Is Jokic better than Lebron ever was ? Has he already peaked higher ? How long before he surpasses him all time?

[DimesandKnicks]

Lebron carried some really bad teams in his prime. Not sure Jokic could get to a conference finals without Murray.

Not sure Lebron could win a ring without AD, Wade or Kyrie. What’s your point?

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

[ballzboyee]

No, Jokic is not better than prime Lebron James.

[LaLover11]

Lebron carried some really bad teams in his prime. Not sure Jokic could get to a conference finals without Murray.

Not sure Lebron could win a ring without AD, Wade or Kyrie. What’s your point?

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

You could've chose any language today yet decided to speak Facts!

[hardenASG13]

No, Jokic is not better than prime Lebron James.

It's just crazy. People watched them. Lebron is 39 and not in his prime, yet still played close to as good as prime Jokic in this series. He was a much better player when he was 29, a decade ago.

[tsherkin]

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

Hard to tell, given the difference in skill sets and what that might have meant for working with the guys Lebron did have. The East wasn't exactly dripping with talent in that period but Lebron was pretty amazing. Jokic wasn't the guy to routinely go out there and get 45 points, but he does other things Lebron could never manage, so it's not as simple as all that.

[ballzboyee]

No, Jokic is not better than prime Lebron James.

It's just crazy. People watched them. Lebron is 39 and not in his prime, yet still played close to as good as prime Jokic in this series. He was a much better player when he was 29, a decade ago.

Cleveland Lebron before just before he went to Miami was the second best player ever only behind first repeat Jordan between 91 to 93, and I don't think that version of Lebron was that far behind Jordan in overall skill. Lebron came into the league at every high skill level and was almost a perfect player by the time he had been in the league about five years. That specific version of Lebron is incredible. As good as he is, Jokic is not on that tier.

[Sweet Meat Lew]

Jokic is better, IMO.

Did it without superstar help and special treatment.

Heck...did it without a single all star.

Jokic is the better player and teammate.

If you think Murray isn't a superstar then you aren't paying attention. Insert prime Bron into this series and the Lakers win. We watched Joker struggle against DH / McGee. He has benefitted greatly by the deterioration of the center position. Most nights he matches up against guys who would've been 4s 10-15 years ago. I'm not knocking his greatness but to say he's already surpassed Bron's 20+ year body of work is insane. There is a real chance that he gets clipped in the second round.

[Cubbies2120]

No, Jokic is not better than prime Lebron James.

It's just crazy. People watched them. Lebron is 39 and not in his prime, yet still played close to as good as prime Jokic in this series. He was a much better player when he was 29, a decade ago.

Jokic: 28/16/10 on 59/33/93. ::: .320 WS/48, 14.3 BPM
LeBron: 28/7/9 on 57/39/74 ::: .191 WS/48, 10.6 BPM

23 year old Jokic in his first playoffs: 25/13/8 ::: .263 WS/48, 11.6 BPM

You wouldn't know what "close to as good" means if it hit you over the head. I just gandered a look at the advanced metrics of James Harden and peak Harden had two post season runs as good as LeBron this year. Embiid has literally never played as well as LeBron has in this year's playoffs (other than right now against the Knicks).

What Jokic is doing in the past two playoffs is breaking basketball as we know it with not just statistics, but game management that rivals peak LeBron. Murray may get the shine because he hits the big shots (after being the reason Denver is down each game) but Jokic is the steady, consistent engine that keeps Denver within distance minute after minute, game after game...

I view Jokic as kind of a father figure to the entire Denver Nuggets roster similar to how LeBron was a father figure to Kyrie. He ensures that this rag tag group of journeymen and non-all stars is allowed to explore their limits during the regular season, but come playoff time Jokic corrals them all back in line and everything becomes about game management allowing him to play chess against the opposing team's head coach.

[hardenASG13]

That Jokic wouldn’t carry the teams Lebron had in Cleveland the conference finals, never mind the finals

Hard to tell, given the difference in skill sets and what that might have meant for working with the guys Lebron did have. The East wasn't exactly dripping with talent in that period but Lebron was pretty amazing. Jokic wasn't the guy to routinely go out there and get 45 points, but he does other things Lebron could never manage, so it's not as simple as all that.

Do you think Jokic, in his prime currently, was much better than 39 year old Lebron in this series? Also, do you think Lebron was much better a decade ago, than he is now? I personally do, considerably better actually, which is why I think it's crazy to say that Jokic, who is at his peak now, has peaked better than Lebron James.

