Re: Post Mortem 2023/24 - Orlando Magic (Eliminated in 1st Round)
Posted: Sun May 5, 2024 11:14 pm
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Johnny Tomala wrote:Keep, keep, better, treadmill.
I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes $37m.cgf wrote:Lot of respect to Orlando for a great season. That team is long & tough as hell. Priority has to be getting a PG, something like:
Franz Wagner + Mo Wagner for Darius Garland
Anthony Black for DeJounte Murray
Overpay Immanuel Quickley in FA
basketballRob wrote:I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes like $36m.cgf wrote:Lot of respect to Orlando for a great season. That team is long & tough as hell. Priority has to be getting a PG, something like:
Franz Wagner + Mo Wagner for Darius Garland
Anthony Black for DeJounte Murray
Overpay Immanuel Quickley in FA
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Orlando looks at Franz and Paolo as a younger version of Tatum and Brown. Franz had an off year shooting, so he probably won't get the max. Brown had a bad 3rd season and didn't get the max either. Orlando has $32m in cap space or $43m if they choose not to keep Ingles. They'll be able to find more shooting and playmaking. Plus, the Magic are really high on Black.cgf wrote:basketballRob wrote:I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes like $36m.cgf wrote:Lot of respect to Orlando for a great season. That team is long & tough as hell. Priority has to be getting a PG, something like:
Franz Wagner + Mo Wagner for Darius Garland
Anthony Black for DeJounte Murray
Overpay Immanuel Quickley in FA
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Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.
There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.
I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.
Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.
basketballRob wrote:Orlando looks at Franz and Paolo as a younger version of Tatum and Brown. Franz had an off year shooting, so he probably won't get the max. Brown had a bad 3rd season and didn't get the max either. Orlando has $32m in cap space or $43m if they choose not to keep Ingles. They'll be able to find more shooting and playmaking. Plus, the Magic are really high on Black.cgf wrote:basketballRob wrote:I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes like $36m.
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Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.
There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.
I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.
Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.
I personally like Simons. Portland is a borderline tax team and might give up Simons for a couple of picks. They have Henderson and Sharpe as the future backcourt.
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Bobby Marks thinks Franz will get $26-28m and $18-20m for Suggs. There is no reason to extend Franz this offseason unless he takes $26-28m. His cap hold is $21m in 2025. We could wait and potentially have $40m to offer Mitchell or offer White a big contract.cgf wrote:basketballRob wrote:Orlando looks at Franz and Paolo as a younger version of Tatum and Brown. Franz had an off year shooting, so he probably won't get the max. Brown had a bad 3rd season and didn't get the max either. Orlando has $32m in cap space or $43m if they choose not to keep Ingles. They'll be able to find more shooting and playmaking. Plus, the Magic are really high on Black.cgf wrote:
Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.
There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.
I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.
Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.
I personally like Simons. Portland is a borderline tax team and might give up Simons for a couple of picks. They have Henderson and Sharpe as the future backcourt.
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We'll see if you can get Franz signed to a bargain, but 2nd contracts often pay as much for potential as performance because teams are paying for the player they expect to have during the course of that 2nd contract, not just the player they got on the rookie deal. That's why Garland is paid as much as he is, that's why RJ got similar money to Brunson & Randle, and that's why I'm skeptical you'll get Franz signed for under 30M AAV.
This might be controversial, but I don't think the Tatum/Brown model is one teams should be looking to emulate, but one that teams should be learning from the failures of. I love long skilled wings that can defend as much as anyone, but the most successful teams have had their star power more spread around and gotten more creation/playmaking from their stars. Just like the clippers, the Celtics lack creation and their offense stagnates too often for how much talent they have.
I like Simons for you too, but I see him in a similar tier to Quickley...more explosive but less versatile...and am higher on Garland moving forward. But if you can get Simons for picks alone then it's certainly possible for Simons + Franz to help you more than Garland + whatever you did with those picks. I'm just still very high on Garland and think he would absolutely explode if you trusted him to run your offense with Paolo, Suggs, WCJ/Isaac, etc. around him.
