What if trading for an allstar SG/SF meant trading Andrea?

[supersub15]

We are weak in 2 areas right now: C and on the wings (SF/SG). We have average to below-average players at those spots (and no Andrea is not a difference maker yet). However, plugging up the wings at this point with an allstar might require something of value. Trading for Ron Artest is going to require eating up Thomas' salary. Trading for Mike Miller is going to require eating up Cardinal's salary. I don't think the franchise is willing to go that route.

However, there might be some other options out there that require assets instead of eating salaries. How would you feel about trading Andrea if it meant getting back an allstar or a near-allstar talent at the wings (somebody like Iguodala comes to mind)? Would you do it or are you tantalized by what Bargnani could become and wait?

[5DOM]

depends how good the all star is (or "what" he is good at).

if he can create and defend, i would trade anyone but bosh.

[Teabag]

I'm not ready to give up on him but if the right deal comes along then I'd be willing to listen ... but I don't think that we need to deal him to address the SF position and I have thought for a long time that getting Magette from the Clippers was the main deal that we need to make ... when Harrington was a FA I wanted that to be the big splash that the Raps made but since it didn't happen I though that Magette when healthy is the perfect fit for us and he showed the people that had never seen him before the other night just how good he can be ... The Clips have been rumored to be looking to get rid of him for some time now and I'm not sure what we'd have to give up to get him but I don't think Bargnani would have to be included

[TheMainEvent]

Im not a Bargnani hater, and I think he still has good upside and potential.

But if it meant someone like Rudy Gay, Andre Iguodala, Josh Smith, Corey Maggette, Gerald Wallace, etc... someone fairly young, athletic, etc... then I would probably do it.

[Antoine_Wright21]

If it were possible to do in negative time, I would definitely do it.

But seriously, i'd trade Bargnani for a all-star calibre wingman.

If we could swing something for someone like Caron Butler or Rudy Gay or Andre Iguodala.. i'm all for it. Well maybe not for Iggy but def for someone like Butler would provide not only a true leader and 2nd option. If not someone like Butler who is ready to contribute immediately.. someone like Rudy Gay who is proving that he has the potential to be very good and is also producing at a good level right now.

[C Court]

I believe Andrea has tons of potential, which will rise to the surface over the next year or two.

However, he's not untouchable by any means. If the right deal came along for a star SF/SG - then Bryan has to seriously consider it.

[Buyaka]

If Andrea can improve on his recent trend, he'll be a solid player. I would wait for this 4 year experiment. 2/3 are dime a dozen, but not 5 who can shoot, drive and defend (yes, he will better in the future)

[mintsa]

I think it's still too early to give up on Andrea even if it means getting an allstar back. It could come to haunt the team a couple of years later.

[dagger]

Those who say trade Andrea better make sure they can figure out what to do with the C position in a year. Rasho is past 30 now, and he's useful in moderate doses, but in a year or two...

I'd rather look to the draft and a summer trade for the SF situation. Trade Andrea now and a new search begins for a 5. The 5 is a position he might fill very well. It's otherwise a position that has been a nightmare for us to fill, and it's a hard one for the rest of the league to fill.

[ImissJordan]

Bargnani may eventually become a 20/5/3 type of player, but I'd rather see those numbers come from a swingman instead of a big man. I'd trade him for an All-Star SG/SF and then begin our search for a defensive-minded, rebounding centre.

[willis_reborn]

Only way you trade bargnani is if you get back igoudala. i'd give up anything but bosh to swing a dalembert + iggy deal. that would make us instant contenders in east along with Bos & Det.

[Koosh]

There's no way BC even considers moving Andrea anytime soon. I think it's more likely that Bosh gets traded this year AKA there's no chance in hell.

[ImissJordan]

Those who say trade Andrea better make sure they can figure out what to do with the C position in a year. Rasho is past 30 now, and he's useful in moderate doses, but in a year or two...

I'd rather look to the draft and a summer trade for the SF situation. Trade Andrea now and a new search begins for a 5. The 5 is a position he might fill very well. It's otherwise a position that has been a nightmare for us to fill, and it's a hard one for the rest of the league to fill.

