Masai messed up but deserves another chance

[CPT]

It sucks that we're rebuilding in Scottie's 4th-7th years as a player rather than his 1st-3rd. I think that having winning seasons was good for his rizz... but is this good for his personal timeline as a player? It's one thing to have your first rookie contract be under a rebuilding team, but your first NBA contract? I imagine that it's a tough pill to swallow.

I kind of feel like the worst part of Masai's miscalculation with the OG-Siakam-FVV-Barnes core was that it could have a subtext that Scottie's development and timeline was less important than what was (let's be honest) taking a chance with a middling roster.

Rizz development notwithstanding, this is one of my biggest concerns. Starting the rebuild in your franchise player's 4th year is not what you want to be doing. Especially if he looks more like a 1B.

At this point, he's either going to be too good to allow the team to bring in another blue chipper in the draft, or we're still a bottom 5 team with him in years 4 and 5, in which case he's probably not the guy to build around.

He's not going to be past his prime or anything like that, but people freaked out about the timeline for Scottie/Pascal. Scottie and the 2025/2026 picks will be a bit closer, but if we have to wait until Scottie is 27 for the next guy to start being productive, we'll just be having those conversations again.

[nikster]

Congrats on manufacturing an argument. Let me try and spell it out.

I said he obviously picked the best player, as in HE GETS CREDIT FOR DOING THAT, CAUSE OBVIOUSLY HE DID IT. Like jesus, not everything is a fight.

And yes, 3-5 busts.

"we haven't hit on a draft pick, found any undrafted gems, traded for any underrated/undiscovered players. Like 0% success rate."
Doesn't sound like giving him credit

Oh look, another person throwing in their 2 cents without reading the preceding discussion. I'm ever so shocked.

Nah I read the whole thing. Criticizing for him not hitting on picks 29, 59, 49, and 47 while ignoring the #4 (literally the single most important pick in franchise history) and # 13 isn't giving him credit. What do you think the odds of an NBA quality player with an average selection in the 40s?

[ATLTimekeeper]

It sucks that we're rebuilding in Scottie's 4th-7th years as a player rather than his 1st-3rd. I think that having winning seasons was good for his rizz... but is this good for his personal timeline as a player? It's one thing to have your first rookie contract be under a rebuilding team, but your first NBA contract? I imagine that it's a tough pill to swallow.

I kind of feel like the worst part of Masai's miscalculation with the OG-Siakam-FVV-Barnes core was that it could have a subtext that Scottie's development and timeline was less important than what was (let's be honest) taking a chance with a middling roster.

Rizz development notwithstanding, this is one of my biggest concerns. Starting the rebuild in your franchise player's 4th year is not what you want to be doing. Especially if he looks more like a 1B.

At this point, he's either going to be too good to allow the team to bring in another blue chipper in the draft, or we're still a bottom 5 team with him in years 4 and 5, in which case he's probably not the guy to build around.

He's not going to be past his prime or anything like that, but people freaked out about the timeline for Scottie/Pascal. Scottie and the 2025/2026 picks will be a bit closer, but if we have to wait until Scottie is 27 for the next guy to start being productive, we'll just be having those conversations again.

On the other hand, you're really just wasting 1 year to see if Scottie can do it v. several as a nascent player in the NBA. Then you can switch to building like we did with DeMar/Kyle and Pascal/Fred.

At this point, Masai has no good picks and no trades that have to be made. There's nothing he can really 'screw up' in the next year, because he's already made those mistakes. I wouldn't re-up him until it looks like he's been proven right on some of his bigger bets, though.

[pharring]

I think the key number to this "rebuild" is 24. Right now and next year, aim to acquire frontline players that are 24 years old (give or take a year).

At the same time, you take some developmental swings in the draft or with trades. Get assets with longer-term potential that can sit in Mississauga for a bit. Draft and stash some teens and Euros. Oh, and re-evaluate your end-of-roster approach. Been making bad long-term decisions on 2-ways, undrafted and end-of-training-camp cuts for a few years now. That's gotta stop.

Build a roster around 23-24-25 year olds, and when the teams that are currently locked into big money deals with guys in their 30s (whom they acquired with all their draft capital) start to feel the pinch, now you are in position to add a #1 to the mix. Or maybe Scottie is better than Aaron Frickin Gordon thinks he is and we don't need a #1. I at least trust Masai & Co over that guy.

