PG: Wizards have a superior tank

[ForeverTFC]

How long does RJ have to play well before he's not thought of as an after thought that we have to trade down the line?

The man simply scores too often and has too much confidence and success driving to the hoop to ever fit well on this team.

People talk about how he will be shut down in the playoffs. Are we in the playoffs? Were DeRozen's free throws not taken away in the playoffs? Did we not give him year after year to improve, or did we toss him when he was 23?

Why is another team going to trade a better player for him unless we find another rental like Kawhi? You're not getting a Kawhi type player on a long contract for him.

The issue most have with RJ is his fit around an IQ/Scottie core. He doesn’t space it and he’s a subpar defender. I’d love to be proven wrong though, he’s a competitor and I love everything he represents.

[disoblige]

RJ is still .61 TS as a raptor. How many people said he was falling down to earth eventually? Probably most Knick's fans and some Raptor fans.

[720]

IQ propaganda is at an all time high on Twitter today and I’m all for it.

[disoblige]

Read on Twitter

We got another young all-star to pair with Scottie.
RJ might just end up being another...

OG trade was a home run there's no denying that....even the haters on here won't deny it.

Nah haters will find something else to complain about. Quickly was obviously the main target and getting RJ was a bonus.

[Scase]

Did you watch the game? Cause he played a very well rounded game, quite the opposite of 'incredibly limited'.

You specifically responded to the post with lols about how this wasn't a good game to comment on RJs play. I think most people who actually watched the game would say he played very well, even if it was against Washington.

7 of his 9 made FGs were layups and 1 dunk, he was cutting to the basket, or driving against a bad defender. There is nothing expansive about his offence. His offensive game is very limited, this is just irrefutable fact, shot charts exist. He has a game, that vs good defensive teams/in the playoffs, is easy to shut down. He needs a mid range shot, or a very good 3pt shot.

Right. So you didn't watch the game and instead based your opinion on shot charts. Got it.

Right. So you have no argument. Got it.

Did you watch the game? Cause he played a very well rounded game, quite the opposite of 'incredibly limited'.

You specifically responded to the post with lols about how this wasn't a good game to comment on RJs play. I think most people who actually watched the game would say he played very well, even if it was against Washington.

7 of his 9 made FGs were layups and 1 dunk, he was cutting to the basket, or driving against a bad defender. There is nothing expansive about his offence. His offensive game is very limited, this is just irrefutable fact, shot charts exist. He has a game, that vs good defensive teams/in the playoffs, is easy to shut down. He needs a mid range shot, or a very good 3pt shot.

There's nothing wrong with having a limited game as long as he can be effective. Dude can be a #2-3 scorer on the team. What he needs to work on is his all-round shooting, but at the moment, being a situational catch and shooter is fine too.

If you look back at the Knicks board, they were complaining last playoffs on how Randle was outperformed by RJ.

Randle (28 years old)
vs CLE: 14.4 PPG 33.8 FG%, 23.5 3P%
vs Miami: 18.8 PPG 41.1 FG%, 28.1 3P%

RJ (23 years old)
vs CLE: 17.4 PPG 44.1 FG%, 25 3P%
vs Miami: 20.8 PPG 42.7 FG% 37.8 3P%

Both Cleveland and Miami have very good defenses. Keep in mind that his shot selection and the Knick's situation wasn't great for him to begin with. Quickley also struggled much more than either RJ/Randle, and he was going against bench players.

You don't need every core piece to be perfect. Pretty much every player on our roster has some major limitations for their respective positions/roles. Core pieces can also still be traded, happens all the time.

If he maintained or goes back to his shot selection and style of play during the Knicks, then we'd have a major problem in terms of his fit and usefulness.

Yeah, he could even be a #1 option, the point is what kind of team has him as a #1/2/3 option. Maybe he could be a solid #2, if we had a fantastic #1 offensive player, but we don't. So any team that has him as the 2nd option, is not going to be a particularly good team.