[tsherkin]

Do you think Jokic, in his prime currently, was much better than 39 year old Lebron in this series?

Yes.

[ballzboyee]

No, Jokic is not better than prime Lebron James.

It's just crazy. People watched them. Lebron is 39 and not in his prime, yet still played close to as good as prime Jokic in this series. He was a much better player when he was 29, a decade ago.

Jokic: 28/16/10 on 59/33/93. ::: .320 WS/48, 14.3 BPM
LeBron: 28/7/9 on 57/39/74 ::: .191 WS/48, 10.6 BPM

23 year old Jokic in his first playoffs: 25/13/8 ::: .263 WS/48, 11.6 BPM

You wouldn't know what "close to as good" means if it hit you over the head. I just gandered a look at the advanced metrics of James Harden and peak Harden had two post season runs as good as LeBron this year. Embiid has literally never played as well as LeBron has in this year's playoffs (other than right now against the Knicks).

What Jokic is doing in the past two playoffs is breaking basketball as we know it with not just statistics, but game management that rivals peak LeBron. Murray may get the shine because he hits the big shots (after being the reason Denver is down each game) but Jokic is the steady, consistent engine that keeps Denver within distance minute after minute, game after game...

I view Jokic as kind of a father figure to the entire Denver Nuggets roster similar to how LeBron was a father figure to Kyrie. He ensures that this rag tag group of journeymen and non-all stars is allowed to explore their limits during the regular season, but come playoff time Jokic corrals them all back in line and everything becomes about game management allowing him to play chess against the opposing team's head coach.

This is why analytics are so overrated, and why I don't pay attention to them when Lebron fans try to use efficiency numbers to downgrade Kobe. Watch the tape. Lebron could guard all 5 positions and play 4 positions on offense at an All-NBA level. A large part of Jokic success is that he plays in a weak defensive era with no true defensive bruising bigs and where there are also 4 guards (shooters) spacing the floor for him at all times. He's not asked to do the things that traditional centers used be required to do. He's touching the ball 23 feet from the basket in 5-out and high-ball screen offenses that are impossible guard for defenses today and with the rules setup to allow offensive players to basically to abuse the defender off moving screens, dragging double screens, pick plays, and just really in generally shady illegal offense that puts the defender in a no-win situation. Jokic is a great at exploiting his matchups , finishing through contact, and finding the open man. This is where all his value comes from. He's an offensive hub, but his value is very system specific to this era with all the spacing and its lack of physicality. If you took Jokic out of this 5-out era with all its spacing, he's not giving you double digit assists at the center position and putting up these monster advanced stats. He's also going to have to play much more physical style of basketball where defenders can move him when he touches the ball. I don't care what the stats say, he's not better than prime Lebron James. Go watch tape from that era of Lebron.

[Cubbies2120]

It's just crazy. People watched them. Lebron is 39 and not in his prime, yet still played close to as good as prime Jokic in this series. He was a much better player when he was 29, a decade ago.

Jokic: 28/16/10 on 59/33/93. ::: .320 WS/48, 14.3 BPM
LeBron: 28/7/9 on 57/39/74 ::: .191 WS/48, 10.6 BPM

23 year old Jokic in his first playoffs: 25/13/8 ::: .263 WS/48, 11.6 BPM

You wouldn't know what "close to as good" means if it hit you over the head. I just gandered a look at the advanced metrics of James Harden and peak Harden had two post season runs as good as LeBron this year. Embiid has literally never played as well as LeBron has in this year's playoffs (other than right now against the Knicks).

What Jokic is doing in the past two playoffs is breaking basketball as we know it with not just statistics, but game management that rivals peak LeBron. Murray may get the shine because he hits the big shots (after being the reason Denver is down each game) but Jokic is the steady, consistent engine that keeps Denver within distance minute after minute, game after game...

I view Jokic as kind of a father figure to the entire Denver Nuggets roster similar to how LeBron was a father figure to Kyrie. He ensures that this rag tag group of journeymen and non-all stars is allowed to explore their limits during the regular season, but come playoff time Jokic corrals them all back in line and everything becomes about game management allowing him to play chess against the opposing team's head coach.