[TorontoBarneys]

It sucks that we're rebuilding in Scottie's 4th-7th years as a player rather than his 1st-3rd. I think that having winning seasons was good for his rizz... but is this good for his personal timeline as a player? It's one thing to have your first rookie contract be under a rebuilding team, but your first NBA contract? I imagine that it's a tough pill to swallow.

I kind of feel like the worst part of Masai's miscalculation with the OG-Siakam-FVV-Barnes core was that it could have a subtext that Scottie's development and timeline was less important than what was (let's be honest) taking a chance with a middling roster.

Yes.

Masai's deadline trades in 21/22 and 22/23 have done real harm to the franchise's future development aspects and only disingenuous people are still disputing that or downplaying it. The Thad trade was pure arrogance because we still desperately needed to fill the gaping hole at C back then and they opted not to. The Poeltl trade itself will be argued to be just that but that was never the main reason why the trigger was pulled - it was because Masai ultimately believed that the core + Poeltl could make serious waves in the playoffs. It was a gross miscalculation on his part that's still being downplayed to this day. The roster needed a C badly but a C of Poeltl's caliber was not ever a necessity, a cheaper C that didn't cost you multiple years of a rebuild could have been signed that following offseason.

Masai thought he had something with the longboi 6'9 bull. Masai thought he had something with the FVV-OG-Siakam core. He was wrong on both accounts, and people calling this out have been lambasted by the same 5-10 posters for years now. The fact that the rebuild is essentially just beginning -now- is pretty sad, and I'm already seeing more than a few posters wanting to speed it up and grab a top 40-50 player this offseason.

[Scase]

"we haven't hit on a draft pick, found any undrafted gems, traded for any underrated/undiscovered players. Like 0% success rate."
Doesn't sound like giving him credit

Oh look, another person throwing in their 2 cents without reading the preceding discussion. I'm ever so shocked.

Nah I read the whole thing. Criticizing for him not hitting on picks 29, 59, 49, and 47 while ignoring the #4 (literally the single most important pick in franchise history) and # 13 isn't giving him credit. What do you think the odds of an NBA quality player with an average selection in the 40s?

If you read the whole thing you wouldn't be focused only on the drafting aspect, since I mentioned both finding gems in trades, and undrafted FAs. But clearly you either didn't read it or you have a slant, shocker.

[Scase]

It sucks that we're rebuilding in Scottie's 4th-7th years as a player rather than his 1st-3rd. I think that having winning seasons was good for his rizz... but is this good for his personal timeline as a player? It's one thing to have your first rookie contract be under a rebuilding team, but your first NBA contract? I imagine that it's a tough pill to swallow.

I kind of feel like the worst part of Masai's miscalculation with the OG-Siakam-FVV-Barnes core was that it could have a subtext that Scottie's development and timeline was less important than what was (let's be honest) taking a chance with a middling roster.

Yes.

Masai's deadline trades in 21/22 and 22/23 have done real harm to the franchise's future development aspects and only disingenuous people are still disputing that or downplaying it. The Thad trade was pure arrogance because we still desperately needed to fill the gaping hole at C back then and they opted not to. The Poeltl trade itself will be argued to be just that but that was never the main reason why the trigger was pulled - it was because Masai ultimately believed that the core + Poeltl could make serious waves in the playoffs. It was a gross miscalculation on his part that's still being downplayed to this day. The roster needed a C badly but a C of Poeltl's caliber was not ever a necessity, a cheaper C that didn't cost you multiple years of a rebuild could have been signed that following offseason.

Masai thought he had something with the longboi 6'9 bull. Masai thought he had something with the FVV-OG-Siakam core. He was wrong on both accounts, and people calling this out have been lambasted by the same 5-10 posters for years now. The fact that the rebuild is essentially just beginning -now- is pretty sad, and I'm already seeing more than a few posters wanting to speed it up and grab a top 40-50 player this offseason.

And their responses now are "WELL THE REBUILD STARTED, STOP TALKING ABOUT THE PAST", unsurprisingly.

