Preparing for some Brown disappointment

[Scase]

Or they would also have his Bird Rights and could sign him to a multi year reasonable contract given his skills. I think MLE-ish (~$15m) would be reasonable. $23m is not reasonable imo.

15mil is not reasonable, on this team. He does not offer anything we need, he is absolutely dead weight on this roster. He is the epitome of a role player/last piece of a team. Not something you sign when you just had the 5th worst season in franchise history, 3rd if you dont count (you shouldnt) the expansion era.

We are not at a point where we need dudes that should be playing 20mpg off the bench for a contender.

I agree, but not what I was suggesting in response to the post from Oakley about a contender.

They = contender/team he is traded to

Ahh I gotchu, my bad I misread!

[Scase]

Read on Twitter

They were "expected" to trade him at the Trade Deadline as well.

You could talk me into thinking that Brown is a trade asset... a contender at or beyond the 2nd apron might want him for a push next year with no strings beyond that... or a young team that wants their cap sheet to stay clean. But both of those "markets" were open at the trade deadline given that Brown only had a Team Option for next season. No one bit (at least to Masai's desired level).

The end result is either us taking even less back than Brown was worth in February... or us eating another year of Brown a la Thad Young (whose option was picked up for almost the same reasons).

Just don't seem to have the balls to cut bait here. I understand asset management but this is not that great of an asset, IMO. I hope I am wrong.

As I stated in the other BB thread :

Masai will pick up his option, fail to trade him due to his constant need to get maximum value, and he will be traded for peanuts at the deadline next year.

Or in this case, trade him for less (a mid 20s FRP in 2024 + fournier who was an expiring/last year team option) than was rumoured last year.

[ForeverTFC]

It’s unguaranteed and at worst an expiring. How is it a bad contract?

It isn't. Just complaining for the sake of it

For the 2nd time in this thread, I was referencing the bad contract list in OP. "Just complaining for the sake of it"? Hmmm.

But most of the contracts on OPs list were never considered good tradable contracts to begin with. And some of them I would argue are not bad contracts even today - a few are even below the MLE. The only real bad contracts on that list that were deemed good and tradable to begin with are Hunter and McCollum and maybe Rui though I think that one is still pretty tradable tbh.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make. What am I missing?

[ForeverTFC]

Read on Twitter

They were "expected" to trade him at the Trade Deadline as well.

You could talk me into thinking that Brown is a trade asset... a contender at or beyond the 2nd apron might want him for a push next year with no strings beyond that... or a young team that wants their cap sheet to stay clean. But both of those "markets" were open at the trade deadline given that Brown only had a Team Option for next season. No one bit (at least to Masai's desired level).

The end result is either us taking even less back than Brown was worth in February... or us eating another year of Brown a la Thad Young (whose option was picked up for almost the same reasons).

Just don't seem to have the balls to cut bait here. I understand asset management but this is not that great of an asset, IMO. I hope I am wrong.

As I stated in the other BB thread :

Masai will pick up his option, fail to trade him due to his constant need to get maximum value, and he will be traded for peanuts at the deadline next year.

Or in this case, trade him for less (a mid 20s FRP in 2024 + fournier who was an expiring/last year team option) than was rumoured last year.

First, I thought the Knicks pulled the Fournier package as they got more value at a lower price.

I believe they can now bundle his salary in trades while they couldn't at the deadline, so there is definitely new deal constructs that are available to them. Also, even if they get a late 1st back trading him this year on draft day, they have the ability to see how the board evolves and be more opportunistic with which pick they grab if there are a few available to them. Finally, knowing that they don't have their own first this year might make them more likely to take on an additional first, whereas at the deadline, they may not have wanted the risk of having 4 picks this year. You're simplifying things way too much.

I do hope they ultimately get some value out of that contract though.

[niQ]

We just received the Doug Smith kiss of death, Brown is going to retire a Raptor

Brown about to have his jersey retired before Vince.

[douggood]

I am of the opinion his cap space would be more valuable than the current contract or his ability/skills.

But maybe that would only be more valuable for teams in the luxury tax.

Regardless, I just hope they get more assets like prospects and picks. Not interested in any vets that raise the floor from bottom 8 to late lotto.

letting brown and trent walk gives us 29 mil cap space + room mle


29 mil cap space + room mle (max 3 yr 25 mil)
or
brown (or whatever he is traded for) + trent (lets say 2 year 40) + standard mle (max 4 year 55)

So teams still get the MLE even if they have cap space? Or do they get the cap space + a small MLE like I think you're stating.

there are 3types of mle
standard, room and tax MLE.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2023/11/mid-level-bi-annual-projections-for-2024-25.html

[ConSarnit]

Would rather just do Brown for Hunter + SAC 2025 FRP. We take on long term salary for an extra 2025 FRP. Atlanta frees up some capspace and they can keep Okongwu as well. Hunter can fill in on the wings until we find a better replacement next year and he's also always injured, which helps the tank next year if we choose to go that route.

