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Caron was always a highly underrated player IMO.

Not saying he hasn't improved, but the guy has always been a stud.

The Duke wrote:Can Bargs be traded for an up and coming player, yes, but I dont think he can net a positive all-star, without excess baggage coming this way.

I'd like to think Colangelo drafted a player first overall who, if not an All-Star calibre player himself, could potentially net us an older, All-Star calibre veteran without taking on any ugly contracts.

Ah, don't mind me. I'm having a bad day.

wouldn't do it....we're more than an all star sg/sf away from winning the championship. better to develop his talent in house for now. i still think the Bosh/Bargnani has potential to be great. We would not have even considered this the same time last year.

Give the guy timeto climb out of this sophomore slump so we can really see what assets we have on our team.

Shaazzam wrote:Caron was always a highly underrated player IMO.

Not saying he hasn't improved, but the guy has always been a stud.

I remember following Caron quite closely in Los Angeles after Kobe suffered a fairly serious injury and marveled at his ability. I was absolutely dumbfounded after hearing they traded him to acquire Kwame Brown, of all people.

bling_singh wrote:wouldn't do it....we're more than an all star sg/sf away from winning the championship. better to develop his talent in house for now. i still think the Bosh/Bargnani has potential to be great. We would not have even considered this the same time last year.

Give the guy timeto climb out of this sophomore slump so we can really see what assets we have on our team.

Speak for yourself!

To be fair, I am interested in seeing how the Bosh/Bargnani duo develops and sincerely hope that everything falls into place. However, I've long considered moving Andrea to round out our roster properly (much like I did with Villaneuva when he was on our team the year prior).

ImissJordan wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Speak for yourself!

To be fair, I am interested in seeing how the Bosh/Bargnani duo develops and sincerely hope that everything falls into place. However, I've long considered moving Andrea to round out our roster properly (much like I did with Villaneuva when he was on our team the year prior).

Round out our roster properly? By trading our centre? Who plays centre? Rasho's only going to decline to complete obsolescence. Do you expect to get a solid C late in the draft and then take 2-3 years to develop him when Bargnani is now grasping the essence of playing help D?

You make no sense.

dagger wrote:Round out our roster properly? By trading our centre? Who plays centre? Rasho's only going to decline to complete obsolescence. Do you expect to get a solid C late in the draft and then take 2-3 years to develop him when Bargnani is now grasping the essence of playing help D?

You make no sense.

What centre are you referring to? Our 7 foot small forward/power forward who is being forced to play out of his natural position?

I'm not saying that we have to trade Andrea today, before the deadline OR this summer. I'm saying that if this experiment goes awry - and it would be folly for you to not acknowledge that as a possibility - then it might make some sense to trade one of our power forwards for a SF/SG, as opposed to forcing him to play another position (again, like we did with Charlie in 2005/06).

To reiterate, I would very much like to see if Chris/Andrea can play together, but to say the thought of moving him (so we can possibly find a better complement to Bosh) "makes no sense" is silly (and rude, I might add).

Edit: I don't believe that trading Andrea for a wing would leave us with a complete roster, either. Obviously, finding a true big man who can rebound/defend is easier said than done, but that path might be easier than stubbornly refusing to give up on a project that hasn't met expectations (assuming he doesn't, even though the jury is still out).

Here is how I am approaching this question:

"For what all-star calibre players would you be willing to include Andrea Bargnani in a trade to acquire?"

Ow. That hurts.

http://www.nba.com/allstar2008/players/

http://www.nba.com/allstar2007/players/

Looking a this year's roster first:

YES

Dwayne Wade
Kevin Garnett
LeBron James
Dwight Howard
Caron Butler
Joe Johnson
Carmello Anthony
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Yao Ming
Carlos Boozer
Chris Paul
Brandon Roy
Amare Stoudamire
David West

NO

Jason Kidd
Ray Allen
Chauncey Billups
Richard Hamilton
Antawn Jamison
Paul Pierce
Rasheed Wallace
Steve Nash
Dirk Nowitzki


So more or less, it breaks down on age - and the age is somewhere around 28 years old - any younger, and I would give up Andrea to get them - any older, and I'm holding on to him.

But there is no question that I am not LOOKING to trade Andrea - certainly not now that over the last 10 games he is averaging 16 points, 5 boards, and 2 assists on .445 from the floor and .467 from 3. Certainly not now that the Raps finally have their entire roster healthy coming off the break. Certainly not now that the Raps next 11 games feature only 2 against a team over.500 (they play Orlando twice).

So right now, I am not looking to trade anybody from this team.

At the end of the season, some hard decisions have to be made - but the bulk of those decisions depend heavily on what happens between now and the end of the season.

[quote="ImissJordan"][/quote]

His natural position is up for debate. He played perimetre in Europe. He's begin to adapt to the centre position. He's a better one on one defender already than a lot of centres, and is improving his help D. Wednesday against the Nets, he did exceedingly well on help, and before you trash that because of the quality of the opponents, it was his energy, footwork, rotations and reaction that were impressive, and those traits work against strong and weak opponents alike. For me and the friend with me, this was an eyeopener that he is "getting it". It takes a couple of years for a perimetre player to learn to play inside, and if he's "getting it", he is likely to get even better. If the rebounding remains as big an issue as it is now, I have always said there is a simple solution: get a tall small forward who is a good defender/rebounder, and take the big man's offensive might in lieu of scoring at the small forward position. Bargnani can't be a bad defender, but if rebounding is his only blind spot, you can certainly compensate, just as Rik Smits was never a great rebounder but was a pillar of the elite Pacers of the late 1990s because Indiana got great rebounding out of the Davis boys. As it is, Bosh is a great rebounder, so go out and find a good rebounding defending small forward. You're more likely to get that with the 17th pick in the draft than you will a good centre.

