WOJ: Raps get Olynyk & Agbaji for 24' 1st Rd Pick, Otto Porter, Kira Lewis

[YogurtProducer]

Masai loves these “all defence, no offence” type players but the amount of them that actually pan out are very few. They’re usually out of the league after they leave here.

It's worth the risk though. At least with a defensive prospect, you have the chance of developing a 3 point shot which allows them to become a useful 3 + D player & possible starter.

I'd take a chance on a player like that over an offensive player who is a terrible defender. I don't think I have ever seen a poor defender turn into a good one.......but I have seen a poor shooter turn into a good shooter.

Funny how we just ignore that OG and Siakam were those guys that panned out.

Those guys are both about to get the max - almost like 6’8 guys who are two-way players have value.

[deeps6x]

In what way? Are you seeing some upside in Ochai as a mini wing who can't shoot? Or Kelly Olynyk who we could have signed in free agency.

We burned a 29 pick which could have been used in a trade up in the draft or to select a prospect.

I am fairly certain we can replace Ochai's value in this draft. He basically is Stanley Johnson redux. Not really sure where the win is other than to committing to two average players.

Reality is Agabji is already better than the average 29th pick and has just as much upside as anyone selected there.

I would like a prospect who is bigger and has some skill finishing or shooting. Ryan Dunn could replace Ochai's defense or Tristan Silva has an all-around game. Even back up PG like KJ Simpson is a bigger need than Ochai.

We have had guys like Stanley Johnson, Landry Fields, Rasual Butler - these guys who get the yips playing pro ball. I don't know if Ochai ever gets over his nerves, but he looks nervous out there.

I don't think Ryan Dunn or Tristan da Silva will still be available at #29. And I sure hope we are drafting a better back up PG then KJ Simpson.

Plus, everyone seems to be ignoring the financial reasons why they took KO with this trade, and why they extended him before the end of the season.

[Tripod]

Adding 2 rotational players for pick 29 allows the Raps to go with a more riskier prospect if they so choose with one of their other picks.

And Ochai still has upside so let's see where he ends up. His defense vs guards will be valuable so Barnes isn't wasting energy doing that and so that IQ isn't getting burned doing it. As is, he can be the bench guy doing that. If his 3 gets getter, he can play with the starters more.

[Dalek]

Reality is Agabji is already better than the average 29th pick and has just as much upside as anyone selected there.

I would like a prospect who is bigger and has some skill finishing or shooting. Ryan Dunn could replace Ochai's defense or Tristan Silva has an all-around game. Even back up PG like KJ Simpson is a bigger need than Ochai.

We have had guys like Stanley Johnson, Landry Fields, Rasual Butler - these guys who get the yips playing pro ball. I don't know if Ochai ever gets over his nerves, but he looks nervous out there.

I don't think Ryan Dunn or Tristan da Silva will still be available at #29. And I sure hope we are drafting a better back up PG then KJ Simpson.

Plus, everyone seems to be ignoring the financial reasons why they took KO with this trade, and why they extended him before the end of the season.

You have to explain KO to me because I don't get it. He is soon to be 34 and is a negative defender and doesn't fit our timeline. I just don't get the move given his limitations. He is a guy for a playoff type team to add not a rebuild.

[Chandan]

I would like a prospect who is bigger and has some skill finishing or shooting. Ryan Dunn could replace Ochai's defense or Tristan Silva has an all-around game. Even back up PG like KJ Simpson is a bigger need than Ochai.

We have had guys like Stanley Johnson, Landry Fields, Rasual Butler - these guys who get the yips playing pro ball. I don't know if Ochai ever gets over his nerves, but he looks nervous out there.

I don't think Ryan Dunn or Tristan da Silva will still be available at #29. And I sure hope we are drafting a better back up PG then KJ Simpson.

Plus, everyone seems to be ignoring the financial reasons why they took KO with this trade, and why they extended him before the end of the season.

You have to explain KO to me because I don't get it. He is soon to be 34 and is a negative defender and doesn't fit our timeline. I just don't get the move given his limitations. He is a guy for a playoff type team to add not a rebuild.

He's a glue guy. His effectiveness can't be measured by any metric.

[ForeverTFC]

I would like a prospect who is bigger and has some skill finishing or shooting. Ryan Dunn could replace Ochai's defense or Tristan Silva has an all-around game. Even back up PG like KJ Simpson is a bigger need than Ochai.

We have had guys like Stanley Johnson, Landry Fields, Rasual Butler - these guys who get the yips playing pro ball. I don't know if Ochai ever gets over his nerves, but he looks nervous out there.

