Jump into the Poole Party: The Official Jordan Poole Thread

[nate33]

I apologize if I have posted this in this thread already.

What I really want to see is how Poole reacts to being a PG. If he can develop that skill set to the degree that CJ McCollum has in New Orleans, it makes him more valuable. Of course that would mean staggering him with Tyus because Tyus doesn't really have the off ball skillset that even Monte Morris did (Delon can play off ball if we keep him so we can still do the JP at PG experiment).

Yeah, I've mentioned this before as well. Things make a lot more sense if Poole plays the PG minutes while Jones rests. It will help Poole from a developmental perspective, and it frees up minutes for our young wings (Kispert, Coulibaly, Davis) to get more minutes at SG. Poole can start, go to the bench early (with Kispert replacing him) and then run PG for the 2nd unit when Jones comes out.

I'd probably have Avdija mimic Poole's rotation so that he is always on the floor to serve as a co-point guard to help take the load off of Poole. So basically, Poole and Avdija come out early (replaced by Kispert and Coulibaly) and then they both come in to play with the bench unit (replacing Jones and Kuzma).

[payitforward]

Fantastic work, nate!
Even w/o pushing up that .585 TS% he'd be better than Beal his 4th year in the league, when his TS% was .547 -- on a lot lower usage than those 1371 minutes by JP.

Add in his extremely solid prior season, & there's a lot to look forward to!

To be fair to Beal, it was harder to score back then. Beal's TS% in his 4th season was about 1% above league average. Poole's TS% is right at league average. And Beal also had a considerably lower turnover rate. Overall, I'd say 4th year Beal was still a bit better than 4th year Poole.

On the other hand, 5th year Beal went on to get a max contract worth 24% of the cap. Poole is making 20% of the cap. Relatively speaking, Poole may pan out to be equivalent, or even a bargain. He is almost certainly a bargain relative to current Beal who will be paid 34.3% of the cap. And that's without assuming any improvement for Poole over time, or decline from Beal.

My mistake was more simple-minded than that, nate.
There is no reason to compare Poole to 4th-year Beal. Jordan is entering his 5th season.

[FAH1223]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

7:41 mark, Camron and Mase talk about Poole.

They also talk about the Wizards doing well with the Porzingis and Beal trades.

Watch on YouTube

[badinage]

(Ugh, this “It Is What It Is” clip. Why? Why did I even watch? Even just the two minutes that I did — why? And these aren’t even former players. Former players, sure, curse a little, I can live with a little of that. Sprinkle some vulgarity in your speech — fine. But these’re just ordinary dudes. And the kicker — the suits! Dressed to the nines, but spewing **** …)

[FAH1223]

(Ugh, this “It Is What It Is” clip. Why? Why did I even watch? Even just the two minutes that I did — why? And these aren’t even former players. Former players, sure, curse a little, I can live with a little of that. Sprinkle some vulgarity in your speech — fine. But these’re just ordinary dudes. And the kicker — the suits! Dressed to the nines, but spewing **** …)

They’re rappers so it’s par for the course.

But Cam’ron does have sources around the NBA. It’s not that wild.

Here they are talking about the Porzingis trade

Read on Twitter

[AFM]

camron and mase lol thats tight, I'm gonna watch this later

[TGW]

It's genious actually to get Cam'ron and Mase...people are going to tune in because it's them, but they're going to stick around because they actually do know what their talking about a little bit.

[nate33]

I actually took a good look at Jordan Poole's numbers and was surprised to see how good of a scorer he was when he didn't share the floor with Curry.

In the 1371 minutes that he didn't share the court with Curry last year, Poole averaged 28 points, 6.1 assists, 3.1 rebounds and 3.9 turnovers per 36 minutes on a TS% of .585. That's basically Bradley Beal type numbers, with worse rebounding. He also just turned 24 so maybe he's got a little improvement left in him. He surely has a chip on his shoulder and a desire to prove people wrong. And he is well known as a hard worker who has gotten to where he is through an insane work ethic

Let's say, for argument's sake, that he boosts his TS% by 1% while maintaining the exact same usage he had last year without Curry on the floor, but does so for 36 minutes a game. That would mean he would average 28.5 points per game on a TS% of .595. That's pretty frickin' good!

FWIW, he put almost exactly the same numbers two years ago in the minutes that Curry was out.

In 1300 minutes, he averaged 24.9 points on a TS% of .587, with 5.8 assists and 3.6 turnovers (per 36). And in that season, he started 51 games. (He started 43 games in 2022-23.)

So basically, we have 2671 minutes of proof with Poole as a first option scorer against starting level competition, that he is capable of posting roughly 25-28 points per game on league average efficiency at a ripe old age of 22 and 23.

It really doesn't look like offense will be the problem. My question is, can he play better defense? He was notoriously awful defensively in Golden State, and that's on a team that really cares about defense. But maybe Golden State was spoiled by having so many naturally good defenders (Draymond, Looney, Klay, GPII, Iggy) that they've gotten lousy at teaching defense. Kuminga, Moody and Wiseman haven't made a lot of progress. Is it possible that our coaches and trainers can do a better job with Poole on defensive fundamentals?