[disoblige]

It sucks that we're rebuilding in Scottie's 4th-7th years as a player rather than his 1st-3rd. I think that having winning seasons was good for his rizz... but is this good for his personal timeline as a player? It's one thing to have your first rookie contract be under a rebuilding team, but your first NBA contract? I imagine that it's a tough pill to swallow.

I kind of feel like the worst part of Masai's miscalculation with the OG-Siakam-FVV-Barnes core was that it could have a subtext that Scottie's development and timeline was less important than what was (let's be honest) taking a chance with a middling roster.

Yes.

Masai's deadline trades in 21/22 and 22/23 have done real harm to the franchise's future development aspects and only disingenuous people are still disputing that or downplaying it. The Thad trade was pure arrogance because we still desperately needed to fill the gaping hole at C back then and they opted not to. The Poeltl trade itself will be argued to be just that but that was never the main reason why the trigger was pulled - it was because Masai ultimately believed that the core + Poeltl could make serious waves in the playoffs. It was a gross miscalculation on his part that's still being downplayed to this day. The roster needed a C badly but a C of Poeltl's caliber was not ever a necessity, a cheaper C that didn't cost you multiple years of a rebuild could have been signed that following offseason.

Masai thought he had something with the longboi 6'9 bull. Masai thought he had something with the FVV-OG-Siakam core. He was wrong on both accounts, and people calling this out have been lambasted by the same 5-10 posters for years now. The fact that the rebuild is essentially just beginning -now- is pretty sad, and I'm already seeing more than a few posters wanting to speed it up and grab a top 40-50 player this offseason.

I made a tank thread 2 years ago and it was lock for being unreasonable.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2243194

[Duffman100]

It sucks that we're rebuilding in Scottie's 4th-7th years as a player rather than his 1st-3rd. I think that having winning seasons was good for his rizz... but is this good for his personal timeline as a player? It's one thing to have your first rookie contract be under a rebuilding team, but your first NBA contract? I imagine that it's a tough pill to swallow.

I kind of feel like the worst part of Masai's miscalculation with the OG-Siakam-FVV-Barnes core was that it could have a subtext that Scottie's development and timeline was less important than what was (let's be honest) taking a chance with a middling roster.

Yes.

Masai's deadline trades in 21/22 and 22/23 have done real harm to the franchise's future development aspects and only disingenuous people are still disputing that or downplaying it. The Thad trade was pure arrogance because we still desperately needed to fill the gaping hole at C back then and they opted not to. The Poeltl trade itself will be argued to be just that but that was never the main reason why the trigger was pulled - it was because Masai ultimately believed that the core + Poeltl could make serious waves in the playoffs. It was a gross miscalculation on his part that's still being downplayed to this day. The roster needed a C badly but a C of Poeltl's caliber was not ever a necessity, a cheaper C that didn't cost you multiple years of a rebuild could have been signed that following offseason.

Masai thought he had something with the longboi 6'9 bull. Masai thought he had something with the FVV-OG-Siakam core. He was wrong on both accounts, and people calling this out have been lambasted by the same 5-10 posters for years now. The fact that the rebuild is essentially just beginning -now- is pretty sad, and I'm already seeing more than a few posters wanting to speed it up and grab a top 40-50 player this offseason.

I made a tank thread 2 years ago and it was lock for being unreasonable.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2243194

Are you sure it wasn't locked because we already had a dedicated tanking thread?

[Scase]

Yes.

Masai's deadline trades in 21/22 and 22/23 have done real harm to the franchise's future development aspects and only disingenuous people are still disputing that or downplaying it. The Thad trade was pure arrogance because we still desperately needed to fill the gaping hole at C back then and they opted not to. The Poeltl trade itself will be argued to be just that but that was never the main reason why the trigger was pulled - it was because Masai ultimately believed that the core + Poeltl could make serious waves in the playoffs. It was a gross miscalculation on his part that's still being downplayed to this day. The roster needed a C badly but a C of Poeltl's caliber was not ever a necessity, a cheaper C that didn't cost you multiple years of a rebuild could have been signed that following offseason.