While I agree that finding a 5 isn't as easy as cow-tippin', I don't think we'd need to bring in an All-Star centre (which are becoming ridiculously hard to find). We have more than enough scoring on our team; all we're looking for is a serviceable big. Look at guys like Fabricio Oberto, Jeff Foster, Joel Przybilla, Dasagna Diop, Kurt Thomas....

I just think it's much easier to find a big man who can do things big men are expected to do as opposed to finding a SF who can try to do the things Bargnani can't do.

[Teabag]

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While I agree that finding a 5 isn't as easy as cow-tippin', I don't think we'd need to bring in an All-Star centre (which are becoming ridiculously hard to find). We have more than enough scoring on our team; all we're looking for is a serviceable big. Look at guys like Fabricio Oberto, Jeff Foster, Joel Przybilla, Dasagna Diop, Kurt Thomas....

I just think it's much easier to find a big man who can do things big men are expected to do as opposed to finding a SF who can try to do the things Bargnani can't do.

I'm not for or against the trading of Bargnani but I'm of the opposite thinking that it's harder to find a 5 that can do some of the things AB can do and hopefully will eventually do on a nightly basis than it is to find a wing that can do what Bargnani can't ... like I said., I'd be willing to listen but it'd have to be a whopper

[dagger]

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While I agree that finding a 5 isn't as easy as cow-tippin', I don't think we'd need to bring an All-Star centre (which are becoming ridiculously hard to find). We have more than enough scoring on our team; all we're looking for is a serviceable big. Look at guys like Fabricio Oberto, Jeff Foster, Joel Przybilla, Dasagna Diop, Kurt Thomas....

I just think it's much easier to find a big man who can do things big man are expected to do as opposed to finding a SF who can try to do the things Bargnani can't do.

It's never easy to find a 5. It's rubbish to insinuate otherwise. Kurt Thomas and Jeff Foster play for losers. Oberto plays with an MVP and the best coach in the league. Diop comes off the bench behind Dampier. Both Diop and Dampier are severely offensively challenged to the point where you don't have to defend them, which, I submit to you, helps teams cover Dirk and Josh more effectively. If Kurt Thomas is your answer, I'd shudder... I like Kurt as a cheap pickup for depth, but not as a long-term answer to play 35 minutes a night for 10 years. Looking around the league, the new trend is to play power forwards at C, which is always a suboptimal solution, which is why the Suns worked out an unlikely trade to move Amare back to PF.

How hard is it to get a good C? The Suns just gave up and all-star level SF who is not yet 30, and took on a $20 million salary that has two more years after this one, to acquire the obviously declining talent that is Shaq. It may seem like a bad move to many, and it could prove to be, but in their book, it was better to trade Shawn Marion for a C who would allow them to shift Amare back to PF, than to trade Marion for his asset value.

Unlike you, I project forward when I analyze players. I can see Bargnani being an offensive all-star, a quality defender, and an adequate rebounder. I would then develop the offensive and defensive schemes to max that out, give opposing defences nightmare matchups, and get the most out of good team defence and rebounding.

Watching us now, I'm of the view that we don't need a great scoring/creating SF/SG so much as we need a great defensive SF/SG. With the Bosh-Bargnani combination and our scoring point guards, we don't even have the 20-30 shots a night for a star wing player combination, but we do need the defence that a pair of top defenders would bring. That alone would make us contenders in a year or two.

[ImissJordan]

I'm not for or against the trading of Bargnani but I'm of the opposite thinking that it's harder to find a 5 that can do some of the things AB can do and hopefully will eventually do on a nightly basis than it is to find a wing that can do what Bargnani can't ... like I said., I'd be willing to listen but it'd have to be a whopper

I agree that you won't find many centre's who are capable of doing what Bargnani can, but what does Andrea provide that a shooting guard/small forward wouldn't?

[Teabag]

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I agree that you won't find many centre's who are capable of doing what Bargnani can, but what does Andrea provide that a shooting guard/small forward wouldn't?

the main thing that AB provides that a SF/SG doesn't is that he's a 5 ... I'd take what we have now AB & Parker/Moon/Delfino over Igoudala or Maggette & any of the 5's you mentioned ... replacing a 5 is one of the tougher positions to fill IMO ... I agree that we need an upgrade at the 2/3 but to do it at the expense of AB is just tough to do

[dagger]

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I agree that you won't find many centre's who are capable of doing what Bargnani can, but what does Andrea provide that a shooting guard/small forward wouldn't?