[Tyrone Messby]

Poole is going to have better numbers/production than Beal here and he's younger. I'm sort of sad we brought Kuzma back. I legitimately believe Poole could've averaged 30+ ppg.

[J-Ves]

Kind of crazy how the new FO found a younger, cheaper, more durable version of Beal and they got him for basically nothing. I’m surprised that Poole’s trade value was viewed the way that it was when I wouldn’t even say he had that much of a down year. I mean high usage, high efficiency guards that also create for others is one of those player profiles that teams are generally fond of

[Silvie Lysandra]

Kind of crazy how the new FO found a younger, cheaper, more durable version of Beal and they got him for basically nothing. I’m surprised that Poole’s trade value was viewed the way that it was when I wouldn’t even say he had that much of a down year. I mean high usage, high efficiency guards that also create for others is one of those player profiles that teams are generally fond of

Because the Warriors are hard committing to running it back with Draymond, so Poole had to be gone at all costs. They actually GAVE us assets for this which is insane. And Poole acquired a bad rep because of the decline in his play due to the environment.

Honestly, we got a ridiculous haul for Beal at the end of the day, even without considering the overall context. Dp not sleep on those 2028 and 2030 pick swaps either. Beal is coasting on rep at this point, he's quite possibly worse than 2022 Poole already, he's also already not healthy, and this is only going to get worse over the next 4 years. Does anyone really think that Durant is going to be an all-NBA or even all-star level player at 39? And that team is capped out and low on 1st rounders. They have a bunch of 2nds now, which gain value as drafts get deeper, but they have to hit on them.

Also we kept Kuzma for the sake of the tank I feel like, as well as having a tradable asset down the road. Kuzma as 1st or 2nd option will shoot you out of winnable games, but Kuzma as a microwave bench scorer off the 2nd unit that is also long, quick and switchable is a championship level role player.

[TGW]

Poole has a lot of work to become nearly as good as Beal is. Honestly it’s not even close…Beal is a vastly superior player. I’m not a fan of Beal but that’s not a valid comparison at this point. Maybe compare Beal to Poole at the same age…that might be closer.

[Silvie Lysandra]

Poole has a lot of work to become nearly as good as Beal is. Honestly it’s not even close…Beal is a vastly superior player. I’m not a fan of Beal but that’s not a valid comparison at this point. Maybe compare Beal to Poole at the same age…that might be closer.

It depends if last year's Poole is your baseline. That guy is definitely as good as the Bradley Beal we've gotten the past 2 years.

[TGW]

Poole has a lot of work to become nearly as good as Beal is. Honestly it’s not even close…Beal is a vastly superior player. I’m not a fan of Beal but that’s not a valid comparison at this point. Maybe compare Beal to Poole at the same age…that might be closer.

It depends if last year's Poole is your baseline. That guy is definitely as good as the Bradley Beal we've gotten the past 2 years.

No sir, that's not true. They are comparable on the defensive end last year...but offensively, it's not close.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=forall&year_min=2023&year_max=2023&player_id1=poolejo01&player_id2=bealbr01

At the same age:
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=bealbr01&p1yrfrom=2017&p1yrto=2017&player_id2=poolejo01&p2yrfrom=2023&p2yrto=2023

Not even remotely close. Beal is head and shoulders better than Poole whether it's last year, the year before, or at the same age.

[Wizardspride]

Poole is going to have better numbers/production than Beal here and he's younger. I'm sort of sad we brought Kuzma back. I legitimately believe Poole could've averaged 30+ ppg.

Even with Kuzma being on the roster, I still think he can average close to 30.

[nate33]

Poole has a lot of work to become nearly as good as Beal is. Honestly it’s not even close…Beal is a vastly superior player. I’m not a fan of Beal but that’s not a valid comparison at this point. Maybe compare Beal to Poole at the same age…that might be closer.

It depends if last year's Poole is your baseline. That guy is definitely as good as the Bradley Beal we've gotten the past 2 years.

No sir, that's not true. They are comparable on the defensive end last year...but offensively, it's not close.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=forall&year_min=2023&year_max=2023&player_id1=poolejo01&player_id2=bealbr01

At the same age:
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=bealbr01&p1yrfrom=2017&p1yrto=2017&player_id2=poolejo01&p2yrfrom=2023&p2yrto=2023

Not even remotely close. Beal is head and shoulders better than Poole whether it's last year, the year before, or at the same age.

Yes, those stats over the entire season do indeed demonstrate that Beal was better than Poole. But what's interesting is that the numbers I posted showing Poole's production when not alongside Curry suggests that Poole is better as a primary option than as a second fiddle. His usage goes up and his efficiency goes up. Poole without Curry has numbers almost identical to Beal.

