing fouls like a beast and smashing it. He was a +5.6% rTS guy from 1993 to 2005 (rookie year to first year with the Heat), and had four seasons of +7% or better, peaking at +8.3 in 2003.

Without adjusting his game, if you compare his career to league average from 2024 (58.0%), he'd be a +0.3% rTS guy with 5 seasons of negative rTS.

Naturally, that's not super-appropriate because some things would change. For example, league average FG% from 0-3 feet is like 10% higher than it was in his day, which changes things some, and of course size of defenders, style of defense and the like is all a little different.

But let's play a game. Let's take 2000 Shaq and increase his FG% in the RA by 10% and see what his efficiency looks like. It was 57.8% in real life (-0.3% compared to today's league average), which was +5.5% in his day. Shots from 0-3 were a shade over 40% of his FGA volume and a 10% increase nets him an extra 0.85 FGM/g, approximately. That moves him to about 13.0 FGM/g, with a bit of rounding (more like 12.95, but screw it). 13/21.1 is 61.6% FG and he was rocking 5.5/10.4 FTA/g (52.4%), which would bring him up to 61.3% TS.

And lo, he's at +3.3% rTS. Competitive and strong, though not as dominant as he was in his own time. He wouldn't really see any increase in his hook shots, those aren't any easier than they were in his day. He probably WOULD see a reduction in his raw volume and some minutes restrictions, particularly because he was so useless at the line and couldn't shoot once he hit the bottom of the circle or stepped out of the key.

Now, 10% is a variable number, it's probably gonna be a lesser improvement than that, whatever. But it certainly illustrates that there is potential for him to translate forward. He was huge, he was mobile. I think the Orlando version of him translates better than others. And like the rookie or second-year versions of Shaq would be REALLY interesting in today's game for his better attention to contesting shots and his mobility, etc. There is the CHANCE that he might turn into a somewhat more Giannis-like version of himself as a player, with a little more dribble drive. Shaq did have handles, which was never really represented in his game much outside of the RS, but he had them. And he certainly wasn't any slower than Giannis.

But yeah, with his issues at the line and his general issues defending in space, he'd have some troubles to overcome. Of course, Jokic isn't amazing at dealing with mobile defenders and PnR attack either, so we have seen that you can win a title like that under certain circumstances. Shaq very specifically looked great next to Horry, so opening things up more for him with today's spacing would be pretty ideal for him. If a team didn't ask him to get 30, but focused more on 22-25 ppg, he would be pretty nuts today.

Giannis is a career 70.2% FT guy, 59.1% 2FG and completely useless from 3 (though he does take them, at 28.6%), and he's a career 61.0% TS guy on .520 FTr. He drives a lot more than did Shaq, but Diesel was also really good about offensive rebounding, off-ball movement, running in transition and he was a huge (literally) problem when he got mid or low post position, so...

Yeah, I think he'd be fine today, just not as dominant as he was in his own day because scoring efficiency is so much higher and he blew chunks at the line so badly that it really puts a cap on his upper bound. If he could retain some of his slender, more mobile play from Orlando, then he'd have a better chance of being nastier and more versatile, higher-impact, etc. There are some big boys in the league right now who might be able to give him any kind of trouble, and doubles like he only really saw nearer to the end of his career as the rules changed, too, so it's not like he would feast entirely on some incapable defensive landscape.

Fun experiment, though.

Love the thought and analysis. One point I’d add is that I’m certain shaqs mix of shots 0-3 feet would increase in todays nba given the space and the size mismatches he’d see. There’s way less clogged toilet offense and defense now than 20 years ago. More room to get in close. I think the main reason we see a higher rate at the rim today is that it’s just straight up easier to get to the rim today.

On the other end he’d also likely get cooked on defense. And I’m not sure he’s love an extra 15-20 possessions a game of cardio.

Agree some version of a bruisier Giannis is his comparison

[Chokic]

This thread is proof how overrated jokic is by rgm. The dude won only 1 title and won two possibly 3 mvps off extremely good circumstances of embiid being injured and is annointed as better than mj shaq and kobe lol

[tsherkin]

Love the thought and analysis. One point I’d add is that I’m certain shaqs mix of shots 0-3 feet would increase in todays nba given the space and the size mismatches he’d see. There’s way less clogged toilet offense and defense now than 20 years ago. More room to get in close. I think the main reason we see a higher rate at the rim today is that it’s just straight up easier to get to the rim today.

On the other end he’d also likely get cooked on defense. And I’m not sure he’s love an extra 15-20 possessions a game of cardio.

Agree some version of a bruisier Giannis is his comparison

It's possible his proportion would increase, but if it did, then his overall shot volume would decrease. There are only so many isos you can get there with the way defenses work now. There's a lot of space, but it's far easier to send a second guy, particularly post-illegal defense. We saw that a lot with how he played in the latter portions of the three-peat and against the Pistons in 04. It's certainly different driving to the rim today, particularly with tons of PnR entry and DHOs meaning fewer lengthy dribble isolations, but that's not quite the same for big guys.

Now, as I mentioned earlier, he was particularly good at cutting in and around the key, and he would remain a fantastic offensive rebounder with the amount of space he could carve out and his anticipation, so there's that to consider.

But keep in mind that 93 Orlando was a 96.3 possession/game team, and there are a half-dozen teams in the league playing under 97 poss/g this year. He could do it, especially in his younger form. It would also mean a little less banging around for him, so there's a trade off between cardio and health to be considered too.

Remember, Shaq looked and moved very differently in 2000 compared to when he first hit the league. He was very, very mobile in his earlier forms, but intentionally bulked up as things slowed down and he had to deal with how the league called certain fouls/no-calls against him and stuff, particularly after the abdo injury. That might not happen in today's game, you know?

[Rainwater]

Denver needs to win more than 1 title to say they are running the league. There is a lot of young talent out there right now that can take the crown.

[Fadeaway_Jumper]

Let's not detract from the Denver supporting cast, especially their other starters.

Look at what Porter jr and AG did in the first round.

Not many 3rd and 4th best players on a team put up those averages and efficiency in the playoffs.

Only guys on stacked teams like klay from kd warriors
Bosh heatles
Worthy lakers
Etc

That’s very true. Guys like Porter and AG would be a 2nd option on a team like the current Knicks

[Rendei]

This thread is proof how overrated jokic is by rgm. The dude won only 1 title and won two possibly 3 mvps off extremely good circumstances of embiid being injured and is annointed as better than mj shaq and kobe lol

Last year Jokic was 27 years old and he won his first title. When Shaq was 27 years old, he won his only MVP and his first title. That was the best season of Shaq's life. He had a WS/48 of .283 and a BPM of 9.3, both career highs. Jokic has slaughtered those numbers for 4 straight seasons now.

We can't compare careers since Jokic is still young, but we can compare where they were at the same age.