Bargnani discussion

[jaymeister15]

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Exactly, so Durant could suck too? He's shown flashes, bad rebounder, bad defender, high volume scorer. So Durant will be nothing in the future?

could be. But, the fact is, that as a rookie guard, who is creating his own offense on a bad team, he is still shooting a higher percentage than a second year centre who gets most of his looks off of other players creating.

not to mention he's averaging more RPG than Bargs (albeit in more minutes)

[Shaazzam]

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But thats the thing, is that something you can expect on a gamely basis? Did we draft Bargnani to be a spot up shooter or a player that can mix it up.

Would you call Dirk or Okur shooters? NO.

IIRC that's exactly what they were called in their second seasons.

[tsherkin]

So far, Bargnani's career has almost mirrored Clifford Robinson's. Both crappy rebounders, both jump shooters, both started out in a mediocre fashion. Uncle Cliffy blew up in his 4th season, and was a pretty good player.

If Bargnani can do the same, I'd be ecstatic with 20 ppg / 5 rpg.

Clifford Robinson was a really good man-on defender and a lot better at boxing out than Bargnani; like Rasheed Wallace, this latter reason was the cause of his poor rebounding, not Bargs' disinterest in chasing down the basketball. He also had a broader offensive repertoire and is generally a bad example.

And I'm completely ceding that he coudl suck for the rest of his career. That's a distinct possibility.

Again, I don't think that's very likely because at worst, he does have a specialist skill that can be exploited, I just don't see him being an elite scorer and everyone drooling over his potential seems to be missing how little he's really evidenced in that department and looking at the raw points-scored numbers he's posted over the last ten games without really looking at how he got them.

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Exactly, so Durant could suck too? He's shown flashes, bad rebounder, bad defender, high volume scorer. So Durant will be nothing in the future?

Durant is 4 years younger than Bargnani and a rookie. He's got horrible shot selection and seems to forget about any defender that's not right on him, both of which are correctable issues. He has handles and has shown some post game. He is playing the 2, so his rebounding woes are overstated and he's also lacking significantly in physical development.

The two situations are not really all that similar, although I am indeed inclined to be unimpressed by Durant thus far.

[ludachris]

Okay guys, i think now that bargnani's brother (Primo) is finally in a raptors uni Bargs will come out of his shell. He will now have the confidence to play full out. jokes.... but seriously does anybody else see the similarities. i mean they look soo much alike (their lower jaw). both 7 footers both born in Italy. well Brezec was born in Slovenia but the city he was born in is on the border of italy. plus he speaks and understands fluent italian. they are infact long lost brothers that after years apart will finally be re-united.

The Nba, where amazing happens!!!!!(the Maury Povich special edition)

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti ... 50350/1051

[Duffman100]

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Durant is 4 years younger than Bargnani and a rookie. He's got horrible shot selection and seems to forget about any defender that's not right on him, both of which are correctable issues. He has handles and has shown some post game. He is playing the 2, so his rebounding woes are overstated and he's also lacking significantly in physical development.

The two situations are not really all that similar, although I am indeed inclined to be unimpressed by Durant thus far.

Bargs is still only 22, hasn't been facing the competition Durants been facing, only in his 2nd year, and doesn't have the luxury of having the ball in his hands every play. It's a lot harder to get into the flow.

Durant also plays 2 cause he's physically incapable of guarding 3s and 4s. Bargnani suffers from weakness too.

I'd say the situations are fairly similar, except Bargnani doesn't have the same shot attempts.

[CreaM]

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Exactly, so Durant could suck too? He's shown flashes, bad rebounder, bad defender, high volume scorer. So Durant will be nothing in the future?

Firstly, Durant is 6'10 Playing the shooting guard position.
Secondly, this is his first season.
Third, He gets all the attention focused towards him because his teammates are not capable.
Fourth, He is 19 years of age, Bargs is 22.
Fifth, Durant has already proven that his is capable, having multiple 30/20 games at the college level albeit the NBA is a different league.
Sixth- Durant is averaging 20ppg getting all that attention focused on him.
Seventh- Nobody is saying Durant is having a great season, he has been criticized several times by the likes of Charles Barkley, Kenny Smith, e.t.c.

[Duffman100]

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could be. But, the fact is, that as a rookie guard, who is creating his own offense on a bad team, he is still shooting a higher percentage than a second year centre who gets most of his looks off of other players creating.

not to mention he's averaging more RPG than Bargs (albeit in more minutes)

Once again, Durant has the luxury of having the entire offense based around him and has the ball in his hands all the time.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Exactly, so Durant could suck too? He's shown flashes, bad rebounder, bad defender, high volume scorer. So Durant will be nothing in the future?

(a) Durant has shown more than flashes. He's averaging almost twice as many PPG as Andrea and while his percentages are low it isn't like Andrea's are higher.

(b) Durant is a comparable rebounder to Andrea despite playing a lot of SG this season while Andrea has been a C. You can tell by watching both players who has the better rebounding instincts.

(c) Durant, while definitely having his problems on defense, actually seems to have a slightly better understanding of how to play team defense. Andrea is better at playing stump on bigs but that's about it.