Just as a fan of a rival eastern conference playoff team (Knicks). You'd scare me more with Garland + picks, than you would with Franz + Simons.
Marvin Martian wrote:Derozan offers no spacing and is 2-3 years from retirement
cgf wrote:basketballRob wrote:I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes like $36m.cgf wrote:Lot of respect to Orlando for a great season. That team is long & tough as hell. Priority has to be getting a PG, something like:
Franz Wagner + Mo Wagner for Darius Garland
Anthony Black for DeJounte Murray
Overpay Immanuel Quickley in FA
Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app
Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.
There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.
I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.
Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.
Roy T wrote:Marvin Martian wrote:Derozan offers no spacing and is 2-3 years from retirement
Those 2-3 years match the sixers title window much better. They have to start a rebuild in a couple of years anyways.
UcanUwill wrote:cgf wrote:basketballRob wrote:I like Franz better than Garland. I doubt Orlando overpays Franz like Cleveland did with Garland. Franz will get around $26m a year, and Garland makes like $36m.
Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app
Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.
There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.
I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.
Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.
Franz wandered off and lost the confidence in his shot, but I still value him better than Garland no question. He is almost 7 feet with playmaking skills and ability to guard most player archetypes. We never got next Durant, because being 7 feet and such a great perimeter shooter and scorer is more unicorn than people might realize, but Franz has at least some of those qualities. I think he is taller than Jokic for example, but he has skillset of a guard. I put stocks on that over 6 foot PG who isnt even that crazy athletic or generational shooter. And I like Garland a ton, but you can find Garland with some luck, if Wagner pans out on the other hand....
Also, do we just write off Black? He was a rookie and showed interesting qualities. I know Orlando emerged into win now team fast, but man, their window will just start to be opened, I think they need to be very cautious with potential win now moves.
cgf wrote:UcanUwill wrote:cgf wrote:
Franz clearly has the cooler passport, but in a vaccuum I rate Garland more...he has had a terrible year, even worse than Franz's, but I really like his game / skillset.
There's the on ball stuff with his quickness, playmaking/floor general instincts, and his ability to drain pull-up 3s if teams go under on the PNR...but unlike a lot of sharpshooting PGs, Garland is very good off movement, so you can run him off screens like a Steph or Brunson...he's not just a stand-around to C&S offball guy like Mitchell or Dame.
I just think that both teams would be a lot more balanced after that swap...assuming DM will commit to Cleveland...and the fit would be great if you two traded from positions of strength to bolster each other's weaknesses.
Garland getting out from Mitchell's shadow would be great for him, he's a pretty perfect fit for you guys offensively and you can cover for his mediocre defense. While Cleveland could use Franz' size on the wing, and Mitchell operates in very different spaces than Paolo, so Franz should thrive too.
Franz wandered off and lost the confidence in his shot, but I still value him better than Garland no question. He is almost 7 feet with playmaking skills and ability to guard most player archetypes. We never got next Durant, because being 7 feet and such a great perimeter shooter and scorer is more unicorn than people might realize, but Franz has at least some of those qualities. I think he is taller than Jokic for example, but he has skillset of a guard. I put stocks on that over 6 foot PG who isnt even that crazy athletic or generational shooter. And I like Garland a ton, but you can find Garland with some luck, if Wagner pans out on the other hand....
Also, do we just write off Black? He was a rookie and showed interesting qualities. I know Orlando emerged into win now team fast, but man, their window will just start to be opened, I think they need to be very cautious with potential win now moves.
I guess I just don’t see a dramatically higher ceiling from Franz. I’m always rooting for other Germans, but even if his 3ball bounces back, I think that Garland bouncing back would have a greater offensive impact.
So to me they are both likely 3rd options with 2nd option potential. Franz the better slasher & defender, Garland the better playmaker & shooter. And both would help each other’s teams more than their current ones.