Nuggets chokejob

[Infinite Llamas]

Wolves should be embarrassed they were ever down 20 in the first place and lost 3 straight to them after being up 2-0.

Yes.

Wolves should the totally embarrassed for knocking off the NBA champions



Minnesota wins and people find a new way to hate

The level of excuses for the Nuggets is at an all time high in this thread.

Just take your L's and move on.

Take what L?

Denver isn’t my team lol.

[MagicMatic]

Everyone knows that now, but lets not act like the nuggets weren't favorites. Some folks here were acting like it was a forgone conclusion the nuggets would repeat. Asking who could beat the nuggets? Facts is they were up 3-2 in a series over a team that doesn't have a lot of playoff experience, they were up 20 at home. They had home court advantage and plus were defending champs. Not saying it's the worse ever, but the nuggets did choke. It happens.

Denver and Minnesota split the regular season 2-2. So no, it wasn't a forgone conclusion that they were unbeatable despite what uninformed people thought.

"Defending champs" means nothing if your roster and depth got significantly worse since last season. Wolves have more allstars, 6MotY, DPotY, etc. Nuggets have Jokic and sometimes Murray.

Are we now acting like a #2 losing to a #3 in 7 games is a massive choke job? No, its prisoner of the moment hyperbole. They merely lost to a better team. People are claiming otherwise because they have some kind of agenda against Jokic and its hilarious. If I were a Wolves fan I would be pissed that people cant just give them credit for being a talented team and that this series was just the Nuggets "choking".

People are giving Minnesota credit. But many posters on here denied adamantly, with great deals of smugness and emojis, that this same nuggets team faced a weak path last year, that didn't prove a ton except that they could beat that weak path. It was called a historic run, all time title, etc. and had many posters here comparing him to Lebron/MJ, some saying he was better. It's not an agenda, just a reaction to the premature annointing here for Jokic and Denver. Jokic supporters here crapped on Embiid for losing in the second round as an MVP last season, to Boston. We'll, now Jokic is in the same situation after winning his MVP. You cant have it both ways.

With all that, yeah people are talking crap about how they blew a 20 point second half lead, and lost to the first quality opponent they faced (unless you can name a good team they beat last year?). And rightfully so. Reality check for the Jokic crew, which is seemingly about 1/3 of the posters on this forum. His game has flaws, namely defense, being able to attack quickly on a consistent basis, rebounding out of his area, being able to dribble without turning his back to his defender. Alot of his game is catching the ball at the top of the key turned halfway away from the basket and waiting for cutters or DHOs to get his assists. He didn't show much ability to create something out of nothing offensively for a 3 time MVP.

The fact that you are breaking people into camps like "Jokic crew" is what makes takes like this dumb. So your argument is that you are letting 1/3 of this forum dictate your takes on team basketball based on their "smugness" despite what the regular season informed anyone of that was actually paying attention?

Congratulations you've proven my point that the only reason takes like this exist is because people feel the need to defend comparisons to challenging the validity of players like Lebron or MJ and that it has absolutely nothing to do with TEAM basketball at face value.

Jokic was the MVP for 3 seasons, possibly 4, and it bothers people so much its unreal. The better team won and people cant just accept that fact. They feel the need to pile on to a reality check for Denver that having a 3x MVP isnt enough to repeat against a deep well-built talented team.

[Johnny Firpo]

Most of his career during the postseason, his team plays better defense without him. He's objectively not a good or plus defender no matter how much you want it to be.

Based on what exactly? Your eye test?

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999&OnlyCommonGames=true
Playoffs team defRTG with Jokic on/off

24
113.4 - Jokic on
107.3 - Jokic off

23
112.1 - Jokic on
106.0 - Jokic off

22
125.7 - Jokic on
118.5 - Jokic off

21
125.5 - Jokic on
119.6 - Jokic off

20
119.1 - Jokic on
108.4 - Jokic off

19
109.6 - Jokic on
124.6 - Jokic off

Jokic has played in the PS for 6 years. In 5 of them, the team plays better defensively without him, in all cases by a significant amount. That's awful for a center, where your defense being poor affects the team far more than say someone that's a wing or on the perimeter. However because he is such a freak of nature offensively, be it scoring or being the best playmaking center in NBA history, he more than makes up for it as a total package.

He's so good offensively that most of the time it doesn't matter.

