Joel Embiid is NOT HIM. Period. Full stop.

[sixers4real]

Agreed. But we don’t really care. We’ve got Maxey

[Lockdown504090]

Embiid is just such an amazing, transcendental defender that Brunson was driving at him and cooking him at will all game long. In fact, Brunson is averaging 29 drives per game in this postseason, with the only one close to him being Doncic at 23. Wow, what a rim deterrent Embiid is!

The Knicks are shooting 46 percent in the paint against embiid. That’s among the best nunbers in the playoffs,

[tsherkin]

Embiid is a very good player. That's the baseline. He struggles with his scoring in the playoffs, and at least part of that is him never being healthy... but him never being healthy is still persistently an issue, so it's a valid criticism.

Him shooting horribly and tossing the ball everywhere but where it needed to go was a problem. Him playing passively and poorly was a problem. This was not his finest hour. He rebounded well and he exerted strong defensive pressure, both of which were good. There are some reasons for the other stuff, but there are also some defined patterns with him which are fair to acknowledge. It's clear he isn't, you know, Dirk or Hakeem or Shaq or whatever, in the sense of rising to the pressure in the postseason. But he's still a very, very good player. And it bears mentioning that Dirk's numbers in 2011 don't blow away the world, you know what I mean? So he could still theoretically win a title and flip some of the narrative.

So we'll see.

[Exp0sed]

Embiid had 9 turnovers yesterday (he actually had 10 but they didn't count one)

here's some fun stats for u:

LBJ has had the most 8+ turnovers games in playoffs history, he had 13 such games and that's playing 42.7 mpg in these games and ofc - he has 287 career playoff games. he has also averaged 7.4 assists in these 13 games. 13/287 = 4.5%

Harden is 2nd (2nd worst) all-time with 8 such games, in 39 mpg with 7 assists in those. he has played 164 playoff games, so 8/164=4.8%

3rd is Magic, 8 games out 190 (4.2%), he has 12.4 APG in those 8 games

4th is Joel Embiitch and he is a huge outlier in this respect

he had 6 such games out of 58 games good for 10.3%. yes, u got that right. throughout his career, over 10% of his playoff games resulted in 8 or more turnovers. that's mostly in the first rd, let's not forget

moreover, in these games he has avged 3.8(!) APG over 37.5 mpg

notice that all the players in this list are huge usage floor generals and all managed a much better AST\TO ratio even in those dreadful games, one of these is not like the others haha

Embiid gets shut down in the playoffs in an unprecedented manner and degree. he is that big of a choker.

btw, he's also the only player in NBA history to have back to back 8+ Turnover games in the playoffs, that was vs. the mighy Hawks a couple of seasons back

[Exp0sed]

Embiid is a very good player. That's the baseline. He struggles with his scoring in the playoffs, and at least part of that is him never being healthy... but him never being healthy is still persistently an issue, so it's a valid criticism.

Him shooting horribly and tossing the ball everywhere but where it needed to go was a problem. Him playing passively and poorly was a problem. This was not his finest hour. He rebounded well and he exerted strong defensive pressure, both of which were good. There are some reasons for the other stuff, but there are also some defined patterns with him which are fair to acknowledge. It's clear he isn't, you know, Dirk or Hakeem or Shaq or whatever, in the sense of rising to the pressure in the postseason. But he's still a very, very good player. And it bears mentioning that Dirk's numbers in 2011 don't blow away the world, you know what I mean? So he could still theoretically win a title and flip some of the narrative.

So we'll see.

I don't really understand this argument
two weeks before the playoffs he was dropping 40 in 3 quarters vs. the Pistons and Hornets. this has nothing to do with his health, he's just the biggest mental midget in NBA history

[tsherkin]

I don't really understand this argument
two weeks before the playoffs he was dropping 40 in 3 quarters vs. the Pistons and Hornets. this has nothing to do with his health, he's just the biggest mental midget in NBA history

Have you ever dealt with knee issues before? No sass, honest question.

