Is Jokic better than Lebron ever was ? Has he already peaked higher ? How long before he surpasses him all time?

[Cubbies2120]

Explain. Also please comment, do you think Lebron now is close to as good now at his peak, which we are comparing here?

No, I think peak Lebron was notably better than he is now, for obvious reasons.

Or do you really think Jokic was that much better in this series

I do, yes.

I think that for primes, Jokic vs Lebron is a good conversation. I think Lebron has an excellent argument against Jokic prime to prime, I just also think that Jokic has a strong argument. Understand, I'm not saying Jokic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prime Lebron, that isn't my contention. I think they're on a similar level. Jokic is a better offensive player IMHO, and Lebron evened it out some with defense. And, of course, was excellent on offense himself.

What I object to is more how people are dismissing Jokic as not being worthy of the conversation, not so much advancing the idea that you HAVE to believe Jokic > Lebron for primes.

That's fair. I disagree that Jokic in this series was that much better than 39 year old Lebron, where as you say it's obvious that prime Lebron was much better than 39 year old Lebron. So much better, that I think prime Lebron wouldve been the best player in this series easily, as he was pretty close as 39 year old. It speaks to how good prime Lebron was, which I think many of the Jokic fanatics here are failing to remember correctly.

I love how tsherkin tells you Jokic has a case against prime LBJ and you dismiss it, state that 39yr old LeBron was 'close' and then state Jokic fans ("fanatics") are failing to remember him correctly.

We remember - and we still think Jokic has a case as backed up by advanced metrics + tsherkin's assessment.

You're now trying to make a case where there isn't one to be had. Take the L!

[Jaqua92]

Lebron carried some really bad teams in his prime. Not sure Jokic could get to a conference finals without Murray.

Not sure Lebron could win a ring without AD, Wade or Kyrie. What’s your point?

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

To be fair, LeBron wouldn't have carried those teams to the conference finals or the finals either if he played in the West. The East was historically weak during that. I'm not sure why people don't acknowledge this.

[Jabroni Lames]

Not trying to be that "assalytics" guy, but... using WS/48 stat for each's top 3 seasons:

Peak Lebron (WS/48): .322, .318, .299
Peak Jokic (WS/48): .308, .301, .299

It's damn close... but it's Lebron by a nose.

[DimesandKnicks]

Not sure Lebron could win a ring without AD, Wade or Kyrie. What’s your point?

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

To be fair, LeBron wouldn't have carried those teams to the conference finals or the finals either if he played in the West. The East was historically weak during that. I'm not sure why people don't acknowledge this.

The same could be said about Jokic’s path to the finals. And despite the East being an inferior conference he still lost to great teams in the end.

His third year in the league he took a 64 win Detroit team to seven games.

Year four he went to finals.

Year five he lost to the KG, Pierce, Allen, Rondo Celtics.

Year six he lost to Dwight and shooters with a team he carried to 66 wins with scrubs

Year seven he lost to the Celtics again with a 60 win team with Varejo arguably being their second best player.

[hardenASG13]

No, I think peak Lebron was notably better than he is now, for obvious reasons.



I do, yes.

I think that for primes, Jokic vs Lebron is a good conversation. I think Lebron has an excellent argument against Jokic prime to prime, I just also think that Jokic has a strong argument. Understand, I'm not saying Jokic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prime Lebron, that isn't my contention. I think they're on a similar level. Jokic is a better offensive player IMHO, and Lebron evened it out some with defense. And, of course, was excellent on offense himself.

What I object to is more how people are dismissing Jokic as not being worthy of the conversation, not so much advancing the idea that you HAVE to believe Jokic > Lebron for primes.

That's fair. I disagree that Jokic in this series was that much better than 39 year old Lebron, where as you say it's obvious that prime Lebron was much better than 39 year old Lebron. So much better, that I think prime Lebron wouldve been the best player in this series easily, as he was pretty close as 39 year old. It speaks to how good prime Lebron was, which I think many of the Jokic fanatics here are failing to remember correctly.

