Guard Play is bringing us down

[Shaazzam]

Jose: 3-7 FG 5 Ast 3 Reb 3 TO 8 Pts
AP: 5-11 FG 0 Ast 3 Reb 2 TO 10 Pts

Billups: 5-9 FG 4 Ast 3 Reb 2 TO 20 Pts
Rip: 16-22 F 6 Ast 4 Reb 0 TO 39 Pts

People can crap all over our bigs but I feel a major item is getting overlooked. And It's the type of thing that bugs me in the whole TJ vs Jose thing. Jose was atrocious last night, and he gets a free pass. He couldn't initiate anything offensively and got abused by Billups, but he's supposed to sign somewhere for 9 million next season. Now we can chalk it up as a bad matchup, or heavy minutes against POR, and continue to throw AB under the bus. Or we can accept the fact that this team either needs TJ back badly or we need to upgrade the 2.

Unless we get a top tier 2 for Jose. he will lead us to nothing more then mediocrity. He isn't dynamic enough offensively and cannot guard his own position. Now I love the guy and I feel bad typing this about him, but the amount of flack our bigs are getting is unwarranted and small minded. These guys don't control the ball, they aren't supposed to initiate the offence, they aren't at the point of attack defensively.

I love AP, but the guy has lost a step this year and cannot break down defenses. He can hit seams and lanes that are already there, but he can't break anyone down.

Yes items like rebounding are a major issue, and you ahve to play with the personnel that you have. But I think we have some of the weakest guard play around with TJ out. Our 2's are support players at best and Jose is not equipped to play major minutes against the best teams night in and night out. He can't play good enough defence and he can't break teams down without the benefit of a screen and/or a defensive miscue.

TJ I hope you come back soon man and restore some balance to the lineup, because without you we don't have enough pure talent to beat the best teams. We try to out execute them and sometimes we are able to, but we can't beat them on raw talent.

Thoughts?

[I_Like_Dirt]

I think Parker has lost a step and losing Ford was a MAJOR blow.

Another extremely significant factor that you completely gloss over IS the bigs. Last season the team had Bosh, a better version of Rasho and Garbajosa as their primary defensive bigs. While the team still doubled all the time, they could do so with confidence knowing that all three of those guys would be where they were supposed to be doing what they were supposed to be doing. In short, the perimeter defenders had a much easier job last season because the bigmen wouldn't need quite as strong help with their own men and were smart enough to know when, where and how to cut off slashing and passing lanes and generally co-ordinate the defense.

Fast forward to this season and Rasho is even more situational defensively than he was last season- he gets slower by the season, clearly- and while Bosh has improved he wasn't never a problem to begin with. Substitute Bargnani and Humphries for Rasho and Garbo and the there is a LOT more defensive pressure placed upon the team's guards. That's to be expected with young players relative seasoned vets who made the league in the first place due to their defensive acumen, but it's also something that needs to change eventually and if/when it does it will make the guards look quite a bit better than they do against certain teams right now.

[Shaazzam]

Excellent point ILD, and it can be seen as a chicken and egg thing.

But to me, as much as we talk about dominant big men winning championships, it still is a guard driven league. These guys facilitate the offence for others and are at the initial point of attack on defence. Right now we have two guys that can barely guard their own position, while we are asking a kid to learn how to guard a new position(well maybe any position.)

[PrimeTime21]

I still think you guys would be serious contenders with a center like Dalembert. He is playing out of his mind lately, averaging 15.2 PPG, 13.6 RPG, and 2.4 BPG over his last five games. He is also the onlyEastern Conference center besides Howard to be averaging a double double.

I think that is the real need on the Raptors, a defensive minded center who can rebound the ball consistently and it will become more evident into the playoffs.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I definitely agree about the guard play on offense. As much as I love Jose and think he's a top 10 or 15 starter in the league he definitely isn't a lead guard and this team desperately needs one to break down opposing defenses. Ford can be a lead guard if you need him to be and that's the biggest reason why the Raptors miss him (with his defense coming in second).

Unfortunately, even having a healthy TJ as a lead guard takes away minutes from the team's other top guard in Jose. Eventually the team is going to have to sort out their guard situation, and they may even decide to do a patch job if TJ is out for too long.

[bakafool]

Fact is that we cannot beat Detroit or any other elite team if we are not full strength. We're just getting by without TJ and Garbo, but we need those two to be serious playoff contenders.

[Shaazzam]

Unfortunately, even having a healthy TJ as a lead guard takes away minutes from the team's other top guard in Jose. Eventually the team is going to have to sort out their guard situation, and they may even decide to do a patch job if TJ is out for too long.

And to further complicate matters, we can't play our two best guards together.

[jaketherap]

I think you are being a little too harsh on JC and AP. Detroit arguably has the best players at the 1 and 2 in the eastern conference (certainly amongst the best). RIP and Billups are a difficult assignment for any team, not just the Raps.

We definitely miss TJ and that's not necessarily because he is so much better than Calderon, but more because having them both allows us to play two high quality guards for a full 48 minutes. Not many other teams have the ability to do that.

[Hank_Scorpio]

Unfortunately, even having a healthy TJ as a lead guard takes away minutes from the team's other top guard in Jose. Eventually the team is going to have to sort out their guard situation, and they may even decide to do a patch job if TJ is out for too long.

I disagree with this.

The problem now is that the Raptors have become a one-pace team. They tend to play well, but they tend not to push the ball to put pressure on the defense. That, if nothing else, is something that TJ brought that is missing right now.

That is also why I believe that, long-term, Jose cannot be the starting point guard for this team. For another team? Absolutely. But this team needs a point guard that puts pressure on the defense and Calderon just does not do that.