If you have, particularly with the meniscus, then you will understand that sometimes the issues come and go. Something as simple as a weather change can make a huge difference. Could feel like a million bucks the day before, but the pressure changed and now everything sucks. Embiid had meniscus repair in February.

I hear you, I mean there is a consistent pattern to his issues. A physical defender like Mitchell Robinson works well against him. The way New York was doubling him, he clearly wasn't handling very well. I remarked about this in one of the many Embiid threads around, but he trundled down the court and made the same error against the double, trying to spin baseline, like eight times... and that was just while I was watching in the first half.

Dude has issues. SOME of the issues pertain to health and stamina, though. And again, he rebounded well and was looking to move the ball. 1st and 3rd quarter, though, he was looking solid in his shot selection. 4th wasn't bad either. But he was 6/15 inside the arc and that sucked.

Does that mean he has defined himself as below a given tier in comparisons? Sure, this isn't the first time it's happened. Is it also true that people overplay his postseason performances to some extent? Also yes. Are there some other factors here which should be acknowledged? Absolutely.

I really only bothered opening my mouth because folks are doing that thing where they exaggerate too much and create an opinion which isn't entirely true. Kinda like how for years and years, people treated Kobe like he was actually an inefficient scorer, you know what I mean?

[Exp0sed]

I don't really understand this argument
two weeks before the playoffs he was dropping 40 in 3 quarters vs. the Pistons and Hornets. this has nothing to do with his health, he's just the biggest mental midget in NBA history

Have you ever dealt with knee issues before? No sass, honest question.

If you have, particularly with the meniscus, then you will understand that sometimes the issues come and go. Something as simple as a weather change can make a huge difference. Could feel like a million bucks the day before, but the pressure changed and now everything sucks. Embiid had meniscus repair in February.

I hear you, I mean there is a consistent pattern to his issues. A physical defender like Mitchell Robinson works well against him. The way New York was doubling him, he clearly wasn't handling very well. I remarked about this in one of the many Embiid threads around, but he trundled down the court and made the same error against the double, trying to spin baseline, like eight times... and that was just while I was watching in the first half.

Dude has issues. SOME of the issues pertain to health and stamina, though. And again, he rebounded well and was looking to move the ball. 1st and 3rd quarter, though, he was looking solid in his shot selection. 4th wasn't bad either. But he was 6/15 inside the arc and that sucked.

Does that mean he has defined himself as below a given tier in comparisons? Sure, this isn't the first time it's happened. Is it also true that people overplay his postseason performances to some extent? Also yes. Are there some other factors here which should be acknowledged? Absolutely.

I really only bothered opening my mouth because folks are doing that thing where they exaggerate too much and create an opinion which isn't entirely true. Kinda like how for years and years, people treated Kobe like he was actually an inefficient scorer, you know what I mean?

idk, it sounds like we're in complete agreement
u said so urself, he tried to spin baseline like 8 times out of the double, is that due to health or to knee soreness?
the issue with Embiid is upstairs. would he better rn if was a 100%? sure but not significantly. he is who he is.

[tsherkin]

idk, it sounds like we're in complete agreement
u said so urself, he tried to spin baseline like 8 times out of the double, is that due to health or to knee soreness?
the issue with Embiid is upstairs. would he better rn if was a 100%? sure but not significantly. he is who he is.

I think he was probably trying to do stuff he might have got away with if he had his full explosion. But yeah, there were some decisions he was making which weren't... good. And he floated around the perimeter a lot more than he should have. Even Shaq made an astute remark about that, which is painful to admit because he's mostly an idiot when it comes to basketball analysis.

Embiid would have been better if he were fully healthy, yes. But only to a point, I agree. Some of the issue is fatigue, but some of it is how he plays, for sure. And yeah, he did not do well against Robinson at all. But we'll see next game, right? He was able to contribute even if he struggled with his shot in this one. The jumpers will fall eventually.

