Re-do the 2016 draft

[Doctor MJ]

Also undrafted in 2016 Alex Caruso is an NBA champion and good starter and Fred VanVleet turned himself into an all-star as well so those two almost certainly go top 15 or 16 in a redraft.

Ooh, I forgot about Caruso. May tweak my re-draft.

[Deivork]

That Dragan Bender pick is really paying dividends.

There's a universe somewhere where Suns picked Sabonis and then had an excuse to pass on Ayton . Resulting in a lineup that has Booker, Luka, Sabonis and Bridges.

Damn...

[Doctor MJ]

Man, that is one bad draft, Ben Simmons played practically 4 seasons and looks like he's done and he still goes lottery in redraft...

1. Jaylen Brown
2. Domantas Sabonis
3. Pascal Siakam
4. Jamal Murray
5. Brandon Ingram
6. Dejounte Murray
7. Malcom Brogdon
8. Jakob Poeltl
9. Buddy Hield
10. Caris LeVert
11. Taurean Prince
12. Malik Beasley
13. Ben Simmons

You named several allstar and All-nba players, it's far from a bad draft. There's no superstar but many drafts don't have a superstar. How many drafts produced 5 all-nba players (plus Dejounte and Jamal)?

Yeah, this isn't what a terrible draft looks like.

Young'uns should go and look at the 2000 draft to see something truly awful.

[Godymas]

wow this draft is actually a lot harder than I thought, according to VORP Sabonis is the highest, but I can't really justify taking him #1.

Which then kind of leads me towards taking..Pascal Siakam #1? Does that seem right? Does Siakam even become the player he is if he's drafted anywhere else?

Obviously Jaylen Brown went #3 and so he kind of feels like he might go #1, and yet he isn't really a #1 overall type of guy, the ceiling just isn't there, he has clear weaknesses as a player that make him less complete than other guys that go #1.

And then there's Ben Simmons who had a few good years and then fell off a cliff. I mean does a team still take Ben Simmons #1 just for the potential of contending with him immediately knowing he will eventually become really bad?

Then there's another aspect of..should there be some consideration given to the team that drafts based on what they wanted or should it just be a flat draft?

I think it is going to have to be Domas Sabonis #1, there's no way around it, and the fit with Embiid would probably work similar to how Sabonis worked next to Myles Turner.

1. Domantas Sabonis
2. Pascal Siakam
3. Jaylen Brown
4. Jamal Murray
5. Brandon Ingram
6. Dejounte Murray
7. Jakob Poeltl
8. Malcolm Brogdon
9. Caris LeVert
10. Malik Beasley
11. Ivica Zubac
12. Buddy Hield
13. Ben Simmons
14. Georges Niang

might be the redraft of the lottery

god this draft really sucked

edit - i'm going to put the draft with consideration for team, but the above is pretty much the order of players looking at careers with everyone above Ben Simmons being starting caliber today or talented enough for the modern game to justify taking above a guy that was a star for a few years.

if i were to do this with consideration for team

1. Philly - Domantas Sabonis
2. LA - Pascal Siakam
3. Boston - Jaylen Brown
4. PHX - Jamal Murray
5. MIN - Dejounte Murray
6. NOP - Brandon Ingram
7. DEN - Malcolm Brogdon
8. SAC - Taurean Prince maybe
9. TOR - Jakob Poeltl
10. MIL - Malik Beasley
11. ORL - Zubac
12. Utah - Caris LeVert
13. PHX - Ben Simmons
14. CHI - Buddy Hield

[Jadoogar]

Wow, that draft sucks. With all of the negativity going around the 2024 draft, I can't think it'll be THIS bad.

what are you guys talking about? 5 all-nba, 6 allstars and Jamal Murray. If the 2024 draft turns out like this, it's a homerun.

[Doctor MJ]

A take I fully expect to get flamed for but I still take Simmons #1 and hope that in a parallel universe he can figure out whatever his limiting factors are. Still one of the more naturally talented #1 picks in recent years, and there's no major opportunity cost with everyone else in this draft seemingly topping out as a generic all-star at best

I don't want to flame you, but I'll say that when I do this process I really like considering guys in the context of different teams. Maybe in a parallel universe things work out differently for Simmons in Philly, but quite honestly the issues that eventually came to a head where apparent and being discussed for years before that, so if Simmons was going to figure those issues out, I think we would have seen it.