More importantly, such a SF will never tax your salary cap.

We have long pined for a good second scorer. Well, we have Bosh and with Forderon, especially with Jose's great shooting, we have a second scorer at the point. Keep in mind that Jose is shooting better than last season, and T.J., just prior to being injured, had raised his offence to a new level which we all hope he can get back to. If Bargnani becomes a consistent offensive threat, and we find a good slashing shooting SG for the future - doesn't have to score 20 ppg either - we're going to have more than enough offence to compensate for a real hard working rebounder/defender at SF.

Guy Smiley wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



There was this guy who would repeatedly tell me how dumb the +/- stat was and how it should not be used in any way shape or form in the analysis of a player. Surprisingly this is one of Bargnani's strongest stats so it is good to see you are using it to prop up the player we all cheer for.

If you happen to figure out which poster it was that would bash that stat please point out to him how the +/- stat clearly establishes Bargnani as a force to be reckoned with both now and in the future. More than ever you have made me a believer in the +/- stat when the doubters had otherwise shaken my confidence in my faith in the +/- statistic in isolation.

Regardless of how poor Andrea's other statistical measures appear to be it is comforting knowing the +/- stat paints the true picture of his incredible performances.

Was that me?

Wade
LBJ
D12
Yao
West
Mello

All yes but no way would any of those players be offered for Bargs.

Would you pull the trigger for Manu?

he's getting up there in age though, (31), that my only concern, but we can make run for the championship

bargnani will be a great piece to the puzzle.
this is his second year and I really see him turning into something special.
patience is a virtue. we can get a slasher sg/sf with relative ease in the near future.
tell me where you get a talented big man like that anywhere else?

dagger wrote:His natural position is up for debate. He played perimetre in Europe. He's begin to adapt to the centre position. He's a better one on one defender already than a lot of centres, and is improving his help D. Wednesday against the Nets, he did exceedingly well on help, and before you trash that because of the quality of the opponents, it was his energy, footwork, rotations and reaction that were impressive, and those traits work against strong and weak opponents alike. For me and the friend with me, this was an eyeopener that he is "getting it". It takes a couple of years for a perimetre player to learn to play inside, and if he's "getting it", he is likely to get even better. If the rebounding remains as big an issue as it is now, I have always said there is a simple solution: get a tall small forward who is a good defender/rebounder, and take the big man's offensive might in lieu of scoring at the small forward position. Bargnani can't be a bad defender, but if rebounding is his only blind spot, you can certainly compensate, just as Rik Smits was never a great rebounder but was a pillar of the elite Pacers of the late 1990s because Indiana got great rebounding out of the Davis boys. As it is, Bosh is a great rebounder, so go out and find a good rebounding defending small forward. You're more likely to get that with the 17th pick in the draft than you will a good centre.

More importantly, such a SF will never tax your salary cap.

We have long pined for a good second scorer. Well, we have Bosh and with Forderon, especially with Jose's great shooting, we have a second scorer at the point. Keep in mind that Jose is shooting better than last season, and T.J., just prior to being injured, had raised his offence to a new level which we all hope he can get back to. If Bargnani becomes a consistent offensive threat, and we find a good slashing shooting SG for the future - doesn't have to score 20 ppg either - we're going to have more than enough offence to compensate for a real hard working rebounder/defender at SF.

Being that I don't have a lot of time to carry this conversation further and I don't believe Colangelo will move Andrea now or in the foreseeable future, I will say this:

I hope you're right.

I don't know why we are discussing this. Unless someone comes to us with a ridiculous deal (which wont happen) we should not trade Andrea Bargnani. The guy is seriously talented, he;s going to be an allstar player and the Raptors will have a top 3 frontcourts in the NBA.

Another reason we shoudlnt trade him, is that why in the world would we trade him now, when his value is goign to continue to increase. Bad business move.

Finally, except for 3 months, Bargnani has played very well. I'm sure if he was on a lottery bound team, he would be average 20+ points per game.

Let'e have a little bit more patience here.

That SG/SF we all desire will come, BC will find one, but not at the expense of his number 1 pick.

raps9 wrote:Finally, except for 3 months, Bargnani has played very well.

One of my favorite posts of all time.

BCK wrote:
Was that me?

I was actually referencing the poster I was quoting but I do know the +/- stat has taken a beating on these boards until the recent immergence of Andrea the Great.

I wouldn't trade him this second unless we get an offer that is over and above his value. I don't think his value is that high right now, and think it will go up in the future. I don't think Bosh, and Bargnani will win us any championships but I do think they will be good players.

If we cold actually get an Allstar level player for Bargs then I'de do it in a second. Then try and trade a PG+Rasho's expiring for Dalembert or something like that.

Guy Smiley wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



I was actually referencing the poster I was quoting but I do know the +/- stat has taken a beating on these boards until the recent immergence of Andrea the Great.

Don't worry. I'm not going to let a little thing like Andrea Bargnani get in the way of bashing that pansy stat.

It would take a lot more than Andrea Bargnani to get an all star SF/SG.