Masai thought he had something with the longboi 6'9 bull. Masai thought he had something with the FVV-OG-Siakam core. He was wrong on both accounts, and people calling this out have been lambasted by the same 5-10 posters for years now. The fact that the rebuild is essentially just beginning -now- is pretty sad, and I'm already seeing more than a few posters wanting to speed it up and grab a top 40-50 player this offseason.

I made a tank thread 2 years ago and it was lock for being unreasonable.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2243194

Are you sure it wasn't locked because we already had a dedicated tanking thread?

There's a dedicated playoff thread, yet we have 2 threads about Siakam making it to the ECF, and a Siakam vs OG thread, all 3 on the front page.

[disoblige]

Yes.

Masai's deadline trades in 21/22 and 22/23 have done real harm to the franchise's future development aspects and only disingenuous people are still disputing that or downplaying it. The Thad trade was pure arrogance because we still desperately needed to fill the gaping hole at C back then and they opted not to. The Poeltl trade itself will be argued to be just that but that was never the main reason why the trigger was pulled - it was because Masai ultimately believed that the core + Poeltl could make serious waves in the playoffs. It was a gross miscalculation on his part that's still being downplayed to this day. The roster needed a C badly but a C of Poeltl's caliber was not ever a necessity, a cheaper C that didn't cost you multiple years of a rebuild could have been signed that following offseason.

Masai thought he had something with the longboi 6'9 bull. Masai thought he had something with the FVV-OG-Siakam core. He was wrong on both accounts, and people calling this out have been lambasted by the same 5-10 posters for years now. The fact that the rebuild is essentially just beginning -now- is pretty sad, and I'm already seeing more than a few posters wanting to speed it up and grab a top 40-50 player this offseason.

I made a tank thread 2 years ago and it was lock for being unreasonable.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2243194

Are you sure it wasn't locked because we already had a dedicated tanking thread?

I am not sure but I wouldn't have made a tank thread if I seen one. We were 48wins prior to the post and I don't think tanking that year was popular. You can read the comments that we couldn't tank on that season and people mostly voted "No". I am not mad for it being locked.
My point was many people didn't want to tank or we couldn't. 4 out of 14 wanted to tank in that poll.

[Duffman100]

Oh look, another person throwing in their 2 cents without reading the preceding discussion. I'm ever so shocked.

Nah I read the whole thing. Criticizing for him not hitting on picks 29, 59, 49, and 47 while ignoring the #4 (literally the single most important pick in franchise history) and # 13 isn't giving him credit. What do you think the odds of an NBA quality player with an average selection in the 40s?

If you read the whole thing you wouldn't be focused only on the drafting aspect, since I mentioned both finding gems in trades, and undrafted FAs. But clearly you either didn't read it or you have a slant, shocker.

Yes and when we press for a list of players that fit this criteria, the best list we've seen was 30 players in the past 7 years. 2 of which were on the Raptors.

We've missed but it's also not something that happens often league wide.

[Duffman100]

I made a tank thread 2 years ago and it was lock for being unreasonable.

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=2243194

Are you sure it wasn't locked because we already had a dedicated tanking thread?

There's a dedicated playoff thread, yet we have 2 threads about Siakam making it to the ECF, and a Siakam vs OG thread, all 3 on the front page.

So? Why does this bother you so much? Because you really just don't like pascal that much that it irks you to see a thread?

[Scase]

Are you sure it wasn't locked because we already had a dedicated tanking thread?

There's a dedicated playoff thread, yet we have 2 threads about Siakam making it to the ECF, and a Siakam vs OG thread, all 3 on the front page.

So? Why does this bother you so much? Because you really just don't like pascal that much that it irks you to see a thread?

So? Why does this bother you so much? Do you really hate tanking so much that it irks you to see a thread? Sounds pretty silly when you flip it right?

I'm going by your own interpretation of the rules of the board, and as always asking for consistency. I called out the Siakam vs OG thread as well. Do we need 4 threads to discuss the same thing?

[Scase]

Nah I read the whole thing. Criticizing for him not hitting on picks 29, 59, 49, and 47 while ignoring the #4 (literally the single most important pick in franchise history) and # 13 isn't giving him credit. What do you think the odds of an NBA quality player with an average selection in the 40s?

If you read the whole thing you wouldn't be focused only on the drafting aspect, since I mentioned both finding gems in trades, and undrafted FAs. But clearly you either didn't read it or you have a slant, shocker.