(d) Durant is 3 years younger than Andrea.

(e) It's still possible (although not likely, imo) that Durant never makes the jump to outright stardom. After those first four points, can you not see why Bargnani is making his share of critics?

(f) Durant definitely has his share of critics. He's been compared quite a bit to Adam Morrison of late despite having a much better rookie season that compares a lot better statistically to Carmelo Anthony's rookie season than Morrison's.

As an aside, I'm always a little baffled when people suggest that Bargnani isn't strong enough to play a more varied offensive game besides hanging out at the 3-point line and either shooting or driving. Bosh was way skinnier than him in his rookie season and he managed far better. And Andrea's supposed weakness doesn't hurt him nearly so much on the defensive end. Andrea could definitely stand to get stronger and that will help his game, but it isn't what is holding him back right now. Not by a long shot.

[CreaM]

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IIRC that's exactly what they were called in their second seasons.

Dirk was more than a shooter in his second season. That is why his field goal percentage went up so drastically.

Okur always had a respectable post game. He just had a jump shot to compliment it.

[Duffman100]

[quote="CreaM"][/quote]

Yes, but nobody is saying Durant is going to be a bust.

Yeah, the defense is focused on him, but he also gets like 20 shot attempts a game.

Obviously, I'd still take Durant over Bargnani, but Bargs isn't getting any slack at all. If he was on another team, selected 4th overall, there wouldn't be anything close to this pressure.

Everyone is so focused that he's the number 1 pick.

[Duffman100]

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Dirk was more than a shooter in his second season. That is why his field goal percentage went up so drastically.

Okur always had a respectable post game. He just had a jump shot to compliment it.

Dirk was still primarily a jump shooter, he just shot better.

Okur has always and still is a jump shooter. Is post game is seriously limited.

[I_Like_Dirt]

How on earth would forcing Andrea to take shots that he wasn't comfortable taking simply because the rest of the team didn't want to shoot, either, help Andrea's scoring percentages, duffman?

[Shaazzam]

I think strength causes him issues when he rebounds, but I think footwork is what is hindering him from having a more varied offensive game.

And since the discussion has been that he will be attending a bigman camp in the summer, I am willing to hold off on crucifying him. He needs an offseason with no commitments besides working on his game and his body.

[Duffman100]

How on earth would forcing Andrea to take shots that he wasn't comfortable taking simply because the rest of the team didn't want to shoot, either, help Andrea's scoring percentages, duffman?

Replace Durant with Andrea, and give him the same looks. He probably won't shoot quite as well, but when you shoot more, you tend to get out of shooting funks faster.

If I'm taking 20 shots a game, I'm probably going to start hitting more, rather than, if I'm taking 5 to 10 shots a game.

[ghuytro]

I think last summer with Italian NT hurt his development much more than probably BC & Maurizio ever would have thought.

He effectively missed a full summer of NBA centered drills, workouts etc.

[Duffman100]

I honestly just don't see the point in sitting here and whining

"we made the wrong pick, he's a bust, he'll never be great, blah blah"

either he will or he won't, at this point, lets just wait and see. Trading him won't get us the difference maker, nobody is going to offer anything amazing for him, so we might as well focus the energy on developing him.

He's got skill, he's got talent, he just needs to be developed.

edit: Plus we aren't going to the finals anytime soon, so really..cmon...

[CreaM]

Im going to have my share of criticism for Bargnani, not because he was the first overall pick but because I had ans still have certain expectations for him.

However, I will admit that he is NOT a finished product and that Bigman camp that BC signed him up for this summer will ultimately decide his fate with this organization even though I dont see BC trading him anytime soon (not good for his ego).

If Bargs comes out of training camp next season stomping my criticisms, I will GLADLY eat crow. I promise.

[Shaazzam]

Im going to have my share of criticism for Bargnani, not because he was the first overall pick but because I had ans still have certain expectations for him.

However, I will admit that he is NOT a finished product and that Bigman camp that BC signed him up for this summer will ultimately decide his fate with this organization even though I dont see BC trading him anytime soon (not good for his ego).

If Bargs comes out of training camp next season stomping my criticisms, I will GLADLY eat crow. I promise.

But if he isn't stomping people, but shows improvement will you be happy for at the time? Or is it a smash or be smashed situation?

[supersub15]

Right now, Jose and Bosh are the 2 pillars of the team. If we pick up a third pillar at the trade deadline next year, i.e. we will have 3 allstars or near-allstars, what will happen to Bargnani? Where is he going to find the shots to assert himself as a second option to Chris Bosh?

[Duffman100]

Im going to have my share of criticism for Bargnani, not because he was the first overall pick but because I had ans still have certain expectations for him.

However, I will admit that he is NOT a finished product and that Bigman camp that BC signed him up for this summer will ultimately decide his fate with this organization even though I dont see BC trading him anytime soon (not good for his ego).

If Bargs comes out of training camp next season stomping my criticisms, I will GLADLY eat crow. I promise.

Damn you! you're in a win/win situation. Either Bargs sucks and you win, or Bargs rocks and Raptors win.