Official NBA General Discussion 2023-24 V2.0

[MiamiSPX]

It's pretty much impossible to win in the NBA when your best player is a small guard not named Steph Curry. Knicks need to swap Randle for a first option wing/big before they even become fake contenders.

I said the same a few weeks ago. It's an extremely short list of teams that have won whose best player is an undersized guard. And the ones that did were generational talents, no doubt about it Hall of Famers. One of the refs in Game 1 was bigger than Brunson. Not bashing him at all, the guy is a bulldog and full credit to him for what he has become. But unfortunately, that unchangeable limitation is a thing.

They have the role player pieces who play huge and have the clutch gene. Josh Hart, OG, Donte. They’re hardcore. The pistons comparison is apt. They’re arguably better with Randle missing since they don’t have a poor defender who can be attacked, Brunson’s size differential aside. Thibs knows what he’s doing and he finally has decent personnel. OG is huge for them.

The Pistons comparison is what fans invoke to try and convince themselves their team can win without a top 10 player. We did the same many years ago when we had DD/Kyle leading us. They are the exception to the rule and of course it will eventually happen again but it won't be a team whose best player is a tiny guard. Not only did the rest of the last 30 title winners have a top 10 player at that time, almost all of them had a player (or 2-3) that are arguably among the top 100 players of all time.

We should also note that those Pistons did have 2 guys who ended up in the Hall of Fame (and I will insist Rasheed was better than both of them and would have been a HoFer if not for being a hothead, and pothead). These Knicks do not have anyone that will be in the Hall of Fame.

Having said all that, I don't dispute the rest of your post. Hart and Donte are absolute dogs, and I don't mind their swagger because they get after it at both ends. OG is OG, the only reason I think his contract will be brutal is because of how injury prone he is. And I also agree that they are better off without Randle. We've seen how embarrassingly bad he can be in the playoffs and right now he would be trying to do too much while Brunson is struggling.

[ArthurVandelay]

alot of former Raptors are looking good in the playoffs

The front office likes to talk about culture, and how the culture failed the team. I wonder if they’ve looked at themselves to see how they failed in building culture. The way Siakam was treated by this organization since the bubble was not okay. He deserved better. He looks like he’s playing with less pressure in Indy. Happy for him. Wish it coulda happened here.

It’s like watching your ex who you didn’t appreciate have a happy relationship somewhere else…while you’re still swiping on Tinder trying to find someone with a half decent personality.

The culture around Toronto was always to get paid. That started with Kyle and DeMar. They made no bones about that. They loved Toronto and wanted to stay, but they also wanted to maximize their earnings at the same time. And that is not a knock on them, I'm sure I'd want top dollar too.

I think once the championship was won, that culture and desire to get the bag, became the only focus for the championship guys because they already have a ring.

Masai is complicit in this too. He has said numerous times he wants to look after the players and used getting the bag as motivation for them to do well.

I'm not intending to lay individual blame here. It's just once they had the rings, imo, contracts took priority over everything else.

Everyone needs to recognize that when you win, everyone will get paid...by Toronto or another team. Stop worrying about contracts and stats, focus on contributing to winning and you'll get paid. That is the culture they need to bring back.

[MoneyBall]

Dame and Pascal should have just teamed up in TO, would have been over

I'm not trading 10 years of Scottie for two years of pretender status.

[WaltFrazier]

I said the same a few weeks ago. It's an extremely short list of teams that have won whose best player is an undersized guard. And the ones that did were generational talents, no doubt about it Hall of Famers. One of the refs in Game 1 was bigger than Brunson. Not bashing him at all, the guy is a bulldog and full credit to him for what he has become. But unfortunately, that unchangeable limitation is a thing.

They have the role player pieces who play huge and have the clutch gene. Josh Hart, OG, Donte. They’re hardcore. The pistons comparison is apt. They’re arguably better with Randle missing since they don’t have a poor defender who can be attacked, Brunson’s size differential aside. Thibs knows what he’s doing and he finally has decent personnel. OG is huge for them.

The Pistons comparison is what fans invoke to try and convince themselves their team can win without a top 10 player. We did the same many years ago when we had DD/Kyle leading us. They are the exception to the rule and of course it will eventually happen again but it won't be a team whose best player is a tiny guard. Not only did the rest of the last 30 title winners have a top 10 player at that time, almost all of them had a player (or 2-3) that are arguably among the top 100 players of all time.

We should also note that those Pistons did have 2 guys who ended up in the Hall of Fame (and I will insist Rasheed was better than both of them and would have been a HoFer if not for being a hothead, and pothead). These Knicks do not have anyone that will be in the Hall of Fame.

Having said all that, I don't dispute the rest of your post. Hart and Donte are absolute dogs, and I don't mind their swagger because they get after it at both ends. OG is OG, the only reason I think his contract will be brutal is because of how injury prone he is. And I also agree that they are better off without Randle. We've seen how embarrassingly bad he can be in the playoffs and right now he would be trying to do too much while Brunson is struggling.