[RoteSchroder]

Yeah, he could even be a #1 option, the point is what kind of team has him as a #1/2/3 option. Maybe he could be a solid #2, if we had a fantastic #1 offensive player, but we don't. So any team that has him as the 2nd option, is not going to be a particularly good team.

Kind of depends on the make-up of the team. On the Raps, it's not that clear cut. On-ball usage is spread out between Quickley/Scottie/RJ.

For Miami, his PPG is around the same as Butler/Bam, but on that team, him being either 2 or 3 on offense wouldn't be that clear cut either as the usage would likely be spread out and Bam's value is more so on the defensive end. Same thing with Orlando, Wagner's more so of a two way player and not exactly a clear cut #2 on O. He can also be a 2 on Cleveland as Garland is fairly inconsistent offensively.

On other playoff teams, he'd be more of a clear cut 3rd offensive option (assuming he replaces guys like Jaylen Brown, Khris Middleton, McDaniels, Michael Porter Jr, Harden, Tim Hardaway Jr., Beal, etc.)

But that's essentially his role in the league. If the Raptors are to succeed with this core, they need to have a spread out offense while being a top defensive team (Cleveland, Miami, Orlando). Either that or Scottie needs to enter the upper echelon of offensive all-stars, which I think is unlikely.

As of now, we really only have three plus defenders in our main, near-future rotation (Poeltl, Scottie, Ochai) while the rest are average to below average (IQ, RJ, Gradey, GTJr, Olynyk)

[ArthurVandelay]

This season serves as a reminder of just how bad a sub 30-win team looks, and how hard it is to purposefully be worse than other teams that have crappy rosters, or even top-loaded rosters who suffer a key injury or two (or three) and can justify a deep tank without drawing the ire of the NBA.

That said, I've always like Avidja and would love too see what he can do with some actual (non-clueless like Poole) talent around him. Great connecting piece but can actually score, rebound and pass at a decent level. Has a bit of an edge to him too.

The rest of that Wiz roster was hot garbage.

They have Avidja on a ridiculous contract extension…

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/washington-wizards/deni-avdija-70651/

4 years, $55m declining

$15.6m next year and $11m in 2027-2028

[Green Backpack]

Wow 2 wins a row! Thankfully Memphis won some games there so hopefully we should still be ok. Utah is driving a strong tank right now as well.

[deck]

Right. So you have no argument. Got it.

I only stated that RJ had a good game and effected the outcome in several different ways. This was in response to you calling out another poster saying this wasn't a good game to complement RJ. You retorted by pointing to his shot chart and making a non-sequitar about how easily his game will be shut down in the playoffs.

It is you that have failed to make a meaningful argument and while doing so clearly demonstrated that you didn't even watch the game.

[deck]

How long does RJ have to play well before he's not thought of as an after thought that we have to trade down the line?

The man simply scores too often and has too much confidence and success driving to the hoop to ever fit well on this team.

People talk about how he will be shut down in the playoffs. Are we in the playoffs? Were DeRozen's free throws not taken away in the playoffs? Did we not give him year after year to improve, or did we toss him when he was 23?

Why is another team going to trade a better player for him unless we find another rental like Kawhi? You're not getting a Kawhi type player on a long contract for him.

The issue most have with RJ is his fit around an IQ/Scottie core. He doesn’t space it and he’s a subpar defender. I’d love to be proven wrong though, he’s a competitor and I love everything he represents.

Slashing also creates space, and in some ways is a bigger need for this team than 3pt shooting. Barnes and IQ need smart players around them that make the right play, and so far in Toronto, RJ has been doing that. Further, it's not like he is a terrible 3pt shooter. He's shoots slightly below average 3pt percentages on his career, and in 2020/2021 shot above 40% for the season. He's doing that again right now.

[ForeverTFC]

The man simply scores too often and has too much confidence and success driving to the hoop to ever fit well on this team.