This is why analytics are so overrated, and why I don't pay attention to them when Lebron fans try to use efficiency numbers to downgrade Kobe. Watch the tape. Lebron could guard all 5 positions and play 4 positions on offense at an All-NBA level. A large part of Jokic success is that he plays in a weak defensive era with no true defensive bruising bigs and where there are also 4 guards (shooters) spacing the floor for him at all times. He's not asked to do the things that traditional centers used be required to do. He's touching the ball 23 feet from the basket in 5-out and high-ball screen offenses that are impossible guard for defenses today and with the rules setup to allow offensive players to basically to abuse the defender off moving screens, dragging double screens, pick plays, and just really in generally shady illegal offense that puts the defender in a no-win situation. Jokic is a great at exploiting his matchups , finishing through contact, and finding the open man. This is where all his value comes from. He's an offensive hub, but his value is very system specific to this era with all the spacing and its lack of physicality. If you took Jokic out of this 5-out era with all its spacing, he's not giving you double digit assists at the center position and putting up these monster advanced stats. He's also going to have to play much more physical style of basketball where defenders can move him when touches the ball. I don't care what the stats say, he's not better than prime Lebron James. Go watch tape from that era of Lebron.

Funnily enough, my eye test tells me Jokic > LeBron. I watched the Spurs decimate a prime LeBron via great team play so it's not like he's this omnipotent being. So now tell me: how do we continue forward from here now that we're in a grid lock? Do you become emotional and call the other person an "idiot" or do you go and do some research to find ways to break the stalemate?

Advanced analytics allow us to separate feelings (biases for certain players like LeBron in your case) from facts. You can make all the excuses you want, but in reality Jokic is having a GOAT tier peak and folks like you will go down kicking and screaming if needed.

Yes, LeBron was an A+ offensive player and A+ defensive player. But Jokic is an A+++ offensive player and James Worthy said it best - he's a combination of Kareem's scoring and Magic's passing.

[DimesandKnicks]

Jokic: 28/16/10 on 59/33/93. ::: .320 WS/48, 14.3 BPM
LeBron: 28/7/9 on 57/39/74 ::: .191 WS/48, 10.6 BPM

23 year old Jokic in his first playoffs: 25/13/8 ::: .263 WS/48, 11.6 BPM

You wouldn't know what "close to as good" means if it hit you over the head. I just gandered a look at the advanced metrics of James Harden and peak Harden had two post season runs as good as LeBron this year. Embiid has literally never played as well as LeBron has in this year's playoffs (other than right now against the Knicks).

What Jokic is doing in the past two playoffs is breaking basketball as we know it with not just statistics, but game management that rivals peak LeBron. Murray may get the shine because he hits the big shots (after being the reason Denver is down each game) but Jokic is the steady, consistent engine that keeps Denver within distance minute after minute, game after game...

I view Jokic as kind of a father figure to the entire Denver Nuggets roster similar to how LeBron was a father figure to Kyrie. He ensures that this rag tag group of journeymen and non-all stars is allowed to explore their limits during the regular season, but come playoff time Jokic corrals them all back in line and everything becomes about game management allowing him to play chess against the opposing team's head coach.

This is why analytics are so overrated, and why I don't pay attention to them when Lebron fans try to use efficiency numbers to downgrade Kobe. Watch the tape. Lebron could guard all 5 positions and play 4 positions on offense at an All-NBA level. A large part of Jokic success is that he plays in a weak defensive era with no true defensive bruising bigs and where there are also 4 guards (shooters) spacing the floor for him at all times. He's not asked to do the things that traditional centers used be required to do. He's touching the ball 23 feet from the basket in 5-out and high-ball screen offenses that are impossible guard for defenses today and with the rules setup to allow offensive players to basically to abuse the defender off moving screens, dragging double screens, pick plays, and just really in generally shady illegal offense that puts the defender in a no-win situation. Jokic is a great at exploiting his matchups , finishing through contact, and finding the open man. This is where all his value comes from. He's an offensive hub, but his value is very system specific to this era with all the spacing and its lack of physicality. If you took Jokic out of this 5-out era with all its spacing, he's not giving you double digit assists at the center position and putting up these monster advanced stats. He's also going to have to play much more physical style of basketball where defenders can move him when touches the ball. I don't care what the stats say, he's not better than prime Lebron James. Go watch tape from that era of Lebron.

Funnily enough, my eye test tells me Jokic > LeBron. I watched the Spurs decimate a prime LeBron via great team play so it's not like he's this omnipotent being. So now tell me: how do we continue forward from here now that we're in a grid lock? Do you become emotional and call the other person an "idiot" or do you go and do some research to find ways to break the stalemate?

Advanced analytics allow us to separate feelings (biases for certain players like LeBron in your case) from facts. You can make all the excuses you want, but in reality Jokic is having a GOAT tier peak and folks like you will go down kicking and screaming if needed.