I'd also add that while Calderon CAN be a starter, he is actually probably better suited to be a backup playing significant minutes. The reason I say that is because his strengths - consistency, a good shot, few mistakes - are ideal for a backup point. And his weakness - a lack of aggressiveness and being unwilling to take chances - are problems for a starter.

Just so none of the Jose clones don't attack me - I am definitely NOT saying he isn't talented enough to be a starter.

[Shaazzam]

I'd also add that while Calderon CAN be a starter, he is actually probably better suited to be a backup playing significant minutes. The reason I say that is because his strengths - consistency, a good shot, few mistakes - are ideal for a backup point. And his weakness - a lack of aggressiveness and being unwilling to take chances - are problems for a starter.

I think a key one to add is his inability to guard his own position.

And before someone brings up Steve Nash's lackluster defence, he is a much, much better team defender. Granted he has better athletes covering for him, but he brings way more than Jose does offensively to make up for his lack of defence.

[dacrusha]

Jose's defense has been horrible all year, so it's no surprise that the Pistons have had a field day in both our meetings.

[Big Shot]

Raps lose more often to teams that can shoot from the perimeter, because they tend to collapse too much to the middle on the defense. That's the defense system they have and don't seem to change accordingly.

On the offense, they also slow it down quite a bit even before TJ went down. At least that's what I noticed. So don't blame the players.

If there's anything wrong with that, it's on the coaching staff who put together the strategies.

[Shaazzam]

I think you are being a little too harsh on JC and AP. Detroit arguably has the best players at the 1 and 2 in the eastern conference (certainly amongst the best). RIP and Billups are a difficult assignment for any team, not just the Raps.

Possibly, and one of the main thrusts of my topic is to counteract all the crap I keep seeing that it's all AB's or CB4's or even Sam's fault.

Our guards were absolutely atrocious last night, and they are seem to be getting a free pass.

And the thing that really irritates me, and I am falling into the TJ vs JC thing, is that TJ never, ever gets a free pass, even when he plays well.

[Shaazzam]

Raps lose more often to teams that can shoot from the perimeter, because they tend to collapse too much to the middle on the defense. That's the defense system they have and don't seem to change accordingly.

On the offense, they also slow it down quite a bit even before TJ went down. At least that's what I noticed. So don't blame the players.

If there's anything wrong with that, it's on the coaching staff who put together the strategies.

So by Sam changing the defensive philosophy, Jose is all of a sudden going to be able to keep opposing PG's from whatever they want to do?

And really, you have to ask yourself, why does this team have to collapse so much?

Is it the system? Or is it because the guards can't keep guys out of the lane?

[PrinceV]

Fact is that we cannot beat Detroit or any other elite team if we are not full strength. We're just getting by without TJ and Garbo, but we need those two to be serious playoff contenders.

I agree with you, but the Raps beat teams like Dallas, SA, New Orleans and Portland without TJ and Garbo.

I find it this year the Raps are more of half court team than last year. I think Bosh gets better looks and position when they start running. TJ is really missed to make things worst the bench loses Calderon. Teams are often going zone which puts more attention on Bosh. Without the penetration in the middle or movement of the ball from east to west, Raps are shooting outside.

[RapsVC15]

I don't think it's a stretch to say, defensively, we probably have one of the worst starting 2/3's in the league.

[Shaazzam]

-= original quote snipped =-



I agree with you, but the Raps beat teams like Dallas, SA, New Orleans and Portland without TJ and Garbo.

I find it this year the Raps are more of half court team than last year. I think Bosh gets better looks and position when they start running. TJ is really missed to make things worst the bench loses Calderon. Teams are often going zone which puts more attention on Bosh. Without the penetration in the middle or movement of the ball from east to west, Raps are shooting outside.

NO is not elite, nor is Portland. SA had major injuries, but we did take care of business against them. Dallas played like trash, we did have a bunch to do with that, like Hump playing out of his mind, but I've never seen Dallas miss so many chippies.

[Shaazzam]

I don't think it's a stretch to say, defensively, we probably have one of the worst starting 2/3's in the league.

I disagree. They get minutes because they can play defence.

I think the problem with AP and Moon is that AP can't break down defences and Moon can't dribble.

Jose can't break down defences on his own either, so he can't let AP do what he does best offensively, namely spot up. And if I was a defence I'd sag off moon and let him shoot jumpers all day long.

[Leiro]

In my opinion the big problem in Raptors is the rebound, we can

[chsh22]

-= original quote snipped =-
Possibly, and one of the main thrusts of my topic is to counteract all the crap I keep seeing that it's all AB's or CB4's or even Sam's fault.

Our guards were absolutely atrocious last night, and they are seem to be getting a free pass.

And the thing that really irritates me, and I am falling into the TJ vs JC thing, is that TJ never, ever gets a free pass, even when he plays well.

Before TJ was injured, the Jose haters never gave Jose a free pass either. They just aren't gonna jump up and scream at how BAD Jose's been playing because "their guy" is out with an injury and could possibly not play again.

Say what you will about our PGs right now, but between the two, I'll put my eggs in the Jose basket from a durability standpoint. I'd love to keep them both, but if it's going to cost us 18+ million per year to keep two guys who play the same position, I don't see us doing it. We have to re-sign Jose either way, because right now he's the sure thing. TJ is not.

Jose probably won't lead us to a championship. Our team currently is Bosh and a bunch of perimeter shooters with some banger backups. TJ was basically our primary drive & kick player, and with us looking at '09 before we can make a splash, I don't think that's going to change.

The way to fix this if TJ has to retire is to keep Jose and sign a driving wing. You know, what John Salmons or Fred Jones were supposed to be.