Yes and when we press for a list of players that fit this criteria, the best list we've seen was 30 players in the past 7 years. 2 of which were on the Raptors.

We've missed but it's also not something that happens often league wide.

My guy, you literally responded to a post where I listed like 5 or 6 players on the Knicks alone that fit this criteria. And you wonder why I keep telling you to READ the conversation before chiming in.

[Duffman100]

There's a dedicated playoff thread, yet we have 2 threads about Siakam making it to the ECF, and a Siakam vs OG thread, all 3 on the front page.

So? Why does this bother you so much? Because you really just don't like pascal that much that it irks you to see a thread?

So? Why does this bother you so much? Do you really hate tanking so much that it irks you to see a thread? Sounds pretty silly when you flip it right?

I'm going by your own interpretation of the rules of the board, and as always asking for consistency. I called out the Siakam vs OG thread as well. Do we need 4 threads to discuss the same thing?

Except I didn't lock that thread.... so. It doesn't quite work does it?

[Scase]

So? Why does this bother you so much? Because you really just don't like pascal that much that it irks you to see a thread?

So? Why does this bother you so much? Do you really hate tanking so much that it irks you to see a thread? Sounds pretty silly when you flip it right?

I'm going by your own interpretation of the rules of the board, and as always asking for consistency. I called out the Siakam vs OG thread as well. Do we need 4 threads to discuss the same thing?

Except I didn't lock that thread.... so. It doesn't quite work does it?

Didn't stop you from suggesting it was locked for being a duplicate then, did it? While at the same time clearly suggesting that being a duplicate is a reason for a thread to be locked, and here we come back around full circle.

3 redundant threads, all with the same arguments going around in circles, kept open.

[Duffman100]

So? Why does this bother you so much? Do you really hate tanking so much that it irks you to see a thread? Sounds pretty silly when you flip it right?

I'm going by your own interpretation of the rules of the board, and as always asking for consistency. I called out the Siakam vs OG thread as well. Do we need 4 threads to discuss the same thing?

Except I didn't lock that thread.... so. It doesn't quite work does it?

Didn't stop you from suggesting it was locked for being a duplicate then, did it? While at the same time clearly suggesting that being a duplicate is a reason for a thread to be locked, and here we come back around full circle.

3 redundant threads, all with the same arguments going around in circles, kept open.

It's the offseason , things are a bit more chill and the mods are more lenient. We also don't really care about your irrational siakam hate.

Apply to be a moderator though! Then you can enforce the rules

[Scase]

Except I didn't lock that thread.... so. It doesn't quite work does it?

Didn't stop you from suggesting it was locked for being a duplicate then, did it? While at the same time clearly suggesting that being a duplicate is a reason for a thread to be locked, and here we come back around full circle.

3 redundant threads, all with the same arguments going around in circles, kept open.

It's the offseason , things are a bit more chill and the mods are more lenient. We also don't really care about your irrational siakam hate.

Apply to be a moderator though! Then you can enforce the rules

Yeah I'm sure you'd have no opposition to that

[brownbobcat]

Funny. Another thread where people think they are smarter than Masai.

Sir, this is an Internet forum.

Do we not disparage rotations or play calls from coaches who know infinitely more about basketball than us? Or rag on players who are the 0.01% of their profession and spend thousands of hours on their craft?

Smart people do dumb things all the time. And when they do so, it's completely fair game for criticism. I think Masai & Co did a lot of dumb things in the aftermath of the 2020 season, primarily because they were hoping for a quick turnaround. I've been very vocal about Masai's errors of strategy and how it belied a deep misunderstanding of what the team was. It's easy to see why the FO made those mistakes despite being smart people - they were too close to it, imbibed too deeply on their own Kool-Aid. In fairness, a tank is not an easy thing to embrace. It can mean years in the wilderness and lost jobs.

Despite all this, I think they still deserve a chance to right the ship. There is a glimmer of hope to return to competitiveness within the next 2-3 years. I don't think the upside of this core is good enough to win a championship or anything, but it might be good enough to get to 50 wins eventually with some smart drafting, good trades and a generous portion of luck. Hopefully Masai has learned his lesson and I'll judge him on that going forward.