Bilge wrote:Things even out considerably. Just look at the league average ppg during the Jordan years.
110.8
110.2
109.9
108.2
109.2
107
106.3
105.3
105.3
first retirement
No, they don't "even out considerably" -- not at all. What "arguments" like this about league average ppg fail to take into account is that Jordan was not using the same number of possessions as Kobe to score his 30-35 points, nor was he using the same percentage of the team's possessions that Kobe does. Furthermore, Jordan's Bulls were always near the bottom of the league in terms of pace (i.e., number of possessions); they were an efficient offensive team because their primary star was very efficient and they ran an efficient offensive system.
Maybe braindead 15 year olds will fall for your little trick, but upon examination it's a very tenuous argument. If you want to scale individual numbers based on league average team ppg, then you also have to scale the amount of team possessions used based on percentage and then scale the ppg accordingly. Let me help you with some of that math:
Kobe in 2006 and 2007 used an average of 32.5% of league average team possessions.
In 1990 and 1991, Jordan used an average of 27.0% of league average team possessions. So Kobe used 5.5% more possessions (over 20% more possessions than Jordan on average) as compared to the team league average than Jordan during the years in question.
Now, what you'd have us believe is that it's simply a matter of saying, "hey, Kobe averaged 33.5 ppg when the league average was 97.9 ppg (as it was for '06/'07), so imagine what he'd average if the league average were 106.6 ppg! (as it was for '90/'91)." What you'd first need to do if you wanted to employ this strategy in an intellectually honest way (which I realize doesn't concern you, but I'll proceed anyway) is to scale Jordan's numbers for usage of 32.5% of average team possessions back then, for comparison's sake. Here are Jordan's actual 1990 and 1991 ppg numbers (using 27% of possessions) followed by his ppg numbers scaled to 32.5% of possession usage:
1990: 33.6 ppg/40.4 ppg
1991: 31.5 ppg/37.9 ppg
Similarly, here are what Kobe's numbers from '06 and '07 look like when scaled to 27.0% of league average possessions:
2006: 35.4 ppg/29.4 ppg
2007: 31.6 ppg/26.3 ppg
So there you have it. If you're going to scale for league average ppg, you also have to scale for number of possessions used compared to the league average, which you never do (unsurprisingly). There were more possessions back then (hence more points), but Jordan himself wasn't using those possessions to get his points.
G35 wrote:Since the 04-05 season he has scored 40+ points 56 times in the regular season. Over that time he has played in 267 games. So thats 40+ every 4.7 games.
That's fair enough, but then instead of comparing that number to Jordan's career mark, you have to compare it to '87-'89 Jordan (i.e., when he didn't have another big time scorer yet either). Jordan averaged one game of 40+ points for every 3.5 games in the three regular seasons from '87-'89 without a legit secondary scorer.
It's dishonest to compare Kobe playing by himself to Jordan's career, which includes many years when he had a great team and legit secondary scorer in Pippen. Compare apples to apples as far as possible.
G35 wrote:Kobe's line
19-28 67% FG, 4-8 3pt 50%, 4-4 FT's, 46 points
I think that pretty much sums up nicely the THEORY that players have to have 15-20 FTs/FTA's to score in the 40's.
Next.......
Umm, Kobe has scored 40+ with fewer than 10 FTA in the past 3 seasons (where he has 55 games of 40+) a grand total of 6 times. That is, in just 10.9% of the games that Kobe has scored 40+ in from '05-'07 has he attempted fewer than 10 FTA.
Jordan from '90-'92 (same ages as Kobe's '05-'07; Jordan scored 40+ pts 44 times during this stretch) had 19 games of 40+ with fewer than 10 FTA. That is, in 43.2% of his 40+ point games during the same ages, Jordan scored 40+ without attempting 10 FTA. For those who aren't following, this means that Jordan was able to hit 40+ points significantly more without the benefit of high FTA totals. He made buckets. Which leads us to our next point...
Of the 55 games of 40+ from '05-'07, Kobe made more than 15 FGA in 28 of those games (50.9% of games).
Of the 44 games of 40+ for Jordan during the same ages, he made >15 FG's in 38 of those games (86.4% of games). Again, Jordan made buckets.
Of the 55 games of 40+ that he's scored between '05-'07, Kobe attempted 15 FTA or more 25 times (i.e., in 45.5% of games), while in the 44 games of 40+ that Jordan scored during the same ages, he attempted 15+ FTA just 9 times (i.e., in just 20.5% of games)
So it's not a "theory" that Kobe has significantly benefitted from trips to the charity stripe in his 40+ point games, though JB's point was perhaps a bit overstated. Other players (like Lebron/Wade) have benefitted even more than Kobe, though their styles of play are much more aggressive than Kobe, making comparisons difficult (which is one reason I selected Jordan/Kobe's seasons at the same ages for the above comparison).
G35 wrote:Jordans career FTA avg 8.2
Kobe's career FTA avg 7.7
Jordans career high 11.9 FTA's was nearly Shaq like compared to Kobe who has never passed the 11 FTA barrier for a season.
So even in this era that is geared to the offensive player Kobe still doesn't get the Baby Jesus treatment Jordan did.
Nice try, slick.
Jordan's career high in FTA/gm (11.9) came in 1987, when he averaged 37.1 ppg and attempted 27.8 shots per game. He was also obscenely aggressive going to the rim in comparison with '05-'07 Kobe. Jordan averaged >10 FTA/gm just twice in his career despite being a visibly more aggressive offensive player than a guy like Kobe for at least 7 seasons.
I also like how for everything else, Kobe fans want to look at Kobe since Shaq left, yet here you try to look at Kobe's career FTA average.
Talk about disingenuous...From '05-'07, since Shaq left, Kobe has averaged 10.1 FTA/gm. He was age 26-28 during these years. From age 26-28, Jordan averaged 8.1 FTA/gm despite being visibly more aggressive than Kobe.
Who's "Baby Jesus" now? And <Kobe fan> OMG OMG the scores were so high back then! More chances to draw fouls! </Kobe fan> Yet, oddly, Jordan averaged 2 fewer FTA/gm than Kobe during the same age in a faster paced league despite being visibly more aggressive. Makes you wonder...or at least it should.
G35 wrote:And you still don't see how even with a rule change in place that players now still don't get the same amount of calls as Jordan did....
There are about half a dozen players who have averaged more FTA than prime Jordan ('90-'93) over the last few seasons. So you're right, they don't get the same amount of calls -- they get more.
tkb wrote:50% isn't close to unanimous at all. If there were 3 candidates 50% of votes would actually be closer to a dead tie at 33% than an unanimous vote. I know you said it's "as close as your going to get", but that's a moot point, because it isn't close to unanimous at all.
There are 4 legit GOAT candidates: Jordan, Wilt, Magic, and Kareem (to hear Laker fans tell it, at least; I feel Magic is a veeeery slight step below this group, but whatever). Jordan gets way more than 50% of votes in most all-time polls -- it's more like 70-85%, depending. Which goes to JB's point.
I'll address the rest of the haters' "arguments" later tonight.
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