If someone offers us an expiring and a lotto pick, even if it’s in a bad draft, we have to take that deal. The odds of us doing better than 12 is slim to none. Brown is not going to do anything for us next year so taking on Ball’s dead salary for next year doesn’t cost us anything. We’d still have Ball’s expiring to try and swing a salary dump.

We all want an extra ‘25 1st but we can’t be turning down a lotto pick for Brown regardless of the quality of the draft.

For sure, if this is on the table, I would do it. I just don't see why Chicago would.

No one knows what Chicago is doing...not even themselves, I'd argue but it seems objectively foolish to use a lottery pick to offload an expiring contract.

Agreed. I don’t know why anyone would give us a lottery pick for Brown unless they are getting off of years of bad salary. Lonzo is at the point where the Bulls are probably hopeful they’ll be able to get a lot of his salary paid out through insurance. In an ideal world I’d say we’d be lucky to get a late 2025 1st for Brown for a team that wants to dump some salary and sees Brown as a useful rotation player.

I think a team is going to have to see Brown as salary dump mechanism AND a way to acquire a solid rotation piece for us to get a 1st. Either/or and we’re probably looking at getting a 2nd back for Brown.

[ConSarnit]

They were "expected" to trade him at the Trade Deadline as well.

You could talk me into thinking that Brown is a trade asset... a contender at or beyond the 2nd apron might want him for a push next year with no strings beyond that... or a young team that wants their cap sheet to stay clean. But both of those "markets" were open at the trade deadline given that Brown only had a Team Option for next season. No one bit (at least to Masai's desired level).

The end result is either us taking even less back than Brown was worth in February... or us eating another year of Brown a la Thad Young (whose option was picked up for almost the same reasons).

Just don't seem to have the balls to cut bait here. I understand asset management but this is not that great of an asset, IMO. I hope I am wrong.

As I stated in the other BB thread :

Masai will pick up his option, fail to trade him due to his constant need to get maximum value, and he will be traded for peanuts at the deadline next year.

Or in this case, trade him for less (a mid 20s FRP in 2024 + fournier who was an expiring/last year team option) than was rumoured last year.

First, I thought the Knicks pulled the Fournier package as they got more value at a lower price.

I believe they can now bundle his salary in trades while they couldn't at the deadline, so there is definitely new deal constructs that are available to them. Also, even if they get a late 1st back trading him this year on draft day, they have the ability to see how the board evolves and be more opportunistic with which pick they grab if there are a few available to them. Finally, knowing that they don't have their own first this year might make them more likely to take on an additional first, whereas at the deadline, they may not have wanted the risk of having 4 picks this year. You're simplifying things way too much.

I do hope they ultimately get some value out of that contract though.

I think an offer could materialize that is of similar value to the Knicks offer dependent on what they do with Bojan (who was acquired instead of Brown). If the Knicks cut Bojan that means they were looking at Brown/Bojan as a rental. If those guys were viewed as rentals it stands to reason that Brown might retain a late 1st value as an expiring (rental) this upcoming season. If the Knicks retain Bojan that probably doesn’t bode well for Brown’s value because it stands to reason that the Knicks were offering a late 1st because they gained 1.5 years of control instead of just renting someone.

Basically, if the Knicks were treating Brown as an expiring rental, then an opted in Brown is still, well, an expiring rental. Maybe that still makes him worth a 1st. Doubtful imo, but who knows.

[Scase]

They were "expected" to trade him at the Trade Deadline as well.

You could talk me into thinking that Brown is a trade asset... a contender at or beyond the 2nd apron might want him for a push next year with no strings beyond that... or a young team that wants their cap sheet to stay clean. But both of those "markets" were open at the trade deadline given that Brown only had a Team Option for next season. No one bit (at least to Masai's desired level).

The end result is either us taking even less back than Brown was worth in February... or us eating another year of Brown a la Thad Young (whose option was picked up for almost the same reasons).

Just don't seem to have the balls to cut bait here. I understand asset management but this is not that great of an asset, IMO. I hope I am wrong.

As I stated in the other BB thread :

Masai will pick up his option, fail to trade him due to his constant need to get maximum value, and he will be traded for peanuts at the deadline next year.