People talk about how he will be shut down in the playoffs. Are we in the playoffs? Were DeRozen's free throws not taken away in the playoffs? Did we not give him year after year to improve, or did we toss him when he was 23?

Why is another team going to trade a better player for him unless we find another rental like Kawhi? You're not getting a Kawhi type player on a long contract for him.

The issue most have with RJ is his fit around an IQ/Scottie core. He doesn’t space it and he’s a subpar defender. I’d love to be proven wrong though, he’s a competitor and I love everything he represents.

Slashing also creates space, and in some ways is a bigger need for this team than 3pt shooting. Barnes and IQ need smart players around them that make the right play, and so far in Toronto, RJ has been doing that. Further, it's not like he is a terrible 3pt shooter. He's shoots slightly below average 3pt percentages on his career, and in 2020/2021 shot above 40% for the season. He's doing that again right now.

I understand it in the context of our roster today when it comes to the offense. I'll also cede that it's been hard for me to let go of my biases when it comes to Barrett. With that said:

The defensive end still presents a major challenge. Ideally, you want Barnes roaming on defense and even if we have him cover wings, we've seen enough to know he just isn't well suited to defend the point of attack consistently. IQ isn't going to be able to do it either. Given Barrett isn't a great defender, you also don't want him guarding the lead guard. So with IQ/Barrett/Barnes/Poeltl slotted in, you have 2 major holes: 1) a POA defender and 2) a consistent 3 point threat. It's really hard to fill that hole with one player and Barrett sticks out like a sore thumb as the one that likely doesn't belong.

And then zooming out long term, we ideally will want Barnes and IQ to increase their usage. Last I checked, when the 3 play together, they have similar usage. The only way to up IQ and Barnes' usage and shot diet is to reduce Barrett's. So you take the ball out of Barrett's hands, minimizing his self creation which is the best asset he brings to the table. Now you have a lower usage, off ball player who has been a poor shooter over his career so far and can't fill the major need on the defensive side. And you're paying the guy $25m-$30m for it. This is where I get stuck. It just feels like you can use that money and roster spot in a more complementary manner. Now you may push back on the notion that IQ and Barnes deserve a higher offensive load, but i'd argue if you don't believe these 2 guys can become that, we're probably not building toward anything worthwhile with them.

[aminiaturebuddha]

One thing about these mostly meaningless games that I noticed is that I love how into the game action Scottie is. He's up on his feet almost every second play, encouraging and cheering on his teammates.

Obviously it would be better for him to be in there playing with them right now, but I think he's a smart enough basketball player that he's learning more about his new teammates' abilities and tendencies just by watching. Even that should help with on court team chemistry next season.

[JB7]

The issue most have with RJ is his fit around an IQ/Scottie core. He doesn’t space it and he’s a subpar defender. I’d love to be proven wrong though, he’s a competitor and I love everything he represents.

Slashing also creates space, and in some ways is a bigger need for this team than 3pt shooting. Barnes and IQ need smart players around them that make the right play, and so far in Toronto, RJ has been doing that. Further, it's not like he is a terrible 3pt shooter. He's shoots slightly below average 3pt percentages on his career, and in 2020/2021 shot above 40% for the season. He's doing that again right now.

I understand it in the context of our roster today when it comes to the offense. I'll also cede that it's been hard for me to let go of my biases when it comes to Barrett. With that said:

The defensive end still presents a major challenge. Ideally, you want Barnes roaming on defense and even if we have him cover wings, we've seen enough to know he just isn't well suited to defend the point of attack consistently. IQ isn't going to be able to do it either. Given Barrett isn't a great defender, you also don't want him guarding the lead guard. So with IQ/Barrett/Barnes/Poeltl slotted in, you have 2 major holes: 1) a POA defender and 2) a consistent 3 point threat. It's really hard to fill that hole with one player and Barrett sticks out like a sore thumb as the one that likely doesn't belong.