I don't think Ryan Dunn or Tristan da Silva will still be available at #29. And I sure hope we are drafting a better back up PG then KJ Simpson.

Plus, everyone seems to be ignoring the financial reasons why they took KO with this trade, and why they extended him before the end of the season.

You have to explain KO to me because I don't get it. He is soon to be 34 and is a negative defender and doesn't fit our timeline. I just don't get the move given his limitations. He is a guy for a playoff type team to add not a rebuild.

They're trying to teach a very specific offensive system to a group of young players and build good habits and a foundation. Kelly's skillset is hard to find in a big, yet is a seamless fit for the offense. They will continue to look for it in someone that fits the timeline, but that will take time. Kelly allows them to upskill everyone in the offense until they find that guy. Without his skillset, they delay the development of everyone else on the team. From a roster standpoint, Kelly is an investment in their core. He probably doesn't change the short term equation all that much in terms of wins either, so it doesn't put short term wins in front of long term development.

From a cap standpoint, they can now go into the season with essentially an MLE signing already done. Yes, in the event that they open up cap room, they could have signed him into it. And if they operate above the cap, they could have given him the MLE regardless. However, now If they decide to operate above the cap, they essentially created a second MLE slot by extending the outgoing salary through the next 2 seasons. And if they go the cap space route, signing Kelly allows them to delay denouncing any cap holds until they find a move they like. In general, it allows them to make the best move available to them, whether it be a trade for Brown or waiving Brown and re-singing, denouncing, or sign and trading Gary, knowing they already have their FA target under contract and are under no time pressure to make the moves.

They essentially paid the price of a 2nd round talent in any other draft to 1) invest in their core and offensive system 2) create cap flexibility and 3) take a flyer on a former lottery pick who a year ago was deemed untouchable by the Jazz. I still don't understand how anyone doesn't see this as a win. Jazz fans think we robbed them.

[Chandan]

They're trying to teach a very specific offensive system to a group of young players and build good habits and a foundation. Kelly's skillset is hard to find in a big, yet is a seamless fit for the offense.

That's certainly an another way to say we want a stretch big that he's the only one we can get our hands on. KO isn't some special player (isn't and never was) and certainly not a seamless fit for anything in this league.

If it's as you said KO skill set is hard to find in a big, then why exactly would you want your players to form habits that comes from playing with this rare breed of player? What if they can't find another Kelly? It's like you train Bruce Brown to only play effectively alongside Jokic, then you take away Jokic, and you are left with a raptors Bruce Brown.

[Scase]

Ochai is a good defender who has great raw athleticism. His shot WAS improving year over year up until this last year where it tanked.

If he can regain any bit of his shot, he'll be a solid rotation guy.

He's only been in the league 2 years, and it's gone down since his rookie year 35.5% -> 29.4%. Unless you are counting his college stats?

[Scase]

I would like a prospect who is bigger and has some skill finishing or shooting. Ryan Dunn could replace Ochai's defense or Tristan Silva has an all-around game. Even back up PG like KJ Simpson is a bigger need than Ochai.

We have had guys like Stanley Johnson, Landry Fields, Rasual Butler - these guys who get the yips playing pro ball. I don't know if Ochai ever gets over his nerves, but he looks nervous out there.

I don't think Ryan Dunn or Tristan da Silva will still be available at #29. And I sure hope we are drafting a better back up PG then KJ Simpson.

Plus, everyone seems to be ignoring the financial reasons why they took KO with this trade, and why they extended him before the end of the season.

You have to explain KO to me because I don't get it. He is soon to be 34 and is a negative defender and doesn't fit our timeline. I just don't get the move given his limitations. He is a guy for a playoff type team to add not a rebuild.

I think the idea was to finally get a stretch "C", see how Scottie and the team can play with a C that can hit a 3 before putting effort into drafting/trading for one.

In theory it makes sense I guess.

[Duffman100]

Ochai is a good defender who has great raw athleticism. His shot WAS improving year over year up until this last year where it tanked.

If he can regain any bit of his shot, he'll be a solid rotation guy.

He's only been in the league 2 years, and it's gone down since his rookie year 35.5% -> 29.4%. Unless you are counting his college stats?

I am counting his college stats because they did improve over his 4 years.

His 3P% climbed from 30% to 40%, his FT went from 69 to 74%.

His first year NBA 3p% was 35% (fair, reaction to distance change) and his FT% was 81%.

So there is clear and tangible improvement. This year 33% and 66% (worse than any college year).