I love how tsherkin tells you Jokic has a case against prime LBJ and you dismiss it, state that 39yr old LeBron was 'close' and then state Jokic fans ("fanatics") are failing to remember him correctly.

We remember - and we still think Jokic has a case as backed up by advanced metrics + tsherkin's assessment.

You're now trying to make a case where there isn't one to be had. Take the L!

Stop trolling, I'm trying to have an intelligent conversation with another poster. I doubt he wants to be grouped as "we" with you, as your comments are generally immediately dismissive of any opinion outside your own and involve a bunch of emojis. Lebron was close to being the best player in this series. In his prime he would've been much better, as to make him the best player in this series and thus better than prime Jokic. You are free to disagree, but I just saw what he did as a 39 year old and I know how much better prime Lebron wouldve been in this series than 39 year old Lebron, because I remember how good he was in his prime.

Answer this directly. Do you think the gap between Jokic and 39 year old Lebron in this series was larger than the gap between Prime Lebron and 39 year old Lebron? I don't, but if you do please explain why.

[TroubleS0me]

wow Hot take on a 1000

[Infinite Llamas]

Lebron carried some really bad teams in his prime. Not sure Jokic could get to a conference finals without Murray.

Not sure Lebron could win a ring without AD, Wade or Kyrie. What’s your point?

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

Jokic could have made the Finals with
Snow
Hughes
Marshall
Gooden

That’s really how bad the East was in 2006-07. Give Jokic good defenders and some shooters (Pavlovic and Gibson) and he’s good to go. Wallace vs Jokic would have been an amazing matchup.

[tsherkin]

That's fair. I disagree that Jokic in this series was that much better than 39 year old Lebron, where as you say it's obvious that prime Lebron was much better than 39 year old Lebron. So much better, that I think prime Lebron wouldve been the best player in this series easily, as he was pretty close as 39 year old. It speaks to how good prime Lebron was, which I think many of the Jokic fanatics here are failing to remember correctly.

I see where you're coming from. I think where we diverge is in looking at the evaluation of Lebron. I don't think he was anywhere near the best player in this series despite his excellent scoring, and I don't think he closes the gap enough in his prime form to really make the "unquestionably best player" argument in this series.

Lebron was amazing. He's been pretty good this year. He's been scoring at a roughly regular-season level in this series, too, which is impressive enough, especially at his age. But like, Jokic was obliterating them with his efficiency as well, was passing very well, crushing it on the offensive glass (an area where Lebron has withered) and in general abusing them. I see a lot of people getting down on him for not scoring more, but like... he had a pair of 30+ games and he didn't get a single FT in Game 5 and still posted 25 on 57% shooting while abusing them on the glass. And in the two preceding games, he had 5 offensive boards. 2 triple doubles, couple of 20-rebound games, like he was killing it. Even in Game 5, he tossed up 33/14/14 on 66% TS. He took 5 3s and 21 shots, and other than the threes, all his shots were in the paint... and he didn't get a single FTA somehow. If that was anyone else, they'd be fawning all over him for that. People just like to nitpick him because he's Jokic, and people also like to fetishize points scored. But 5 points from the bench and Murray going 9/23 did them in, especially while LA actually hit the O boards well enough and Reaves showed up, the bench outscored Denver's bench 13-5, AD played very well, etc, etc.

In any case, I'm a Lebron fan. I have been since he was in HS, getting views on ESPN. I appreciate his game, I think he's in the GOAT conversation. I think, though, that prime to prime, Jokic is right there with him. I'm not interested in calling anyone fanatics or whatever, I just have a healthy appreciation of both players.

[ScrantonBulls]

The arguments I was presented with was hypothetical. So I responded hypothetically. Same as you too.

You claim Kobe would win more than 2 championships if he took LeBron's place in Miami. So you have him beating the Mavs, despite having a stacked team that year and getting swept by them? Or do you have him beating the all time great 2013-14 Spurs despite Wade being washed? C'mon man, there's no way you believe that. Neither of those scenarios make sense.

You claimed Lebron would won more than 3 championships with Shaq. How are we different?