It does bear mention that it's only been 2 games since he put 50 on the Knicks in their previous win. It's also worth mentioning that Game 3 is the only game where he's shot better than 41.4% and he's been under 40% in the other three games. He's been struggling the whole series. Aside from scoring, this is his best overall game of the series... and he's still technically at like +2.2% rTS relative to playoff league average, crappy FG% notwithstanding. Some food for thought there. Very David Robinson/Karl Malone-esque, though. Like, REALLY Karl Malone-esque, actually, in terms of how the jumper is abandoning him and his FG% is cratering.

We'll see if we get 97 Karl or 98 Karl come Game 6, you know what I mean?

[stormi]

Embiid is just such an amazing, transcendental defender that Brunson was driving at him and cooking him at will all game long. In fact, Brunson is averaging 29 drives per game in this postseason, with the only one close to him being Doncic at 23. Wow, what a rim deterrent Embiid is!

The Knicks are shooting 46 percent in the paint against embiid. That’s among the best nunbers in the playoffs,

He's quite literally playing on one leg right now.

He can't jump. He can't run. He has no lift. He can barely rebound. He can't finish around the rim with any real emphasis. I've seen this said somewhere else and i'll parrot, he looks about as small as I've ever seen him on the court. The meniscus has hampered his ability to shift, pivot and contest (his defense) much more dramatically than it's affected his offense.

Thibodeau is blatantly sending Hart, OG, Brunson etc downhill with speed en masse because Embiid is vulnerable in space right now.

[Sixers in 4]

He shouldn't be playing he can barely move and Nurse is playing him the entire 2nd half.

I love how the GB pretends like we don't know what Embiid looks like healthy. If you want to bash him for always getting injured around this time go ahead. Completely fair.

But stop pretending this is what Embiid is as a player. It isn't. He's clearly hurt.

These two things contradict one another. At a certain point you are what you are, and that's always injured this time of year. You acknowledge that it always happens, and then want to deny that's part of what he is as a player?

You sure it's not you who's pretending at this point? Healthy playoff Embiid is a Healthy Kawhi. Neither exist.

Listen, Embiid is an excellent player, but when you want the MVP, and you bitch and moan about it, don't complain when you're held to a different standard than the rest when you don't get it done.

In the last part you are sort of telling on yourself. What other player on the board looks at a player gutting it out through a serious injury and says that is the best version of him?

It doesn't even happen with Kawhi on the rare chance he plays hurt, which he rarely does. You want to criticize him for always getting injured in the playoffs go ahead it's fair game and extremely frustrating as a Sixer fan. However, if you are watching Embiid barely able to move who can't jump without hobbling on one leg and say that is how he always looks. He is out there choking sorry but you are ridiculous. The dude shouldn't be playing this team isn't good enough to potentially do additional damage playing hurt.

[nikster]

idk, it sounds like we're in complete agreement
u said so urself, he tried to spin baseline like 8 times out of the double, is that due to health or to knee soreness?
the issue with Embiid is upstairs. would he better rn if was a 100%? sure but not significantly. he is who he is.

I think he was probably trying to do stuff he might have got away with if he had his full explosion. But yeah, there were some decisions he was making which weren't... good. And he floated around the perimeter a lot more than he should have. Even Shaq made an astute remark about that, which is painful to admit because he's mostly an idiot when it comes to basketball analysis.

Embiid would have been better if he were fully healthy, yes. But only to a point, I agree. Some of the issue is fatigue, but some of it is how he plays, for sure. And yeah, he did not do well against Robinson at all. But we'll see next game, right? He was able to contribute even if he struggled with his shot in this one. The jumpers will fall eventually.

It does bear mention that it's only been 2 games since he put 50 on the Knicks in their previous win. It's also worth mentioning that Game 3 is the only game where he's shot better than 41.4% and he's been under 40% in the other three games. He's been struggling the whole series. Aside from scoring, this is his best overall game of the series... and he's still technically at like +2.2% rTS relative to playoff league average, crappy FG% notwithstanding. Some food for thought there. Very David Robinson/Karl Malone-esque, though. Like, REALLY Karl Malone-esque, actually, in terms of how the jumper is abandoning him and his FG% is cratering.