Some of that is presumably due to Poole tearing up 2nd units, but some of that also took place when Poole was a starter and Curry was hurt.

[doclinkin]

Not even remotely close. Beal is head and shoulders better than Poole whether it's last year, the year before, or at the same age.

Considering that last year had unusual circumstances, where everybody remarked that Poole was checked out and not the same player after the punch, it seems more fair to compare them at age 22, where Poole earned his max contract, and Beal did as well.

In that respect check the numbers again.

There the edge goes to Poole. Almost identical numbers per 100, with Poole having a slight edge in almost every category, except 3's where the John Wall effect helped Beal to his career best years. (Underscored by the fact that his 3FG%'s were at their highest in his younger years, and dropped off when Wall got injured).

Poole made up the difference by hitting 90+% from the FT line and 55% from 2. I won't count the additional assists in Poole's record since playing next to Curry or Klay is a cheat code. And no doubt playing with 2 HOF shooters gave him more space.

Sure maybe last year defined Poole's new normal. But consider the thought experiment though: Would Beal have performed well if he were knocked out by Nene/Markieff Morris in training camp, then critiqued all year by Wall and Gortat while Randy Whitman backed the offender and forced him to play the same line? Seems to me yeah we would have had chemistry issues then too.

Recall we used to get pissed at Beal for his body language when he got a bad whistle by the refs. He would check out for multiple possessions. If he was getting yelled at on the bench by Wall following a high profile and embarrassing public incident, I expect you would have gotten less commitment and production out of him that age 23 year.

Oh and you know. Poole earned a championship that year as well. If you want a better comparison with Beal, check their career playoffs numbers. Again, nearly identical, despite Poole's poor showing this year.

[payitforward]

FWIW, he put almost exactly the same numbers two years ago in the minutes that Curry was out.

In 1300 minutes, he averaged 24.9 points on a TS% of .587, with 5.8 assists and 3.6 turnovers (per 36)....

In fact, his TS% was .598 on the season in '21-22.
Average TS% for a shooting guard that year was .552.

Plus Poole posted that number on @22% higher than average usage.

[doclinkin]

Also we kept Kuzma for the sake of the tank I feel like, as well as having a tradable asset down the road. Kuzma as 1st or 2nd option will shoot you out of winnable games, but Kuzma as a microwave bench scorer off the 2nd unit that is also long, quick and switchable is a championship level role player.

I mentioned it in another thread, but, given that Kuzma's poor numbers seems to be from crappy shot selection and too many turnovers. I expect he may benefit by playing along side a solid set-up man in Tyus Stones.

Morris is a solid efficiency stand out, but that seems to come from a level of passivity, never forcing the action, taking the shot that is open to him. Morris/Jones' numbers are similar, but if you watch them play Jones is more of a set-up man, playing as a primary ball handler and putting his teammates in position to score, where Morris has played off-ball working with a ball-dominant Big for most of his career.

Given that Jones has led the league in AST/TO ratio for the past 5 years, seems to me the team would be served well by letting him direct the action as the primary initiator. In this way he can iron out the rough patches in the games of both Kuzma and Poole. Monte is a nice guy, but you never got the sense he would assert his will on the team, where Jones seems to have an on court presence that players respect and react well to.

Poole will get a chance to floor the accelerator when Jones rests. We benefit by the ability to sub in a high level defender like Wright to help patch the defense when JP is running the show. But next to Jones Poole can be a dangerous weapon by running off ball action and forcing defenses to chase him past screens to pop him free for the 3 or to curl to the lane. Then he can do his best Curry/Klay imitation and show that he deserved that spot. Make the W's regret picking Green over him.

I want Deni and Kuz both to get stronger and learn to set tougher picks and screens. Shoot maybe we can get Gortat back on the bench this year to tutor them as well as Gafford. Or else I want to recruit a tough screening/defending big. Deni is a nice guy, but maybe as he develops veteran status he will begin to assert himself and play, you know, less nice. He has the skill set to make that work, just not the intimidation factor or I guess physical toughness.

[payitforward]

Poole has a lot of work to become nearly as good as Beal is. Honestly it’s not even close…Beal is a vastly superior player. I’m not a fan of Beal but that’s not a valid comparison at this point. Maybe compare Beal to Poole at the same age…that might be closer.

It depends if last year's Poole is your baseline. That guy is definitely as good as the Bradley Beal we've gotten the past 2 years.

No sir, that's not true. They are comparable on the defensive end last year...but offensively, it's not close.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=forall&year_min=2023&year_max=2023&player_id1=poolejo01&player_id2=bealbr01

At the same age:
https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=bealbr01&p1yrfrom=2017&p1yrto=2017&player_id2=poolejo01&p2yrfrom=2023&p2yrto=2023

Not even remotely close. Beal is head and shoulders better than Poole whether it's last year, the year before, or at the same age.

Try that same comparison using '21-22 for Poole (his 3d year in the league) & Beal's 3d or 4th year. The result will look completely different.