And then zooming out long term, we ideally will want Barnes and IQ to increase their usage. Last I checked, when the 3 play together, they have similar usage. The only way to up IQ and Barnes' usage and shot diet is to reduce Barrett's. So you take the ball out of Barrett's hands, minimizing his self creation which is the best asset he brings to the table. Now you have a lower usage, off ball player who has been a poor shooter over his career so far and can't fill the major need on the defensive side. And you're paying the guy $25m-$30m for it. This is where I get stuck. It just feels like you can use that money and roster spot in a more complementary manner. Now you may push back on the notion that IQ and Barnes deserve a higher offensive load, but i'd argue if you don't believe these 2 guys can become that, we're probably not building toward anything worthwhile with them.

I actually think a cheap option via trade (in terms of what assets are being moved) could be Wiggins, that would solve both of those holes, and be a great fit in the starting lineup with Yak, Barnes, RJ &IQ.

With how Klay has performed lately, I think they'll resign him, which means they will probably be looking to dumb Wiggins contract. So Raps may just need to absorb his contract, which they could do by not picking up BB's option, and letting GTJ walk.

Wiggins is a good POA defender, and while on GSW has developed into a more consistent 3pt threat on decent volume. Prior to this season, he was hitting close to 40% on 5-6 attempts per game.

They could also try to go after TM3, but that will cost a lot more assets.

In that starting line, RJ's ability to drive becomes much more valuable.

[dagger]

Read on Twitter

We got another young all-star to pair with Scottie.
RJ might just end up being another...

OG trade was a home run there's no denying that....even the haters on here won't deny it.

Nah haters will find something else to complain about. Quickly was obviously the main target and getting RJ was a bonus.

RJ's development also demonstrates that talent is sometimes a question of fit, not just athleticism or skills. Physically, he is the same guy, but he no longer has to defer to Brunson or Randle with their really high usage rates. He's a better fit here, with a chance to become a pillar with IQ and Scottie of the next Raptors playoff team. But he has to pull up his defensive socks, he really could be a great two-way player.

[LoveMyRaps]

Read on Twitter

We got another young all-star to pair with Scottie.
RJ might just end up being another...

OG trade was a home run there's no denying that....even the haters on here won't deny it.

Oh there's definitely some people here that will hate on it regardless.

[Pointgod]

7 of his 9 made FGs were layups and 1 dunk, he was cutting to the basket, or driving against a bad defender. There is nothing expansive about his offence. His offensive game is very limited, this is just irrefutable fact, shot charts exist. He has a game, that vs good defensive teams/in the playoffs, is easy to shut down. He needs a mid range shot, or a very good 3pt shot.

Right. So you didn't watch the game and instead based your opinion on shot charts. Got it.

Right. So you have no argument. Got it.

7 of his 9 made FGs were layups and 1 dunk, he was cutting to the basket, or driving against a bad defender. There is nothing expansive about his offence. His offensive game is very limited, this is just irrefutable fact, shot charts exist. He has a game, that vs good defensive teams/in the playoffs, is easy to shut down. He needs a mid range shot, or a very good 3pt shot.

There's nothing wrong with having a limited game as long as he can be effective. Dude can be a #2-3 scorer on the team. What he needs to work on is his all-round shooting, but at the moment, being a situational catch and shooter is fine too.

If you look back at the Knicks board, they were complaining last playoffs on how Randle was outperformed by RJ.

Randle (28 years old)
vs CLE: 14.4 PPG 33.8 FG%, 23.5 3P%
vs Miami: 18.8 PPG 41.1 FG%, 28.1 3P%

RJ (23 years old)
vs CLE: 17.4 PPG 44.1 FG%, 25 3P%
vs Miami: 20.8 PPG 42.7 FG% 37.8 3P%

Both Cleveland and Miami have very good defenses. Keep in mind that his shot selection and the Knick's situation wasn't great for him to begin with. Quickley also struggled much more than either RJ/Randle, and he was going against bench players.