We'll see if we get 97 Karl or 98 Karl come Game 6, you know what I mean?

What made me sympathize with him was the reports of the migraines he was javing before the game, Possibly related to the bells palsy. Those can be absolutely debilitating. As much as I love clowning on Embiid I don't particularly blame him for this one

[stormi]

However, if you are watching Embiid barely able to move who can't jump without hobbling on one leg and say that is how he always looks. He is out there choking sorry but you are ridiculous. The dude shouldn't be playing this team isn't good enough to potentially do additional damage playing hurt.

It's the part that's saddened me most about watching Embiid. His defense and ability to completely shut down the paint was always his skill that I marveled the most. He's not really blocking shots with any real conviction and he isn't dunking the ball.

The people that are discrediting how drastically the meniscus has impacted his ability to be an anchor and defend in space simply do not watch him play basketball with any regularity.

[tsherkin]

What made me sympathize with him was the reports of the migraines he was javing before the game, Possibly related to the bells palsy. Those can be absolutely debilitating. As much as I love clowning on Embiid I don't particularly blame him for this one

I sympathize with his meniscus issues, because my right meniscus is borked as well. And my right LCL. I know very well what that feels like some days, and I'll never be confused with an elite athlete (nor would I have been in my youth, lol).

Migraines suck. Knee stuff sucks. It's not hard to see why he's slower and has less burst and so forth than usual. It's unfortunate because he's Samuel L in Unbreakable, though: Mr. Glass. He's ALWAYS injured, so this is a perpetual issue with him. I think Philly would probably be better if they leaned on him less for volume scoring so he wasn't tossing his body around quite as much, but it is what it is.

Maxey is good enough right now that at least this is a series. I doubt they win this series given that they need to win 2 more in a row, but they've given themselves a chance. It's rough that their two wins had Embiid going for 50 in one and Maxey for 46 in the other, though. That bodes ill for their ability to sustain victory enough to beat the Knicks.

[stormi]

I feel bad for Embiid. He's been saddled with an average at best supporting cast and wasted almost his entire prime in PHI. That Harris contract has haunted that franchise for years. Once he's gone I expect the Sixers to get someone much better and we can revisit whether Embiid is a fraud or not.

In 2019 he had a solid supporting cast:

Jimmy Butler
Ben Simmons
Tobias Harris
JJ Redick

However he came up short that year because that year Kawhi was HIM.

In that series Joel Embiid was +90 in the 237 minutes he played and the 76ers were -109 in the 99 minutes he sat.

Butler: +15 on and -34 off
JJ: -2 on and -17 off
Simmons: -16 on and -3 off
Harris: -33 on and +14 off

Embiid was also +10 in 45(!) minutes in that game 7 and the 76ers were outscored by 12 in the 3 minutes he sat, which was historically unfortunate.

That supporting cast was shaky at best outside of Butler and they had rotting corpses for a bench. Greg Monroe? Mike Scott? James Ennis?

Read on Twitter

He wasn't even near the complete offensive player he was in that series that he is today, and didn't shoot the ball particularly well either, but his presence on the defensive end was utterly floor tilting. It's always been his most consistent and important attribute.

One of the most impactful playoff defenders statistically of his generation. I hope after a summer of rest and rehab he can get back to moving the way he was, because it's a sore sight watching him labor around the hardwood.

[Rendei]

I feel bad for Embiid. He's been saddled with an average at best supporting cast and wasted almost his entire prime in PHI. That Harris contract has haunted that franchise for years. Once he's gone I expect the Sixers to get someone much better and we can revisit whether Embiid is a fraud or not.

it's not like they didn't try to get him help. he had ben simmons before he lost his confidence and became injury prone, jimmy butler, james harden and complimentary pieces. not to mention tyrese maxey, who is proving to be one of the best guards in the game. if joel didn't have to get a piece of his lateral meniscus removed a couple months ago, the sixers would be the only legit contenders in the east imo

I mean, I guess. Simmons was always a head case. Harden is who he is. Jimmy didn't want to be there. Maxey is just another in a long line of high usage chuckers that doesn't play defense. I get that he's going to score and can go off and win you games but those types (Luka, Booker, Sexton, Harden) don't win championships. Then there's the whole passing on Tatum to take Fultz and losing the following year's #1 pick. It's been a disaster. Embiid has either been injured or shrunk in big moment so he's not faultless. I'm just saying, when they replace Harris with someone like George and improve their depth, we'll finally see whether Embiid is truly not "him" because he'll have no excuses.