Sorry, but this is totally dumb, for a variety of reasons. Others have pointed out the main one (sample size), but there are others. Last year and this year, Gordon was the backup center. Second reason, opposing coaches regularly take off their best offensive guys around the same time as Jokic, because they understand that the Nuggets will not run away with the game, and they can give valuable rest to their best players. Another addition on sample size, you are talking about 8-9 minutes here, as opposed to the regular season sample, some of which, or sometime all of which, are garbage time. Now on top of that, the Facu/Rivers samples are totally useless for obvious reasons.

[Johnny Firpo]

Jokic supporters here crapped on Embiid for losing in the second round as an MVP last season, to Boston. We'll, now Jokic is in the same situation after winning his MVP. You cant have it both ways.

Yeah, because how they actually played in their respective series', shouldn't matter right, just the end result? It doesn't matter that Embiid was terrible last year, and Jokic was good to great this year, it's the same? You are such a simpleton homer, who is blinded by their dislike to a player.

[Impuniti]

Based on what exactly? Your eye test?

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999&OnlyCommonGames=true
Playoffs team defRTG with Jokic on/off

24
113.4 - Jokic on
107.3 - Jokic off

23
112.1 - Jokic on
106.0 - Jokic off

22
125.7 - Jokic on
118.5 - Jokic off

21
125.5 - Jokic on
119.6 - Jokic off

20
119.1 - Jokic on
108.4 - Jokic off

19
109.6 - Jokic on
124.6 - Jokic off

Jokic has played in the PS for 6 years. In 5 of them, the team plays better defensively without him, in all cases by a significant amount. That's awful for a center, where your defense being poor affects the team far more than say someone that's a wing or on the perimeter. However because he is such a freak of nature offensively, be it scoring or being the best playmaking center in NBA history, he more than makes up for it as a total package.

He's so good offensively that most of the time it doesn't matter.

Sorry, but this is totally dumb, for a variety of reasons. Others have pointed out the main one (sample size), but there are others. Last year and this year, Gordon was the backup center. Second reason, opposing coaches regularly take off their best offensive guys around the same time as Jokic, because they understand that the Nuggets will not run away with the game, and they can give valuable rest to their best players. Another addition on sample size, you are talking about 8-9 minutes here, as opposed to the regular season sample, some of which, or sometime all of which, are garbage time. Now on top of that, the Facu/Rivers samples are totally useless for obvious reasons.

This "small sample size" oddly enough seems to have the opposite effect when you look at elite defensive centers in the playoffs like Embiid and Rudy for most seasons.

I haven't seen this level or mental gymnastics in quite a long time. Believe whatever nonsensical narrative you want.

[KodiakBear]

Jokic supporters here crapped on Embiid for losing in the second round as an MVP last season, to Boston. We'll, now Jokic is in the same situation after winning his MVP. You cant have it both ways.

Yeah, because how they actually played in their respective series', shouldn't matter right, just the end result? It doesn't matter that Embiid was terrible last year, and Jokic was good to great this year, it's the same? You are such a simpleton homer, who is blinded by their dislike to a player.

And one has a championship and one hasn't made it out of the second round.

[Jailblazers7]

Definitely not a historic choke job but definitely a black mark on his resume. It’s a bad combination when you lose 3 homes games (incl game 7), get blown out in game 6, and you blow a 20 point lead in game 7.

Game 7 is the worst part to me because Jokic is supposed to be the offensive maestro but instead settled for a bunch of 3s down the stretch & went 2-10. These are the type of performances that could make the difference between him being ranked top 5 all time vs top 15 all time when his career is done.

[Johnny Firpo]

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999&OnlyCommonGames=true
Playoffs team defRTG with Jokic on/off

24
113.4 - Jokic on
107.3 - Jokic off

23
112.1 - Jokic on
106.0 - Jokic off

22
125.7 - Jokic on
118.5 - Jokic off

21
125.5 - Jokic on
119.6 - Jokic off

20
119.1 - Jokic on
108.4 - Jokic off

19
109.6 - Jokic on
124.6 - Jokic off

Jokic has played in the PS for 6 years. In 5 of them, the team plays better defensively without him, in all cases by a significant amount. That's awful for a center, where your defense being poor affects the team far more than say someone that's a wing or on the perimeter. However because he is such a freak of nature offensively, be it scoring or being the best playmaking center in NBA history, he more than makes up for it as a total package.

He's so good offensively that most of the time it doesn't matter.

Sorry, but this is totally dumb, for a variety of reasons. Others have pointed out the main one (sample size), but there are others. Last year and this year, Gordon was the backup center. Second reason, opposing coaches regularly take off their best offensive guys around the same time as Jokic, because they understand that the Nuggets will not run away with the game, and they can give valuable rest to their best players. Another addition on sample size, you are talking about 8-9 minutes here, as opposed to the regular season sample, some of which, or sometime all of which, are garbage time. Now on top of that, the Facu/Rivers samples are totally useless for obvious reasons.