This year coming up is a big year for him

[Scase]

Ochai is a good defender who has great raw athleticism. His shot WAS improving year over year up until this last year where it tanked.

If he can regain any bit of his shot, he'll be a solid rotation guy.

He's only been in the league 2 years, and it's gone down since his rookie year 35.5% -> 29.4%. Unless you are counting his college stats?

I am counting his college stats because they did improve over his 4 years.

His 3P% climbed from 30% to 40%, his FT went from 69 to 74%.

His first year NBA 3p% was 35% (fair, reaction to distance change) and his FT% was 81%.

So there is clear and tangible improvement. This year 33% and 66% (worse than any college year).

This year coming up is a big year for him

My concern about him is less about the % changes, and more about the fact that he can only reliably hit a 3 at an above average rate from 1 spot on the entire floor. He better be is the gym putting up 1000 3's a day this summer, cause right now, his defence does not make up for being utterly useless on offence.

[Duffman100]

He's only been in the league 2 years, and it's gone down since his rookie year 35.5% -> 29.4%. Unless you are counting his college stats?

I am counting his college stats because they did improve over his 4 years.

His 3P% climbed from 30% to 40%, his FT went from 69 to 74%.

His first year NBA 3p% was 35% (fair, reaction to distance change) and his FT% was 81%.

So there is clear and tangible improvement. This year 33% and 66% (worse than any college year).

This year coming up is a big year for him

My concern about him is less about the % changes, and more about the fact that he can only reliably hit a 3 at an above average rate from 1 spot on the entire floor. He better be is the gym putting up 1000 3's a day this summer, cause right now, his defence does not make up for being utterly useless on offence.

Do we know if it was the same thing in College?

[OakleyDokely]

It's hard to evaluate anyone properly over the last month of the season with so many guys out. Ochai isn't a starting caliber player capable of high usage like he was being used with so many guys out.

When everyone is healthy, he should be a 15-20 minute guy, a 8th/9th man, who defends the other teams offensive guards, hits a 3 or two and gets a couple baskets off transition or rebounds.

The Raps need to get back to the point where they're 10-11 deep with NBA caliber players and hopefully he can be one of those guys.

[Scase]

I am counting his college stats because they did improve over his 4 years.

His 3P% climbed from 30% to 40%, his FT went from 69 to 74%.

His first year NBA 3p% was 35% (fair, reaction to distance change) and his FT% was 81%.

So there is clear and tangible improvement. This year 33% and 66% (worse than any college year).

This year coming up is a big year for him

My concern about him is less about the % changes, and more about the fact that he can only reliably hit a 3 at an above average rate from 1 spot on the entire floor. He better be is the gym putting up 1000 3's a day this summer, cause right now, his defence does not make up for being utterly useless on offence.

Do we know if it was the same thing in College?

I looked but couldn't find any websites that track NCAA shot charts sadly. I would imagine he would fare better from different places in NCAA since the 3 is closer, but likely the same ratio.

EDIT : CBB tracks them, but I ain't paying 40USD/mo for Ochai college shot charts

[Dalek]

I don't think Ryan Dunn or Tristan da Silva will still be available at #29. And I sure hope we are drafting a better back up PG then KJ Simpson.

Plus, everyone seems to be ignoring the financial reasons why they took KO with this trade, and why they extended him before the end of the season.

You have to explain KO to me because I don't get it. He is soon to be 34 and is a negative defender and doesn't fit our timeline. I just don't get the move given his limitations. He is a guy for a playoff type team to add not a rebuild.

I think the idea was to finally get a stretch "C", see how Scottie and the team can play with a C that can hit a 3 before putting effort into drafting/trading for one.

In theory it makes sense I guess.

I get the need for a stretch C, but Kelly in a real starting role makes no sense with Poeltl. You can't play both together, and Scottie will only play limited minutes with bench players. To me, it is like another kick at the Thad Young can. Just an old head that they burned a pick to get when they could have signed him for free in the offseason.

[Dalek]

It's hard to evaluate anyone properly over the last month of the season with so many guys out. Ochai isn't a starting caliber player capable of high usage like he was being used with so many guys out.

When everyone is healthy, he should be a 15-20 minute guy, a 8th/9th man, who defends the other teams offensive guards, hits a 3 or two and gets a couple baskets off transition or rebounds.

The Raps need to get back to the point where they're 10-11 deep with NBA caliber players and hopefully he can be one of those guys.