You don't need every core piece to be perfect. Pretty much every player on our roster has some major limitations for their respective positions/roles. Core pieces can also still be traded, happens all the time.

If he maintained or goes back to his shot selection and style of play during the Knicks, then we'd have a major problem in terms of his fit and usefulness.

Yeah, he could even be a #1 option, the point is what kind of team has him as a #1/2/3 option. Maybe he could be a solid #2, if we had a fantastic #1 offensive player, but we don't. So any team that has him as the 2nd option, is not going to be a particularly good team.

Ideally you’re in good shape if RJ is a fourth option. 3rd if you have an all time great 1st option like Luka, Jokic or Curry. He has to develop a consistent 3 pointer or else he becomes easy to defend in the playoffs. Woupd love to see him mature into a creator and playmaker like Derozan has in his later years, that would make him valuable even if his outside shot is not consistent.

[Scase]

Yeah, he could even be a #1 option, the point is what kind of team has him as a #1/2/3 option. Maybe he could be a solid #2, if we had a fantastic #1 offensive player, but we don't. So any team that has him as the 2nd option, is not going to be a particularly good team.

Kind of depends on the make-up of the team. On the Raps, it's not that clear cut. On-ball usage is spread out between Quickley/Scottie/RJ.

For Miami, his PPG is around the same as Butler/Bam, but on that team, him being either 2 or 3 on offense wouldn't be that clear cut either as the usage would likely be spread out and Bam's value is more so on the defensive end. Same thing with Orlando, Wagner's more so of a two way player and not exactly a clear cut #2 on O. He can also be a 2 on Cleveland as Garland is fairly inconsistent offensively.

On other playoff teams, he'd be more of a clear cut 3rd offensive option (assuming he replaces guys like Jaylen Brown, Khris Middleton, McDaniels, Michael Porter Jr, Harden, Tim Hardaway Jr., Beal, etc.)

But that's essentially his role in the league. If the Raptors are to succeed with this core, they need to have a spread out offense while being a top defensive team (Cleveland, Miami, Orlando). Either that or Scottie needs to enter the upper echelon of offensive all-stars, which I think is unlikely.

As of now, we really only have three plus defenders in our main, near-future rotation (Poeltl, Scottie, Ochai) while the rest are average to below average (IQ, RJ, Gradey, GTJr, Olynyk)

PPG matching Jimmy means absolutely nothing, Jimmy is a different tier of player and is a true #1 option. He has always turned it up when needed, but I wouldn't compare them either. Bam is a much better comparison, and honestly if you were to replace Bam with RJ, they definitely do not have the same level of success. Bam is way more efficient and puts up better numbers overall while playing WAY better defence.

The wagner comparison is also not a bad one, but again, that team is where they are because of defence, you replace him with RJ and they don't do as well. Same thing with Cleveland.

You can live with a sub-optimal 2nd option if you have really good defence to back it up, and even then, I don't see ORL getting too far unless Paolo takes another step. CLE has pretty much already shown to not be working out considering Mitchell is looking to get out.

I'm not saying a team will be bad with RJ as a second option, but rather it dramatically limits their ceiling, 1st/2nd round exit at best. Unless your first option is top tier, you can't have "ok" second options. And as much as I love Scottie, I don't see him being a top tier offensive option.

This is why I see RJ as a stop gap until something better comes along, no hate on him, it's just a limitation as a player. I would happily be proven wrong and see him pull out a 3pt shot and/or a real solid middy in the next year or two, I just think that is an unrealistic expectation.

[Scase]

The issue most have with RJ is his fit around an IQ/Scottie core. He doesn’t space it and he’s a subpar defender. I’d love to be proven wrong though, he’s a competitor and I love everything he represents.