This "small sample size" oddly enough seems to have the opposite effect when you look at elite defensive centers in the playoffs like Embiid and Rudy for most seasons.

I haven't seen this level or mental gymnastics in quite a long time. Believe whatever nonsensical narrative you want.

First of all, they are obviously better defenders than Jokic, no one ever said otherwise. Second, all context matters separately, and you have to view it separately. For Gobert, for years they built a defensive system around him as the really only good defender in Salt Lake. No crap that falls apart when he sits. But anyway, saying "look at these two examples" as argument for people stating that the sample size and the roster context is much more complicated, is just dumb, sorry, and definitely bigger mental gymnastics than point out the nuances and giving it context.

[hardenASG13]

Jokic supporters here crapped on Embiid for losing in the second round as an MVP last season, to Boston. We'll, now Jokic is in the same situation after winning his MVP. You cant have it both ways.

Yeah, because how they actually played in their respective series', shouldn't matter right, just the end result? It doesn't matter that Embiid was terrible last year, and Jokic was good to great this year, it's the same? You are such a simpleton homer, who is blinded by their dislike to a player.

I'm not an embiid fan. Don't resort to name calling, it basically lets people know you're not worth engaging with, it's very elementary. Does it matter if embiid was clearly injured when he was "terrible" last year, or should that be conveniently ignored?

[hardenASG13]

Jokic supporters here crapped on Embiid for losing in the second round as an MVP last season, to Boston. We'll, now Jokic is in the same situation after winning his MVP. You cant have it both ways.

Yeah, because how they actually played in their respective series', shouldn't matter right, just the end result? It doesn't matter that Embiid was terrible last year, and Jokic was good to great this year, it's the same? You are such a simpleton homer, who is blinded by their dislike to a player.

And one has a championship and one hasn't made it out of the second round.

And yet, I feel like that doesn't matter for who wins MVP of the regular season, and never has. Jokic won a few before winning a title too, as hav see many other players. It's a double standard to rip one and not other after their second round exits.

[Johnny Firpo]

Definitely not a historic choke job but definitely a black mark on his resume. It’s a bad combination when you lose 3 homes games (incl game 7), get blown out in game 6, and you blow a 20 point lead in game 7.

Game 7 is the worst part to me because Jokic is supposed to be the offensive maestro but instead settled for a bunch of 3s down the stretch & went 2-10. These are the type of performances that could make the difference between him being ranked top 5 all time vs top 15 all time when his career is done.

That's actually a very measured, and realistic, and I even say, most correct opinion, and coming from a Sixers fan, so kudos. It's exactly how it was, it's not a choke from Joker, but he could have done better. He can get a certain percentage of the blame, but when it was a 7 game series, and his 2nd and 3rd options both scored below 50% TS, let's not put most of the blame on the guy, right? He deserves some, by his own incredibly high standards he played a good, but not great series.

[Johnny Firpo]

Yeah, because how they actually played in their respective series', shouldn't matter right, just the end result? It doesn't matter that Embiid was terrible last year, and Jokic was good to great this year, it's the same? You are such a simpleton homer, who is blinded by their dislike to a player.

And one has a championship and one hasn't made it out of the second round.

And yet, I feel like that doesn't matter for who wins MVP of the regular season, and never has. Jokic won a few before winning a title too, as hav see many other players. It's a double standard to rip one and not other after their second round exits.

If it wouldn't matter at all, Jokic probably goes four straight. So in the end, it benefited Embiid that it does matter, even though it shouldn't.

[JayMKE]

Chokejob is a harsh term and Denver was the defending champs so I think Minnesota probably deserves more credit for coming back in epic fashion than Denver blowing it, Minnesota was a better team. The only people with egg on their face are the Jokic cultists who think he's literally the GOAT and should be impervious to criticism.

[Johnny Firpo]

Jokic supporters here crapped on Embiid for losing in the second round as an MVP last season, to Boston. We'll, now Jokic is in the same situation after winning his MVP. You cant have it both ways.

Yeah, because how they actually played in their respective series', shouldn't matter right, just the end result? It doesn't matter that Embiid was terrible last year, and Jokic was good to great this year, it's the same? You are such a simpleton homer, who is blinded by their dislike to a player.

I'm not an embiid fan. Don't resort to name calling, it basically lets people know you're not worth engaging with, it's very elementary. Does it matter if embiid was clearly injured when he was "terrible" last year, or should that be conveniently ignored?