And I'd say in a nutshell for that was a situation where a) there was a better offensive player than him, and b) that player needed free space in the paint. I expect Simmons would struggle in other similar situations, so then it's a question of Where wouldn't Simmons struggle?

The obvious answer is on a team where it made sense to build the offense around Simmons, but given the ceiling on such a team, even teams where it would make sense for in the moment may not want to commit themselves long term.

[Mr Puddles]

Suns had two lottery picks and ended with a once in a lifetime duo of Bender&Chriss

The suns' streak of bad high lottery picks has flown under the radar a bit:

In recent years, Len #5, Bender #4, Chriss #8, Josh Jackson #4, Ayton #1

They haven't nailed a single one of their top 8 picks since Walter Davis in 1977.

All of the Suns' good picks over the years have been late loto: e.g. Booker #13, Nash #15, Stoudamire #9, Marion #9, Bridges #9.

[ChipotleWest]

As I mentiond in another thread it's crazy to me that Sixers could have drafted Brown in 2016 then Tatum in 2017, and had a team of Embiid, Tatum, Brown.

[dennythedino]

As I mentiond in another thread it's crazy to me that Sixers could have drafted Brown in 2016 then Tatum in 2017, and had a team of Embiid, Tatum, Brown.

Brown was pretty raw early on. I would imagine Philly would have used him as trade bait before he got a chance to truly break out.

[JDR720]

Simmons still goes top 10. Maybe top 5.

He's the most talented of the group and even with his career seemingly ending early, his resume is still stronger than most of those guys.

[ejftw]

Man the undrafted that year with Caruso, Finney-Smith, Jones Jr, Nwaba, Payton II, Van Vleet.

[Grahf]

Man, that is one bad draft, Ben Simmons played practically 4 seasons and looks like he's done and he still goes lottery in redraft...

1. Jaylen Brown
2. Domantas Sabonis
3. Pascal Siakam
4. Jamal Murray
5. Brandon Ingram
6. Dejounte Murray
7. Malcom Brogdon
8. Jakob Poeltl
9. Buddy Hield
10. Caris LeVert
11. Taurean Prince
12. Malik Beasley
13. Ben Simmons

You named several allstar and All-nba players, it's far from a bad draft. There's no superstar but many drafts don't have a superstar. How many drafts produced 5 all-nba players (plus Dejounte and Jamal)?

Yeah, this isn't what a terrible draft looks like.

Young'uns should go and look at the 2000 draft to see something truly awful.

That draft was so **** terrible that you can honestly argue Hedo Turkoglu - who never made a single all-star team - deserves to go #1 overall in a redraft.

Poaching this from Wikipedia: Using the WARP (wins above replacement player) metric, the 2000 NBA draft class collectively produced at a rate of 17.3 wins worse than a group of "average replacement players", effectively making this draft class the only one in NBA history to leave the league's talent pool worse than it had been before.

[Moonbeam]

Suns had two lottery picks and ended with a once in a lifetime duo of Bender&Chriss

The suns' streak of bad high lottery picks has flown under the radar a bit:

In recent years, Len #5, Bender #4, Chriss #8, Josh Jackson #4, Ayton #1

They haven't nailed a single one of their top 8 picks since Walter Davis in 1977.

All of the Suns' good picks over the years have been late loto: Booker #13, Nash #15, Stoudamire #9, Marion #9, Bridges #9.

Larry Nance at #20 was an amazing pick.

[Mr Puddles]

Suns had two lottery picks and ended with a once in a lifetime duo of Bender&Chriss

The suns' streak of bad high lottery picks has flown under the radar a bit:

In recent years, Len #5, Bender #4, Chriss #8, Josh Jackson #4, Ayton #1

They haven't nailed a single one of their top 8 picks since Walter Davis in 1977.

All of the Suns' good picks over the years have been late loto: Booker #13, Nash #15, Stoudamire #9, Marion #9, Bridges #9.

Larry Nance at #20 was an amazing pick.

There have been some other good ones late in the draft, Leandro barbosa #28, Michael Finley #21, Cedric Ceballos #48, Wesley Person #21, TJ Warren #14, and I'm sure I'm leaving some out

Around the top of the lottery they've been spectacularly bad though

[Vampirate]

A take I fully expect to get flamed for but I still take Simmons #1 and hope that in a parallel universe he can figure out whatever his limiting factors are. Still one of the more naturally talented #1 picks in recent years, and there's no major opportunity cost with everyone else in this draft seemingly topping out as a generic all-star at best

I don't want to flame you, but I'll say that when I do this process I really like considering guys in the context of different teams. Maybe in a parallel universe things work out differently for Simmons in Philly, but quite honestly the issues that eventually came to a head where apparent and being discussed for years before that, so if Simmons was going to figure those issues out, I think we would have seen it.