Or in this case, trade him for less (a mid 20s FRP in 2024 + fournier who was an expiring/last year team option) than was rumoured last year.

First, I thought the Knicks pulled the Fournier package as they got more value at a lower price.

I believe they can now bundle his salary in trades while they couldn't at the deadline, so there is definitely new deal constructs that are available to them. Also, even if they get a late 1st back trading him this year on draft day, they have the ability to see how the board evolves and be more opportunistic with which pick they grab if there are a few available to them. Finally, knowing that they don't have their own first this year might make them more likely to take on an additional first, whereas at the deadline, they may not have wanted the risk of having 4 picks this year. You're simplifying things way too much.

I do hope they ultimately get some value out of that contract though.

I'm not simplifying anything. The plan facts of the matter are, that we didn't trade him last year. Because we didn't trade him last year, we are now at a RISK. Last year we trade him and he is gone, or we dont pick up his option. This year we MUST pick up his option if there is any chance for trading him, and if we get crap offers, well now we just wasted 20mil in cap space in a rebuild year where we could be taking back a bad contract for assets, or we settle on a worse return. And then the Siakam return continues to look and perform even worse.

It's just yet another instance of kicking the can down the road, and putting yourself in a riskier situation than need be. FVV/OG/Siakam all over again, with thankfully lower stakes.

[ForeverTFC]

As I stated in the other BB thread :



Or in this case, trade him for less (a mid 20s FRP in 2024 + fournier who was an expiring/last year team option) than was rumoured last year.

First, I thought the Knicks pulled the Fournier package as they got more value at a lower price.

I believe they can now bundle his salary in trades while they couldn't at the deadline, so there is definitely new deal constructs that are available to them. Also, even if they get a late 1st back trading him this year on draft day, they have the ability to see how the board evolves and be more opportunistic with which pick they grab if there are a few available to them. Finally, knowing that they don't have their own first this year might make them more likely to take on an additional first, whereas at the deadline, they may not have wanted the risk of having 4 picks this year. You're simplifying things way too much.

I do hope they ultimately get some value out of that contract though.

I'm not simplifying anything. The plan facts of the matter are, that we didn't trade him last year. Because we didn't trade him last year, we are now at a RISK. Last year we trade him and he is gone, or we dont pick up his option. This year we MUST pick up his option if there is any chance for trading him, and if we get crap offers, well now we just wasted 20mil in cap space in a rebuild year where we could be taking back a bad contract for assets, or we settle on a worse return. And then the Siakam return continues to look and perform even worse.

It's just yet another instance of kicking the can down the road, and putting yourself in a riskier situation than need be. FVV/OG/Siakam all over again, with thankfully lower stakes.

We haven't picked up his option yet. We can explore a trade up to the option date and still drop him if we don't like what we have and decide to go the cap room route.

[Scase]

First, I thought the Knicks pulled the Fournier package as they got more value at a lower price.

I believe they can now bundle his salary in trades while they couldn't at the deadline, so there is definitely new deal constructs that are available to them. Also, even if they get a late 1st back trading him this year on draft day, they have the ability to see how the board evolves and be more opportunistic with which pick they grab if there are a few available to them. Finally, knowing that they don't have their own first this year might make them more likely to take on an additional first, whereas at the deadline, they may not have wanted the risk of having 4 picks this year. You're simplifying things way too much.

I do hope they ultimately get some value out of that contract though.

I'm not simplifying anything. The plan facts of the matter are, that we didn't trade him last year. Because we didn't trade him last year, we are now at a RISK. Last year we trade him and he is gone, or we dont pick up his option. This year we MUST pick up his option if there is any chance for trading him, and if we get crap offers, well now we just wasted 20mil in cap space in a rebuild year where we could be taking back a bad contract for assets, or we settle on a worse return. And then the Siakam return continues to look and perform even worse.

It's just yet another instance of kicking the can down the road, and putting yourself in a riskier situation than need be. FVV/OG/Siakam all over again, with thankfully lower stakes.

We haven't picked up his option yet. We can explore a trade up to the option date and still drop him if we don't like what we have and decide to go the cap room route.

Well obviously, this was based off the rumours of us definitely moving him. The option to let him expire is still there, but how many times has masai just let a player walk, especially one part of a controversial trade?

The ego is just as important as the value of the player.