Embiid is always injured though, so we really don't have any other choice, but to use those games for comparisons, or we shouldn't compare him to anyone, really, which I would actually support, because he is a unique case for sure.

[ConSarnit]

Live by the sword die by the sword. Offense first teams suffer more variability than defense first teams. There is a reason that most title teams are elite defensive teams. No matter how good you are sometimes offense runs dry.

[hardenASG13]

Yeah, because how they actually played in their respective series', shouldn't matter right, just the end result? It doesn't matter that Embiid was terrible last year, and Jokic was good to great this year, it's the same? You are such a simpleton homer, who is blinded by their dislike to a player.

I'm not an embiid fan. Don't resort to name calling, it basically lets people know you're not worth engaging with, it's very elementary. Does it matter if embiid was clearly injured when he was "terrible" last year, or should that be conveniently ignored?

Embiid is always injured though, so we really don't have any other choice, but to use those games for comparisons, or we shouldn't compare him to anyone, really, which I would actually support, because he is a unique case for sure.

Yeah, pretty much. I'm just making the point that many here who are coming to Jokics defense and saying not to criticize him for blowing a 20 point second half lead at home (he was very quiet during the comeback in the 3rd), and losing to the first quality team they faced would've been killing Embiid for same thing. He was crapped on all off season last year for losing injured (like he always is) in the second round. Jokic is rightfully getting slammed on here for his failures as well. Many on this board repeatedly mocked any poster who questioned their title path last year, and now they lost to the first good team they faced in the second round in embarrassing fashion.

To say it wasn't a chokejob is flat out denial. They were up 3-2 vs. a team who had never advanced out of the first round prior to this year. Lost game 6 by 45. Lost game 7 at home blowing a 20 point second half lead. 97% of the teams this season with a 20 point lead in the second half won the game! If this wasn't a chokejob I'm not sure what is.

[Johnny Firpo]

I'm not an embiid fan. Don't resort to name calling, it basically lets people know you're not worth engaging with, it's very elementary. Does it matter if embiid was clearly injured when he was "terrible" last year, or should that be conveniently ignored?

Embiid is always injured though, so we really don't have any other choice, but to use those games for comparisons, or we shouldn't compare him to anyone, really, which I would actually support, because he is a unique case for sure.

Yeah, pretty much. I'm just making the point that many here who are coming to Jokics defense and saying not to criticize him for blowing a 20 point second half lead at home (he was very quiet during the comeback in the 3rd), and losing to the first quality team they faced would've been killing Embiid for same thing. He was crapped on all off season last year for losing injured (like he always is) in the second round. Jokic is rightfully getting slammed on here for his failures as well. Many on this board repeatedly mocked any poster who questioned their title path last year, and now they lost to the first good team they faced in the second round in embarrassing fashion.

To say it wasn't a chokejob is flat out denial. They were up 3-2 vs. a team who had never advanced out of the first round prior to this year. Lost game 6 by 45. Lost game 7 at home blowing a 20 point second half lead. 97% of the teams this season with a 20 point lead in the second half won the game! If this wasn't a chokejob I'm not sure what is.

I agree, it was definitely a choke job, and I would even say that Jokic deserves some of the blame, because he had a good, but by his own standards, not great series. But his teammates should definitely take on the vast majority of the blame, IMO (and of course the Wolves has to be given a lot of credit too).

[BelgradeNugget]

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999&OnlyCommonGames=true
Playoffs team defRTG with Jokic on/off

24
113.4 - Jokic on
107.3 - Jokic off

23
112.1 - Jokic on
106.0 - Jokic off

22
125.7 - Jokic on
118.5 - Jokic off

21
125.5 - Jokic on
119.6 - Jokic off

20
119.1 - Jokic on
108.4 - Jokic off

19
109.6 - Jokic on
124.6 - Jokic off

Jokic has played in the PS for 6 years. In 5 of them, the team plays better defensively without him, in all cases by a significant amount. That's awful for a center, where your defense being poor affects the team far more than say someone that's a wing or on the perimeter. However because he is such a freak of nature offensively, be it scoring or being the best playmaking center in NBA history, he more than makes up for it as a total package.

He's so good offensively that most of the time it doesn't matter.

Just one thing to take into account with this stats. Jokic's overall on/off in the last two regular seasons were historic. Why?

1. He is the best player that ever walk the earth
2. He is great and his backups in the regular season are among the worst players in the NBA

Well, 2nd is the right answer.