Slashing also creates space, and in some ways is a bigger need for this team than 3pt shooting. Barnes and IQ need smart players around them that make the right play, and so far in Toronto, RJ has been doing that. Further, it's not like he is a terrible 3pt shooter. He's shoots slightly below average 3pt percentages on his career, and in 2020/2021 shot above 40% for the season. He's doing that again right now.

I understand it in the context of our roster today when it comes to the offense. I'll also cede that it's been hard for me to let go of my biases when it comes to Barrett. With that said:

The defensive end still presents a major challenge. Ideally, you want Barnes roaming on defense and even if we have him cover wings, we've seen enough to know he just isn't well suited to defend the point of attack consistently. IQ isn't going to be able to do it either. Given Barrett isn't a great defender, you also don't want him guarding the lead guard. So with IQ/Barrett/Barnes/Poeltl slotted in, you have 2 major holes: 1) a POA defender and 2) a consistent 3 point threat. It's really hard to fill that hole with one player and Barrett sticks out like a sore thumb as the one that likely doesn't belong.

And then zooming out long term, we ideally will want Barnes and IQ to increase their usage. Last I checked, when the 3 play together, they have similar usage. The only way to up IQ and Barnes' usage and shot diet is to reduce Barrett's. So you take the ball out of Barrett's hands, minimizing his self creation which is the best asset he brings to the table. Now you have a lower usage, off ball player who has been a poor shooter over his career so far and can't fill the major need on the defensive side. And you're paying the guy $25m-$30m for it. This is where I get stuck. It just feels like you can use that money and roster spot in a more complementary manner. Now you may push back on the notion that IQ and Barnes deserve a higher offensive load, but i'd argue if you don't believe these 2 guys can become that, we're probably not building toward anything worthwhile with them.

This is exactly how I feel, after all the talk about "fit" for the last couple years, it's crazy people STILL don't see the issues. RJ unless he can alter his game pretty drastically (unlikely) just doesn't fit the team well enough to justify 15+ FGA. This is why IQ was the focal point of the trade, his game fits, he shores up a spot the team had a huge gap in.

RJ looked like a reclamation project, put him in an offence where he looks better than he actually is, and flip him for something the team needs in the future.

This is all dependent on him evolving his game, if he can, great he can find a fit. If it stays how he's played the last 5 years, I don't see him here for too long.

[Scase]

Right. So you have no argument. Got it.

I only stated that RJ had a good game and effected the outcome in several different ways. This was in response to you calling out another poster saying this wasn't a good game to complement RJ. You retorted by pointing to his shot chat and making a non-sequitar about how easily his game will be shut down in the playoffs.

It is you that have failed to make a meaningful argument and while doing so clearly demonstrated that you didn't even watch the game.

I pointed out how his game is clearly limited and easy to shut down, which is WHY he is likely not a long term keeper on this team. I suggested this game was a bad one to make the statement after as it wasn't a great game, rather just an alright game.

He put up inefficient numbers, all his made shots came from the same place on the court, and he turned it over 6 times. It is not a non-sequitur because you don't understand the very basic connection.

People say he's not in the long term plans because his game is very limited.
A statement is made of when will people stop saying that.
It is posted after a game where he plays alright, and his entire game is the usual limited offence.
So I say this is not the best game to make the statement.

It's pretty damn straight forward.

Not understanding the connection doesn't make it a non-sequitur.

[raps14]

I think the core is looking pretty good. Scottie, IQ and Barrett are a good trio and RJ can take over when needed. Jak and Kelly are serviceable big men that can pass. Dick will continue to get better and Ochai needs to really work on his 3s to be that 3 and D guy. Trent is a bit of a wild card, don't know how he fits on this team. Seems he wants to be a starter but ideally he's a 6th man. In the draft we need a backup PG and some shooters and another big. Our defensive scheme in the offseason needs to be completely overhauled and worked on, get rid of Delaney