And I'd say in a nutshell for that was a situation where a) there was a better offensive player than him, and b) that player needed free space in the paint. I expect Simmons would struggle in other similar situations, so then it's a question of Where wouldn't Simmons struggle?

The obvious answer is on a team where it made sense to build the offense around Simmons, but given the ceiling on such a team, even teams where it would make sense for in the moment may not want to commit themselves long term.

All the skills of a guard at 6"10 except 1.

Won't shoot.

Not only a horrible shooter, but a player that won't shoot.

Siakam entered the as a horrible shooter, but was never a player that 'won't shoot'.

That's what separated them as players, and well Ben from everyone else.

[MagicMatic]

As a Magic fan I’d rather not think about it at all.

[Calvin Klein]

Suns had two lottery picks and ended with a once in a lifetime duo of Bender&Chriss

It’s worse. They traded bogdan bogdanovic for one of those.

Every tank year from the suns has been wasted.

2013 Alex Len
2016 bender / Chriss
2017 josh Jackson
2018 deandre Ayton
2019 cam Johnson

[Mak]

Man, that is one bad draft, Ben Simmons played practically 4 seasons and looks like he's done and he still goes lottery in redraft...

1. Jaylen Brown
2. Domantas Sabonis
3. Pascal Siakam
4. Jamal Murray
5. Brandon Ingram
6. Dejounte Murray
7. Malcom Brogdon
8. akob Poeltl
9. Buddy Hield
10. Caris LeVert
11. Taurean Prince
12. Malik Beasley
13. Ben Simmons

I don’t think this is a bad draft. Multiple all stars and at least two hall of fame players.

[Doctor MJ]

A take I fully expect to get flamed for but I still take Simmons #1 and hope that in a parallel universe he can figure out whatever his limiting factors are. Still one of the more naturally talented #1 picks in recent years, and there's no major opportunity cost with everyone else in this draft seemingly topping out as a generic all-star at best

I don't want to flame you, but I'll say that when I do this process I really like considering guys in the context of different teams. Maybe in a parallel universe things work out differently for Simmons in Philly, but quite honestly the issues that eventually came to a head where apparent and being discussed for years before that, so if Simmons was going to figure those issues out, I think we would have seen it.

And I'd say in a nutshell for that was a situation where a) there was a better offensive player than him, and b) that player needed free space in the paint. I expect Simmons would struggle in other similar situations, so then it's a question of Where wouldn't Simmons struggle?

The obvious answer is on a team where it made sense to build the offense around Simmons, but given the ceiling on such a team, even teams where it would make sense for in the moment may not want to commit themselves long term.

All the skills of a guard at 6"10 except 1.

Won't shoot.

Not only a horrible shooter, but a player that won't shoot.

Siakam entered the as a horrible shooter, but was never a player that 'won't shoot'.

That's what separated them as players, and well Ben from everyone else.

Well the thing is there: He clearly got in his own head about it and became a worse player with time instead of better because of that.

So then the question is: What could keep him going that way mentally? Because once it happened, everything went off the rails.

[xxSnEaKyPxx]

Brown probably loses 1-on-1 polls vs. Ingram and Murray 2 years ago. Also about a toss-up vs. Sabonis and Siakam I'd say.

Now I'd say he's topped everyone. Hard worker for sure but team culture helped a lot.

Sabonis and Siakam is interesting.

Does Siakam develop as well as he did in another environment? It’s certainly possible, but at the time the Raptors were doing amazing at developing players, and it could be argued he wouldn’t have that same growth in a different situation. Of course, it’s entirely possible he would have as well, so who knows.

Overall, I think it’s easier to fit Siakam onto a team and have success. As great as Domas is, he just doesn’t really fit today’s NBA all that well. Finding a front court partner for him is very tough to do, on paper, Myles Turner should have been a pretty perfect fit as a guy who can stay on the perimeter on offense, but protect the basket on defense, but even that didn’t work out. I just don’t know who you put next to him that covered Domas’ flaws on defense without getting in his way offensively. Those players are out there, just typically tough to acquire.