There will ALWAYS be excuses.

[Sixers in 4]

I feel bad for Embiid. He's been saddled with an average at best supporting cast and wasted almost his entire prime in PHI. That Harris contract has haunted that franchise for years. Once he's gone I expect the Sixers to get someone much better and we can revisit whether Embiid is a fraud or not.

In 2019 he had a solid supporting cast:

Jimmy Butler
Ben Simmons
Tobias Harris
JJ Redick

However he came up short that year because that year Kawhi was HIM.

In that series Joel Embiid was +90 in the 237 minutes he played and the 76ers were -109 in the 99 minutes he sat.

Butler: +15 on and -34 off
JJ: -2 on and -17 off
Simmons: -16 on and -3 off
Harris: -33 on and +14 off

Embiid was also +10 in 45(!) minutes in that game 7 and the 76ers were outscored by 12 in the 3 minutes he sat, which was historically unfortunate.

That supporting cast was shaky at best outside of Butler and they had rotting corpses for a bench. Greg Monroe? Mike Scott? James Ennis?

Read on Twitter

He wasn't even near the complete offensive player he was in that series that he is today, and didn't shoot the ball particularly well either, but his presence on the defensive end was utterly floor tilting. It's always been his most consistent and important attribute.

One of the most impactful playoff defenders statistically of his generation. I hope after a summer of rest and rehab he can get back to moving the way he was, because it's a sore sight watching him labor around the hardwood.

Agreed.

It was sad particularly watching him allow guys to get to the rim and not challenging shots. Then watching at the end block and challenge Brunson like he should have been doing all game but then watch him hobble afterwards.

https://youtu.be/M5mZF97k6DI?feature=shared&t=266

[Jaqua92]

Triple double, elite D in OT, and a team high +14. Only the casuals hating on Embiid

The irony is that this is a "casual" box score take.

He was god awful. Super inefficient, completely frazzled all game, and had big time turnovers.

If it wasn't for Brunson choking and the Knicks choking, Philly is done. Embiid's was bailed out. Worst game he's played all pose season.

[Cubbies2120]

Triple double, elite D in OT, and a team high +14. Only the casuals hating on Embiid

The irony is that this is a "casual" box score take.

He was god awful. Super inefficient, completely frazzled all game, and had big time turnovers.

If it wasn't for Brunson choking and the Knicks choking, Philly is done. Embiid's was bailed out. Worst game he's played all pose season.

Yep, I'd urge the people who are somehow re-writing this as a good game (or hell, even an 'ok' game) to rewatch the 4th quarter and watch Embiid on all plays.

4 turnovers (!) in the biggest quarter of the season
1 of 4 shooting

If Maxey doesn't go ballistic to even force overtime (down 6 with 26 seconds), we're talking all-time great choke.

[Johnny Bball]

Now imagine Embiid without a very friendly whistle.

I'm not sure how the guy doesn't get called for his obvious flagrants, moving screens, hacks, and how he gets to the line for so many obvious offensive fouls. The guy does not deserve the star player treatment.

[Sixers in 4]

Now imagine Embiid without a very friendly whistle.

I'm not sure how the guy doesn't get called for his obvious flagrants, moving screens, hacks, and how he gets to the line for so many obvious offensive fouls. The guy does not deserve the star player treatment.

He won the MVP last year and was the betting favorite to win it again before getting injured. If he isn't deserving of the star treatment who is?

The embiid haters are ridiculous.