Playoffs team defRTG with Jokic on/off

24
113.4 - Jokic on
107.3 - Jokic off

23
112.1 - Jokic on
106.0 - Jokic off

This means in 2024 playoffs Nuggets had 8th bast defense of 16 teams with Jokic on the court or as good as AD's Lakers. Should I say playoffs average. Thay had 4th best defense with him off right in front of Gobert/McDaniels/Ant/NAW Twolves.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?Outcome=&sort=DEF_RATING

In 2023 playoffs Nuggets again had 8th bast defense of 16 teams with Jokic on the court or as good as Embiid's 76ers. Should I say
playoffs average again. With him off they had the best defense in NBA, better than 1st ranked Cleveland Cavaliers.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?Outcome=&sort=DEF_RATING&Season=2022-23

How is this possible? Simple. In the last two years in playoffs his backup at C is Aaron Gordon, one of the 3 best small ball-centers in the league with Green and Bam. In regular season it's Nnaji/DeAndre Jordan

Conclusion: if your backup is Nnaji/DeAndre Jordan you may look as GOAT by +/-. If your backup is Aaron Gordon you may look as bad, bad, bad defender. So how is his defense affecting his team? Overall, with him playing 40 + minutes last year they had 4th best defense in the playoffs. This year 7th. No one ever said he is Gobert on D but if Nuggets defense with him on the court is average or better than average, against the best teams, "That is not awful for a center, where your defense being poor affects the team".
This only means he is not bad on defense, but above average to good defender. He simply is not AG.

[TinmanZBoy]

https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612743&Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Playoffs&PlayerIds=203999&OnlyCommonGames=true
Playoffs team defRTG with Jokic on/off

24
113.4 - Jokic on
107.3 - Jokic off

23
112.1 - Jokic on
106.0 - Jokic off

22
125.7 - Jokic on
118.5 - Jokic off

21
125.5 - Jokic on
119.6 - Jokic off

20
119.1 - Jokic on
108.4 - Jokic off

19
109.6 - Jokic on
124.6 - Jokic off

Jokic has played in the PS for 6 years. In 5 of them, the team plays better defensively without him, in all cases by a significant amount. That's awful for a center, where your defense being poor affects the team far more than say someone that's a wing or on the perimeter. However because he is such a freak of nature offensively, be it scoring or being the best playmaking center in NBA history, he more than makes up for it as a total package.

He's so good offensively that most of the time it doesn't matter.

Just one thing to take into account with this stats. Jokic's overall on/off in the last two regular seasons were historic. Why?

1. He is the best player that ever walk the earth
2. He is great and his backups in the regular season are among the worst players in the NBA

Well, 2nd is the right answer.

Playoffs team defRTG with Jokic on/off

24
113.4 - Jokic on
107.3 - Jokic off

23
112.1 - Jokic on
106.0 - Jokic off

This means in 2024 playoffs Nuggets had 8th bast defense of 16 teams with Jokic on the court or as good as AD's Lakers. Should I say playoffs average. Thay had 4th best defense with him off right in front of Gobert/McDaniels/Ant/NAW Twolves.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?Outcome=&sort=DEF_RATING

In 2023 playoffs Nuggets again had 8th bast defense of 16 teams with Jokic on the court or as good as Embiid's 76ers. Should I say
playoffs average again. With him off they had the best defense in NBA, better than 1st ranked Cleveland Cavaliers.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced?Outcome=&sort=DEF_RATING&Season=2022-23

How is this possible? Simple. In the last two years in playoffs his backup at C is Aaron Gordon, one of the 3 best small ball-centers in the league with Green and Bam. In regular season it's Nnaji/DeAndre Jordan

Conclusion: if your backup is Nnaji/DeAndre Jordan you may look as GOAT by +/-. If your backup is Aaron Gordon you may look as bad, bad, bad defender. So how is his defense affecting his team? Overall, with him playing 40 + minutes last year they had 4th best defense in the playoffs. This year 7th. No one ever said he is Gobert on D but if Nuggets defense with him on the court is average or better than average, against the best teams, "That is not awful for a center, where your defense being poor affects the team".
This only means he is not bad on defense, but above average to good defender. He simply is not AG.

man, I don't even remeber if Joker was off the court ... he has been playing 40+ minutes per game... and saying Denver has a better defese when he is off the court just does not any meaningful sense

[Optms]

Chokejob is a harsh term and Denver was the defending champs so I think Minnesota probably deserves more credit for coming back in epic fashion than Denver blowing it, Minnesota was a better team. The only people with egg on their face are the Jokic cultists who think he's literally the GOAT and should be impervious to criticism.

Unfortunely, we still have to hear how he's the GOAT.