Knicks board has some talk of Randle for Kat. Others say add Donovan Mitchell somehow. I've no idea but it seems they have the picks and assets to sign a scorer this summer as well as re-sign OG. Lots of variables of course like most teams. But I think they're in one of the better positions in the league.

[EastonEddy]

Dame and Pascal should have just teamed up in TO, would have been over

I'm not trading 10 years of Scottie for two years of pretender status.

What the ceiling for a Scottie led team with this core? I'd say 2nd round exit max. With Siakam and Dame/KD at least we could get 3-4 seasons of exciting basketball right now instead of spending next 10 years realizing Scottie RJ and Quick ain't those guys to bring us to ECF much less Finals.

[ItsDanger]

alot of former Raptors are looking good in the playoffs

The front office likes to talk about culture, and how the culture failed the team. I wonder if they’ve looked at themselves to see how they failed in building culture. The way Siakam was treated by this organization since the bubble was not okay. He deserved better. He looks like he’s playing with less pressure in Indy. Happy for him. Wish it coulda happened here.

It’s like watching your ex who you didn’t appreciate have a happy relationship somewhere else…while you’re still swiping on Tinder trying to find someone with a half decent personality.

The culture around Toronto was always to get paid. That started with Kyle and DeMar. They made no bones about that. They loved Toronto and wanted to stay, but they also wanted to maximize their earnings at the same time. And that is not a knock on them, I'm sure I'd want top dollar too.

I think once the championship was won, that culture and desire to get the bag, became the only focus for the championship guys because they already have a ring.

Masai is complicit in this too. He has said numerous times he wants to look after the players and used getting the bag as motivation for them to do well.

I'm not intending to lay individual blame here. It's just once they had the rings, imo, contracts took priority over everything else.

Everyone needs to recognize that when you win, everyone will get paid...by Toronto or another team. Stop worrying about contracts and stats, focus on contributing to winning and you'll get paid. That is the culture they need to bring back.

The get your bag culture was prevalent for several years now. Sacrificing for the team wasn't on the agenda for some players. Their contract status became the main focus. It's a lot of money, so tough to blame them but management has a different role in this matter. Got to recognize the issues earlier.

[ArthurVandelay]

Dame and Pascal should have just teamed up in TO, would have been over

I'm not trading 10 years of Scottie for two years of pretender status.

What the ceiling for a Scottie led team with this core? I'd say 2nd round exit max. With Siakam and Dame/KD at least we could get 3-4 seasons of exciting basketball right now instead of spending next 10 years realizing Scottie RJ and Quick ain't those guys to bring us to ECF much less Finals.

Who knows what the ceiling is at this point. No offense meant here but I think that is such a short sighted view. The Raptors are in no position to be thinking about ceilings. They are a team that hit reset less than 4 months ago. The roster is in major transition. These things take time to play out.

I don't think you can make any reasonable estimation of this team's ceiling with Barnes until 2026-2027 at minimum, when he'll be 26. Who knows, at that point he might not even be the best player on the team.

The absolute best case for this team to get back to relevancy is 2 years, imo. Again, it is a little early to be capping future potential 4 months into a rebuild.

[EastonEddy]

I'm not trading 10 years of Scottie for two years of pretender status.

What the ceiling for a Scottie led team with this core? I'd say 2nd round exit max. With Siakam and Dame/KD at least we could get 3-4 seasons of exciting basketball right now instead of spending next 10 years realizing Scottie RJ and Quick ain't those guys to bring us to ECF much less Finals.

Who knows what the ceiling is at this point. No offense meant here but I think that is such a short sighted view. The Raptors are in no position to be thinking about ceilings. They are a team that hit reset less than 4 months ago. The roster is in major transition. These things take time to play out.

I don't think you can make any reasonable estimation of this team's ceiling with Barnes until 2026-2027 at minimum, when he'll be 26. Who knows, at that point he might not even be the best player on the team.

The absolute best case for this team to get back to relevancy is 2 years, imo. Again, it is a little early to be capping future potential 4 months into a rebuild.

I know what you are saying but RJ and IQ are heading into their 6th and 5th seasons respectively (I believe). That ain't young in NBA terms they are closer to what they are than what they could be (of that makes any sense).

Scottie heading into his fourth season stats look nice but I don't see his game translating to being the leader on a good team... Just my opinion.

These aren't first or second year guys. It's ok to be realistic about their potential hence why I am not a big fan of the core.

[ArthurVandelay]

What the ceiling for a Scottie led team with this core? I'd say 2nd round exit max. With Siakam and Dame/KD at least we could get 3-4 seasons of exciting basketball right now instead of spending next 10 years realizing Scottie RJ and Quick ain't those guys to bring us to ECF much less Finals.