Ochai may be built like a truck, but he is always going to be 6'5 with a 6'10 wingspan, so he can only guard 1s and 2s. His offense is never going to have more than a straight line drive, or any type of off the dribble shooting. The issue is he is a 3 and D forward in a guard's body. The equivalent archetype is Lu Dort which is a pretty unique player.

[Duffman100]

It's hard to evaluate anyone properly over the last month of the season with so many guys out. Ochai isn't a starting caliber player capable of high usage like he was being used with so many guys out.

When everyone is healthy, he should be a 15-20 minute guy, a 8th/9th man, who defends the other teams offensive guards, hits a 3 or two and gets a couple baskets off transition or rebounds.

The Raps need to get back to the point where they're 10-11 deep with NBA caliber players and hopefully he can be one of those guys.

Ochai may be built like a truck, but he is always going to be 6'5 with a 6'10 wingspan, so he can only guard 1s and 2s. His offense is never going to have more than a straight line drive, or any type of off the dribble shooting. The issue is he is a 3 and D forward in a guard's body. The equivalent archetype is Lu Dort which is a pretty unique player.

In the modern NBA he can easily guard 3s and potential small ball 4s.

[DreamTeam09]

They're trying to teach a very specific offensive system to a group of young players and build good habits and a foundation. Kelly's skillset is hard to find in a big, yet is a seamless fit for the offense.

That's certainly an another way to say we want a stretch big that he's the only one we can get our hands on. KO isn't some special player (isn't and never was) and certainly not a seamless fit for anything in this league.

If it's as you said KO skill set is hard to find in a big, then why exactly would you want your players to form habits that comes from playing with this rare breed of player? What if they can't find another Kelly? It's like you train Bruce Brown to only play effectively alongside Jokic, then you take away Jokic, and you are left with a raptors Bruce Brown.

Yes we brought in Kelly to be a stretch big to pair with barnes to see how he would look with a stretch big, because in theory the lanes should be open up more.
So we found one in the midterm until we are able to find one long term.
Stretch bigs aren't really rare, but they're not available regularly either, and if one cost you OPJ & a late late first in return with a former lottery pick, then you take that time & time again...

If you think Kelly is supposed to be "Cherry on Top" well it's still okay or good to get all or some of your ingredients before your finish baking. It's hard to envision how the cake will look with a cherry without actually having the cherry sometimes...

[DreamTeam09]

It's hard to evaluate anyone properly over the last month of the season with so many guys out. Ochai isn't a starting caliber player capable of high usage like he was being used with so many guys out.

When everyone is healthy, he should be a 15-20 minute guy, a 8th/9th man, who defends the other teams offensive guards, hits a 3 or two and gets a couple baskets off transition or rebounds.

The Raps need to get back to the point where they're 10-11 deep with NBA caliber players and hopefully he can be one of those guys.

Ochai may be built like a truck, but he is always going to be 6'5 with a 6'10 wingspan, so he can only guard 1s and 2s. His offense is never going to have more than a straight line drive, or any type of off the dribble shooting. The issue is he is a 3 and D forward in a guard's body. The equivalent archetype is Lu Dort which is a pretty unique player.

In the modern NBA he can easily guard 3s and potential small ball 4s.

lol like ppl aren't even trying with their rebuttals. As if every SF is built like LBJ/KD/Giannis - As if Ochai is on Josh giddey/Kelly Oubre/Brandon Miller, we better call a timeout to get him off that mismatch lol lol

why do ppl speak in absolutes' like that, it's noteven good discourse which should be the premise of a raptor forum. It's my fault, ppl use this to vent their frustrations, I just gotta read every post with that in mind.

[Scase]

You have to explain KO to me because I don't get it. He is soon to be 34 and is a negative defender and doesn't fit our timeline. I just don't get the move given his limitations. He is a guy for a playoff type team to add not a rebuild.

I think the idea was to finally get a stretch "C", see how Scottie and the team can play with a C that can hit a 3 before putting effort into drafting/trading for one.

In theory it makes sense I guess.

I get the need for a stretch C, but Kelly in a real starting role makes no sense with Poeltl. You can't play both together, and Scottie will only play limited minutes with bench players. To me, it is like another kick at the Thad Young can. Just an old head that they burned a pick to get when they could have signed him for free in the offseason.

I agree completely, the trade has sound reasoning, but it's still a net neutral at best. I would rather have kept the pick, signed KO as a UFA which would have been pretty likely had we come calling, and packaged that pick with BB to get something better.

I just see the trade as a waste of money, Ochai is going to make more than someone at his draft spot is worth, and KO we paid him top dollar for no real reason. I'm just happy that for once we didn't give him a PO for once.