Yes, LeBron was an A+ offensive player and A+ defensive player. But Jokic is an A+++ offensive player and James Worthy said it best - he's a combination of Kareem's scoring and Magic's passing.

Advanced stats don’t do a good job of measuring defensive impact. In his prime, Lebron was one of the best defenders in the league. Jokic, at the center position, is average at best

[hardenASG13]

Do you think Jokic, in his prime currently, was much better than 39 year old Lebron in this series?

Yes.

Explain. Also please comment, do you think Lebron now is close to as good now at his peak, which we are comparing here? If not, doesn't the fact that he played so well in this series say something to you, in that when he was in his prime he would've been significantly better here? Or do you really think Jokic was that much better in this series (which was extremely close, despite Denver having better role players than LA) where it still goes the same way with prime LeBron replacing the 39 year old one? I personally don't see it, but curious as to why you do.

[tsherkin]

Advanced stats don’t do a good job of measuring defensive impact. In his prime, Lebron was one of the best defenders in the league. Jokic, at the center position, is average at best

Much as I'm all aboard the Jokic Train, it is very true that Lebron was a monster defender for quite a while. There was all kinds of hype and fuss over how Miami was running its defense without any classical big man defenders and all that, as I recall.

[tsherkin]

Explain. Also please comment, do you think Lebron now is close to as good now at his peak, which we are comparing here?

No, I think peak Lebron was notably better than he is now, for obvious reasons.

Or do you really think Jokic was that much better in this series

I do, yes.

I think that for primes, Jokic vs Lebron is a good conversation. I think Lebron has an excellent argument against Jokic prime to prime, I just also think that Jokic has a strong argument. Understand, I'm not saying Jokic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prime Lebron, that isn't my contention. I think they're on a similar level. Jokic is a better offensive player IMHO, and Lebron evened it out some with defense. And, of course, was excellent on offense himself.

What I object to is more how people are dismissing Jokic as not being worthy of the conversation, not so much advancing the idea that you HAVE to believe Jokic > Lebron for primes.

[Cubbies2120]

Do you think Jokic, in his prime currently, was much better than 39 year old Lebron in this series?

Yes.

Explain. Also please comment, do you think Lebron now is close to as good now at his peak, which we are comparing here? If not, doesn't the fact that he played so well in this series say something to you, in that when he was in his prime he would've been significantly better here? Or do you really think Jokic was that much better in this series (which was extremely close, despite Denver having better role players than LA) where it still goes the same way with prime LeBron replacing the 39 year old one? I personally don't see it, but curious as to why you do.

The Nuggets role players played better than the Lakers? Regardless, the real game was being between Jokic vs. LeBron/AD/Ham... and Russell neutralized the supposed '2nd star' Murray.

[ballzboyee]

Jokic: 28/16/10 on 59/33/93. ::: .320 WS/48, 14.3 BPM
LeBron: 28/7/9 on 57/39/74 ::: .191 WS/48, 10.6 BPM

23 year old Jokic in his first playoffs: 25/13/8 ::: .263 WS/48, 11.6 BPM

You wouldn't know what "close to as good" means if it hit you over the head. I just gandered a look at the advanced metrics of James Harden and peak Harden had two post season runs as good as LeBron this year. Embiid has literally never played as well as LeBron has in this year's playoffs (other than right now against the Knicks).

What Jokic is doing in the past two playoffs is breaking basketball as we know it with not just statistics, but game management that rivals peak LeBron. Murray may get the shine because he hits the big shots (after being the reason Denver is down each game) but Jokic is the steady, consistent engine that keeps Denver within distance minute after minute, game after game...

I view Jokic as kind of a father figure to the entire Denver Nuggets roster similar to how LeBron was a father figure to Kyrie. He ensures that this rag tag group of journeymen and non-all stars is allowed to explore their limits during the regular season, but come playoff time Jokic corrals them all back in line and everything becomes about game management allowing him to play chess against the opposing team's head coach.