Size, shot alteration, the ability to pull opposing centres out of the paint with his three point shooting. A lot of good SF and SG are average defenders. We list the names of SF and SG we'd like, and nobody has the foggiest ideas of whether they play D. All we know is that they have numbers and hops. Posters claim to know what Bargnani's defensive ceiling is, but couldn't give you the slightest insight into the defensive capabilities of the players they'd trade him for because they don't watch them enough and defensive stats are even more misleading than offensive stats.

A lot of people would love to have Joe Johnson but I have to tell you, that for what he's paid, he comes up small on both sides of the ball.

And from what I've seen the past few weeks, we need a defensive upgrade on the wing more than we need an offensive upgrade.

[The Ballboy]

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Size, shot alteration, the ability to pull opposing centres out of the paint with his three point shooting. A lot of good SF and SG are average defenders. We list the names of SF and SG we'd like, and nobody has the foggiest ideas of whether they play D. All we know is that they have numbers and hops. Posters claim to know what Bargnani's defensive ceiling is, but couldn't give you the slightest insight into the defensive capabilities of the players they'd trade him for because they don't watch them enough and defensive stats are even more misleading than offensive stats.

A lot of people would love to have Joe Johnson but I have to tell you, that for what he's paid, he comes up small on both sides of the ball.

And from what I've seen the past few weeks, we need a defensive upgrade on the wing more than we need an offensive upgrade.

True, however part of the reason that teams SG/SF go off on us is b/c we dont' make the opposing SG/SF have to work on defense. Everyone knows exactly where Parker is gonna be on any given play. Sitting outside that 3 point arch and until Moon learns to consitantly hit that outside shot you can play so far off him you can double anyone else you choose on the floor. SG and SF dont' have to work to hard defensively when the opposing team (us) only runs pick roll all day long between the PG and PF.

[ImissJordan]

It's never easy to find a 5. It's rubbish to insinuate otherwise. Kurt Thomas and Jeff Foster play for losers. Oberto plays with an MVP and the best coach in the league. Diop comes off the bench behind Dampier. Both Diop and Dampier are severely offensively challenged to the point where you don't have to defend them, which, I submit to you, helps teams cover Dirk and Josh more effectively. If Kurt Thomas is your answer, I'd shudder... I like Kurt as a cheap pickup for depth, but not as a long-term answer to play 35 minutes a night for 10 years. Looking around the league, the new trend is to play power forwards at C, which is always a suboptimal solution, which is why the Suns worked out an unlikely trade to move Amare back to PF.

How hard is it to get a good C? The Suns just gave up and all-star level SF who is not yet 30, and took on a $20 million salary that has two more years after this one, to acquire the obviously declining talent that is Shaq. It may seem like a bad move to many, and it could prove to be, but in their book, it was better to trade Shawn Marion for a C who would allow them to shift Amare back to PF, than to trade Marion for his asset value.

Unlike you, I project forward when I analyze players. I can see Bargnani being an offensive all-star, a quality defender, and an adequate rebounder. I would then develop the offensive and defensive schemes to max that out, give opposing defences nightmare matchups, and get the most out of good team defence and rebounding.

Watching us now, I'm of the view that we don't need a great scoring/creating SF/SG so much as we need a great defensive SF/SG. With the Bosh-Bargnani combination and our scoring point guards, we don't even have the 20-30 shots a night for a star wing player combination, but we do need the defence that a pair of top defenders would bring. That alone would make us contenders in a year or two.

I never insinuated that it's "easy" to acquire a centre. Foster and Thomas may both play for losers, but they're not losing because of said players.

And how many teams play power forwards at the centre position? I can think only of Atlanta (Horford), Detroit (Rasheed) and Utah (Okur). Many teams prefer to keep their power forwards at power forward (Duncan/Oberto, Perkins/Garnett, etc). Heck, doesn't Phoenix trading for Shaq best illustrate the point being made, here? They've been playing an unconventional style of ball for years now (and Amare/Marion are a better rebounding/defensive pair than Bosh/Bargnani) and they still elected to move Amare back to his natural position and bring in a true 5.

Either way, I really like Andrea and still remain somewhat hopeful that Colangelo/Mitchell can make this work, but when looking to history it's hard to ignore the amount of teams that have won a title with a real big man.