[Mikistan]

I'm not simplifying anything. The plan facts of the matter are, that we didn't trade him last year. Because we didn't trade him last year, we are now at a RISK. Last year we trade him and he is gone, or we dont pick up his option. This year we MUST pick up his option if there is any chance for trading him, and if we get crap offers, well now we just wasted 20mil in cap space in a rebuild year where we could be taking back a bad contract for assets, or we settle on a worse return. And then the Siakam return continues to look and perform even worse.

It's just yet another instance of kicking the can down the road, and putting yourself in a riskier situation than need be. FVV/OG/Siakam all over again, with thankfully lower stakes.

We haven't picked up his option yet. We can explore a trade up to the option date and still drop him if we don't like what we have and decide to go the cap room route.

Well obviously, this was based off the rumours of us definitely moving him. The option to let him expire is still there, but how many times has masai just let a player walk, especially one part of a controversial trade?

The ego is just as important as the value of the player.

Are you seriously positing this hasn't happened since the chip?

[Basketball_Jones]

I don’t think we have to worry about Masai holding onto Brown too long. His value is low. Many teams would love to have him but certainly don’t care to give up much, so I think we’ll take what we can get.

[Scase]

We haven't picked up his option yet. We can explore a trade up to the option date and still drop him if we don't like what we have and decide to go the cap room route.

Well obviously, this was based off the rumours of us definitely moving him. The option to let him expire is still there, but how many times has masai just let a player walk, especially one part of a controversial trade?

The ego is just as important as the value of the player.

Are you seriously positing this hasn't happened since the chip?

As stupid as the FVV scenario was, it wasn't "intentional" so much as it was gross mismanagement. He doesnt let players walk for nothing as the default option, he gets caught up in stupidity and playing chicken/evaluating. Unless I'm forgetting some other instances? in my defence I have the memory of a 90 year old, so it's possible

[Dyehardrapsfan]

I am of the opinion his cap space would be more valuable than the current contract or his ability/skills.

But maybe that would only be more valuable for teams in the luxury tax.

Regardless, I just hope they get more assets like prospects and picks. Not interested in any vets that raise the floor from bottom 8 to late lotto.

letting brown and trent walk gives us 29 mil cap space + room mle


29 mil cap space + room mle (max 3 yr 25 mil)
or
brown (or whatever he is traded for) + trent (lets say 2 year 40) + standard mle (max 4 year 55)

So teams still get the MLE even if they have cap space? Or do they get the cap space + a small MLE like I think you're stating.

I think it’s the best option, let him go and Trent. Let’s try and sign a free agent or two.

[ArthurVandelay]

letting brown and trent walk gives us 29 mil cap space + room mle


29 mil cap space + room mle (max 3 yr 25 mil)
or
brown (or whatever he is traded for) + trent (lets say 2 year 40) + standard mle (max 4 year 55)

So teams still get the MLE even if they have cap space? Or do they get the cap space + a small MLE like I think you're stating.

I think it’s the best option, let him go and Trent. Let’s try and sign a free agent or two.

I don’t trust Masai with free agency

Much rather see him use cap space to trade

[Tor_Raps]

So teams still get the MLE even if they have cap space? Or do they get the cap space + a small MLE like I think you're stating.

I think it’s the best option, let him go and Trent. Let’s try and sign a free agent or two.

I don’t trust Masai with free agency

Much rather see him use cap space to trade

Ya Masai has been downright horrible with his free agent targets. Brown has too much value to just decline his option and not get anything for him. I would bet my left testicle that's not even an option unless we've tampered with a pending free agent and know we're getting someone better (highly unlikely).

[will]

So teams still get the MLE even if they have cap space? Or do they get the cap space + a small MLE like I think you're stating.

I think it’s the best option, let him go and Trent. Let’s try and sign a free agent or two.

I don’t trust Masai with free agency

Much rather see him use cap space to trade

I cannot think of a single free agent that has made an actual impact for the Raptors under Masai's tenure. Seriously. I'm just going for the bare minimum here.

[MiamiSPX]

I think it’s the best option, let him go and Trent. Let’s try and sign a free agent or two.

I don’t trust Masai with free agency

Much rather see him use cap space to trade

I cannot think of a single free agent that has made an actual impact for the Raptors under Masai's tenure. Seriously. I'm just going for the bare minimum here.

Agreed, he even admitted as much in his last PC.

[anotherhomer]

I don’t trust Masai with free agency

Much rather see him use cap space to trade

I cannot think of a single free agent that has made an actual impact for the Raptors under Masai's tenure. Seriously. I'm just going for the bare minimum here.

Agreed, he even admitted as much in his last PC.

they already said they the strategy isn't to target free agents....they know that's not viable with Toronto.

trades are the way to go.