Lakers had same record as that Mavs team. So I wouldn't call them more stacked than the Mavs. That Heat team was more stacked than both. Lebron and Wade was top 3-5 players in the league, Bosh was top 10.

Ok, Kobe may not win more championship than Lebron for that Heat team. But to me that's more because Lebron is a better fit with Wade, more than Kobe. I'd still bet on Kobe over Lebron to win a 7 game series.

About pairing with Shaq, I still like Kobe better. Lebron would've looked for Shaq more. But Kobe was the better shot getter and closer to complement Shaq on the perimeter.

It's different because my scenario actually has some logic attached to it. You're basically saying "you proposed a hypothetical, so I'm going to propose an absolutely ridiculous hypothetical, and they are equal because neither can be proven or disproven." You might as well have said you could have won more than 2 championships in LeBron's place. It's hypothetical, right?

It took Kobe years to be a very effective player and #2. LeBron was great from the start, and a superstar by year 2. Compare Kobe's years with Shaq (ages 19 to 25) to LeBron's years from 19 to 25. It's not contest. LeBron is so clearly the better player, it isn't even close.

"Kobe is a better shot getter"? LeBron is a better and more efficient scorer than Kobe. Just look at the stats. No offense, but it's safe to say your argument is partly rooted in emotion. LeBron is so clearly ahead of Kobe. Claiming Kobe would win more championships with reversed roles is absolutely nuts. I can make a thread about it if you're interested in hearing other people's takes.

[dhsilv2]

Not trying to be that "assalytics" guy, but... using WS/48 stat for each's top 3 seasons:

Peak Lebron (WS/48): .322, .318, .299
Peak Jokic (WS/48): .308, .301, .299

It's damn close... but it's Lebron by a nose.

BPM 13.7 13.2 13.0 vs 13.2 11.8 11.7
PER 32.8 31.5 31.3 vs 31.7 31.6 31.1

I mean...it's all close and it's not clear.

I like stats and all but when we're talking THIS level, you gotta make the judgement call from the film study.

[joesha1698]

I would be surprised if Jokic ends his career with more than 2 rings. Let's just put it that way.

[Jaqua92]

Not trying to be that "assalytics" guy, but... using WS/48 stat for each's top 3 seasons:

Peak Lebron (WS/48): .322, .318, .299
Peak Jokic (WS/48): .308, .301, .299

It's damn close... but it's Lebron by a nose.

I think this is more than fair.

When measuring players that good and that skilled, I like that stat.

Jokic is in the ballpark. But clearly a step below

[KembaWalker]

I would be surprised if Jokic ends his career with more than 2 rings. Let's just put it that way.

I agree that its unlikely. he isn't going to be calling up Luka and Giannis to team up, hopping from team to team, forming an agency to enhance recruiting. he doesnt seem that desperate to me

[xchange55]

Lebron has the stats - nobody can take those away from him. But he's never been the heart and soul of a team, or the clear go to guy. It's pretty clear he gets rattled under pressure. He'll mean mug when the team is up, but sulk when they are down. The true warriors of the game just battled until the outcome was decided - he doesn't have that. And that's okay - I don't have any ploblem with him personally. But if you want to say he's GOAT and has ultra fire and passion and competitivenss - nope I will disagree with you there. What Lebron has never had is a true dynasty. Other players had little confidence going up against those peak Steph, Kobe/Shaq and Jordan teams. LBJ just got stomped by other HOF'ers more than he won - and realisticly he could have easily have lost 2 more.

If you watched game 5, towards the end of the game, LBJ commits a foul on Joker and later the camera shows LBJ making a funny face and the announcers saying he's criticizing the call. But there is a video floating around - and it's actually Lebron playing games with a female fan who is less than half his weight. He stomps towards her to try and scare her. Then the funny face was to reproduce her reaction. It's the NBA playoffs, the game is in the balance, the season is on the line. And where is his focus - it's clearly not on competing and winning. LBJ has a lot of things, but he doesn't that it factor.

[DimesandKnicks]

Not sure Lebron could win a ring without AD, Wade or Kyrie. What’s your point?