This is why analytics are so overrated, and why I don't pay attention to them when Lebron fans try to use efficiency numbers to downgrade Kobe. Watch the tape. Lebron could guard all 5 positions and play 4 positions on offense at an All-NBA level. A large part of Jokic success is that he plays in a weak defensive era with no true defensive bruising bigs and where there are also 4 guards (shooters) spacing the floor for him at all times. He's not asked to do the things that traditional centers used be required to do. He's touching the ball 23 feet from the basket in 5-out and high-ball screen offenses that are impossible guard for defenses today and with the rules setup to allow offensive players to basically to abuse the defender off moving screens, dragging double screens, pick plays, and just really in generally shady illegal offense that puts the defender in a no-win situation. Jokic is a great at exploiting his matchups , finishing through contact, and finding the open man. This is where all his value comes from. He's an offensive hub, but his value is very system specific to this era with all the spacing and its lack of physicality. If you took Jokic out of this 5-out era with all its spacing, he's not giving you double digit assists at the center position and putting up these monster advanced stats. He's also going to have to play much more physical style of basketball where defenders can move him when touches the ball. I don't care what the stats say, he's not better than prime Lebron James. Go watch tape from that era of Lebron.

Funnily enough, my eye test tells me Jokic > LeBron. I watched the Spurs decimate a prime LeBron via great team play so it's not like he's this omnipotent being. So now tell me: how do we continue forward from here now that we're in a grid lock? Do you become emotional and call the other person an "idiot" or do you go and do some research to find ways to break the stalemate?

Advanced analytics allow us to separate feelings (biases for certain players like LeBron in your case) from facts. You can make all the excuses you want, but in reality Jokic is having a GOAT tier peak and folks like you will go down kicking and screaming if needed.

Yes, LeBron was an A+ offensive player and A+ defensive player. But Jokic is an A+++ offensive player and James Worthy said it best - he's a combination of Kareem's scoring and Magic's passing.

Prime Lebron would kill this era. It's important to realize Lebron is really from another era of basketball, and he has evolved his game to this era. Jokic is a product of this era, and he has perfected his game to it. There is a little bit of recency bias here. If you put a prime Lebron in this era of spacing where he could not be touched by the defender off the screen or in the pick and roll, he would manhandle this league with his combination of quickness and size. There is no analog to Lebron James a prime athlete in the history of the NBA. Despite the fact that he has evolved his game to be fairly effective, Lebron is not even close to the same athlete that he used to be. You are comparing apples and oranges. His game would be completely different because he would develop of different set of ball skills to take advantage of all of the free points the league is handing out on freebie rolls to the basket off screens from 3-point line where the defender can't even touch him.

[hardenASG13]

Explain. Also please comment, do you think Lebron now is close to as good now at his peak, which we are comparing here?

No, I think peak Lebron was notably better than he is now, for obvious reasons.

Or do you really think Jokic was that much better in this series

I do, yes.

I think that for primes, Jokic vs Lebron is a good conversation. I think Lebron has an excellent argument against Jokic prime to prime, I just also think that Jokic has a strong argument. Understand, I'm not saying Jokic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prime Lebron, that isn't my contention. I think they're on a similar level. Jokic is a better offensive player IMHO, and Lebron evened it out some with defense. And, of course, was excellent on offense himself.

What I object to is more how people are dismissing Jokic as not being worthy of the conversation, not so much advancing the idea that you HAVE to believe Jokic > Lebron for primes.

That's fair. I disagree that Jokic in this series was that much better than 39 year old Lebron, where as you say it's obvious that prime Lebron was much better than 39 year old Lebron. So much better, that I think prime Lebron wouldve been the best player in this series easily, as he was pretty close as 39 year old. It speaks to how good prime Lebron was, which I think many of the Jokic fanatics here are failing to remember correctly.

[LaLover11]

Explain. Also please comment, do you think Lebron now is close to as good now at his peak, which we are comparing here?

No, I think peak Lebron was notably better than he is now, for obvious reasons.

Or do you really think Jokic was that much better in this series

I do, yes.

I think that for primes, Jokic vs Lebron is a good conversation. I think Lebron has an excellent argument against Jokic prime to prime, I just also think that Jokic has a strong argument. Understand, I'm not saying Jokic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prime Lebron, that isn't my contention. I think they're on a similar level. Jokic is a better offensive player IMHO, and Lebron evened it out some with defense. And, of course, was excellent on offense himself.

What I object to is more how people are dismissing Jokic as not being worthy of the conversation, not so much advancing the idea that you HAVE to believe Jokic > Lebron for primes.

That's fair. I disagree that Jokic in this series was that much better than 39 year old Lebron, where as you say it's obvious that prime Lebron was much better than 39 year old Lebron. So much better, that I think prime Lebron wouldve been the best player in this series easily, as he was pretty close as 39 year old. It speaks to how good prime Lebron was, which I think many of the Jokic fanatics here are failing to remember correctly.

Bingo!

Great answer