Who knows what the ceiling is at this point. No offense meant here but I think that is such a short sighted view. The Raptors are in no position to be thinking about ceilings. They are a team that hit reset less than 4 months ago. The roster is in major transition. These things take time to play out.

I don't think you can make any reasonable estimation of this team's ceiling with Barnes until 2026-2027 at minimum, when he'll be 26. Who knows, at that point he might not even be the best player on the team.

The absolute best case for this team to get back to relevancy is 2 years, imo. Again, it is a little early to be capping future potential 4 months into a rebuild.

I know what you are saying but RJ and IQ are heading into their 6th and 5th seasons respectively (I believe). That ain't young in NBA terms they are closer to what they are than what they could be (of that makes any sense).

Scottie heading into his fourth season stats look nice but I don't see his game translating to being the leader on a good team... Just my opinion.

These aren't first or second year guys. It's ok to be realistic about their potential hence why I am not a big fan of the core.

In 2012-2013 season, DD was 24 and Lowry 27. Those guys were in the league 6 and 8 years before getting to ASG.

Need to see what Masai can do to bring in complimentary pieces and find some draft gold similar to 2015-2017.

Scottie 22/RJ 23/IQ 24. I think those guys are a better starting point than DD/KL.

I still think 2 years is needed before any assumptions can be made about their future. No question Masai has his work cut out.

[Basketball_Jones]

Siakam is playing great with more spacing around him. But a word of caution, the half court game and defense generally reigns supreme in the playoffs. I would be shocked if Indiana goes past first round with this style of play.

[Duffman100]

Siakam is playing great with more spacing around him. But a word of caution, the half court game and defense generally reigns supreme in the playoffs. I would be shocked if Indiana goes past first round with this style of play.

He's also excelling without Giannis there. There isn't really anyone on the Bucks who can guard him.

[mtcan]

The Bucks are a bad defensive team so Pascal getting is no surprise.

Milwaukee is in trouble if Giannis doesn't return by game 4.

[OakleyDokely]

In his last 3 playoff games as a Raptor, Siakam put up 27 PPG on 55% from the field, and this was without a Hali type player by his side. The dude is really good and has always been really good and if he was about 4-5 years younger, he'd still be a Raptor.

[MiamiSPX]

In his last 3 playoff games as a Raptor, Siakam put up 27 PPG on 55% from the field, and this was without a Hali type player by his side. The dude is really good and has always been really good and if he was about 4-5 years younger, he'd still be a Raptor.

Or if he was already locked in at something like 35M per for the next 2-3 years.

[PhilBlackson]

This is why no one outside of Boston believes in Boston winning it all or believed that Tatum was a real MVP candidate.

They just don't perform in close games and for how talented Tatum is, he's just not THAT guy. I just don't see the killer in him like MJ, Kobe, KD and all the superstar level wings.

[Coco Costanza]

This is why no one outside of Boston believes in Boston winning it all or believed that Tatum was a real MVP candidate.

They just don't perform in close games and for how talented Tatum is, he's just not THAT guy. I just don't see the killer in him like MJ, Kobe, KD and all the superstar level wings.

But what can they do to get themselves over the hump? If they end up being just a conference finals team, how easy is that to break up?

[PhilBlackson]

This is why no one outside of Boston believes in Boston winning it all or believed that Tatum was a real MVP candidate.

They just don't perform in close games and for how talented Tatum is, he's just not THAT guy. I just don't see the killer in him like MJ, Kobe, KD and all the superstar level wings.

But what can they do to get themselves over the hump? If they end up being just a conference finals team, how easy is that to break up?

I doubt they will, those guys are only ENTERING their primes, there's still time to do it.

They'll fire/hire coaches, move around the supporting pieces until it flames out due to my guess Brown eventually turning bitter IF they can't get it done. But they still have time and I hate to say it but I don't expect Murray's body to hold up for 3-4 straight title runs without some setbacks if I'm being honest.

Plus franchises don't throw out Finals teams ie/ the Cavs knew they weren't beating GSW with KD but they'll keep running it back because why not?! lol We all want our teams to win championships but I think most people would just be content with being legit contenders year in and year out because there's always a chance as long as you're within reach and especially given health in the new NBA.

[Basketball_Jones]

Boston dropping a game at home against this Heat team is pretty bad imo. Spo is a genius and Tyler is probably making Portland look stupid for passing on him.

[tecumseh18]

Boston dropping a game at home against this Heat team is pretty bad imo. Spo is a genius and Tyler is probably making Portland look stupid for passing on him.

I would so laugh if Miami somehow get past the Celtics without Jimmy, just as they got by them last year without Herro.

I mean, it's not happening, but man it would be funny. Almost as funny as the Sixers crashing out of the playoffs early again.

[PhilBlackson]

Boston dropping a game at home against this Heat team is pretty bad imo. Spo is a genius and Tyler is probably making Portland look stupid for passing on him.

Not really...they got more draft picks in the end and they already have 2 young SGs ie/ Simons (who is actually a very similar player) & Sharpe.