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

Jokic could have made the Finals with
Snow
Hughes
Marshall
Gooden

That’s really how bad the East was in 2006-07. Give Jokic good defenders and some shooters (Pavlovic and Gibson) and he’s good to go. Wallace vs Jokic would have been an amazing matchup.

Marshal was done so you idk what line up you could put out there. Marino? Z coming off the bench? No shooters and a non defender at C. I say **** no.

[ScrantonBulls]

Lebron has the stats - nobody can take those away from him. But he's never been the heart and soul of a team, or the clear go to guy. It's pretty clear he gets rattled under pressure. He'll mean mug when the team is up, but sulk when they are down. The true warriors of the game just battled until the outcome was decided - he doesn't have that. And that's okay - I don't have any ploblem with him personally. But if you want to say he's GOAT and has ultra fire and passion and competitivenss - nope I will disagree with you there. What Lebron has never had is a true dynasty. Other players had little confidence going up against those peak Steph, Kobe/Shaq and Jordan teams. LBJ just got stomped by other HOF'ers more than he won - and realisticly he could have easily have lost 2 more.

If you watched game 5, towards the end of the game, LBJ commits a foul on Joker and later the camera shows LBJ making a funny face and the announcers saying he's criticizing the call. But there is a video floating around - and it's actually Lebron playing games with a female fan who is less than half his weight. He stomps towards her to try and scare her. Then the funny face was to reproduce her reaction. It's the NBA playoffs, the game is in the balance, the season is on the line. And where is his focus - it's clearly not on competing and winning. LBJ has a lot of things, but he doesn't that it factor.

I have to say, this is quality satire

[trueballer7]

Swap Jokic for Lebron in every team the latter played for. Is there even one that doesn't play much better with Joko? Really, imagine Jokic playing for the Heat or the Cavs...that's two dynasties, easy.

[Jabroni Lames]

Not trying to be that "assalytics" guy, but... using WS/48 stat for each's top 3 seasons:

Peak Lebron (WS/48): .322, .318, .299
Peak Jokic (WS/48): .308, .301, .299

It's damn close... but it's Lebron by a nose.

Just for comparison

Peak MJ (WS/48): .321, .317, .308

Pretty much a dead heat with Lebron

All-in-one stats are pretty suspect, but WS/48 is not bad overall, especially to compare eras.

[xchange55]

Lebron carried some really bad teams in his prime. Not sure Jokic could get to a conference finals without Murray.

Not sure Lebron could win a ring without AD, Wade or Kyrie. What’s your point?

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

Murray/Gordon/Porter Jr - Total All Star Appaerances = 0

Lebron first run Cavs had Shaq, Mo Williams, Big Z, Antawn Jamison - they all have at least 1 All Star appearence.

Murray is only getting a name now because of the playoffs last year. So what is he now Scottie Pippen HOF level? Jokic never won a title without Murray!

[AleksandarN]

That's fair. I disagree that Jokic in this series was that much better than 39 year old Lebron, where as you say it's obvious that prime Lebron was much better than 39 year old Lebron. So much better, that I think prime Lebron wouldve been the best player in this series easily, as he was pretty close as 39 year old. It speaks to how good prime Lebron was, which I think many of the Jokic fanatics here are failing to remember correctly.

I love how tsherkin tells you Jokic has a case against prime LBJ and you dismiss it, state that 39yr old LeBron was 'close' and then state Jokic fans ("fanatics") are failing to remember him correctly.

We remember - and we still think Jokic has a case as backed up by advanced metrics + tsherkin's assessment.

You're now trying to make a case where there isn't one to be had. Take the L!

Answer this directly. Do you think the gap between Jokic and 39 year old Lebron in this series was larger than the gap between Prime Lebron and 39 year old Lebron? I don't, but if you do please explain why.

I got one for you. Since you like hypotheticals so much. If Jokic replaces Lebron on the Heat do they lose to Dirk and the Mavs in the finals?

P.S. I have Lebron over Jokic for peak right now. It is not fair Jokic’s peak is not done so too early. But Lebron for sure over Jokic for peak.