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[nikster]

I can also argue the opposite which includes players like lively who average less as well. But hey, since I realized I put in Adams and not JJJ for Memphis I can fix that, and do median as well.



Virtually no difference though, his blocking looks better, but his lack of a 3 looks even worse.

So significantly better defensively than average, better finisher at the rim, more assists and better assist/TO ratio, rebounds per minute basically the same. Ignores all the little things he does well (positional defense, screening etc...)

So once again your argument boils down to just 3 point shooting

Significantly better defensively than what now? This is an aggregate of stats, not a per player comparison. Cause he averages a third of a block more per game?

Worse rebounder, absolutely horrible from the line making him worthless in close games. As evidenced by his inability to play significant minutes. And then you bring up stuff like positional defence and screens hahaha. Cool, now go prove he's better at than then the other 29 players.

Dude is a mid centre, definitely not above average, how hard you are trying to prove this is sad. Again, Masai himself said the trade was a mistake. Y'all are unhinged with the defence of an objectively bad trade.

That's almost 50% more blocks per minute, similar steals. You can't even even interpret your own chart because his per minute rebounding is actually slightly higher than the average (11.7 per 36 for Poeltl vs 11.3 for average).

Im not even talking about the trade bue the valuaton of poeltl as a player. Your so upset about the trade you have to exaggerate how bad Poeltl is. You put together these aggregate stats for what? To show us he can't shoot 3s or free throws? And I'm the one "trying so hard" to prove my point?

[canada_dry]

So significantly better defensively than average, better finisher at the rim, more assists and better assist/TO ratio, rebounds per minute basically the same. Ignores all the little things he does well (positional defense, screening etc...)

So once again your argument boils down to just 3 point shooting

Significantly better defensively than what now? This is an aggregate of stats, not a per player comparison. Cause he averages a third of a block more per game?

Worse rebounder, absolutely horrible from the line making him worthless in close games. As evidenced by his inability to play significant minutes. And then you bring up stuff like positional defence and screens hahaha. Cool, now go prove he's better at than then the other 29 players.

Dude is a mid centre, definitely not above average, how hard you are trying to prove this is sad. Again, Masai himself said the trade was a mistake. Y'all are unhinged with the defence of an objectively bad trade.

That's almost 50% more blocks per minute, similar steals. You can't even even interpret your own chart because his per minute rebounding is actually slightly higher than the average (11.7 per 36 for Poeltl vs 11.3 for average).

Im not even talking about the trade bue the valuaton of poeltl as a player. Your so upset about the trade you have to exaggerate how bad Poeltl is. You put together these aggregate stats for what? To show us he can't shoot 3s or free throws? And I'm the one "trying so hard" to prove my point?

Yea at this point i think the discussion is about poetl as a player. Theres a chasm between the two sides in how we view him.

I dont think anyone thinks its a GOOD trade in hindsight either. I think even the most ardent team positive guys, and we know who they are, will readily admit its a bad trade. In fact im sure ive seen them do as much...But opinions on how damaging the trade is also differs between the two sides.

So to continue to paint it as defense of the trade is strange.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Scase]

So significantly better defensively than average, better finisher at the rim, more assists and better assist/TO ratio, rebounds per minute basically the same. Ignores all the little things he does well (positional defense, screening etc...)

So once again your argument boils down to just 3 point shooting

Significantly better defensively than what now? This is an aggregate of stats, not a per player comparison. Cause he averages a third of a block more per game?

Worse rebounder, absolutely horrible from the line making him worthless in close games. As evidenced by his inability to play significant minutes. And then you bring up stuff like positional defence and screens hahaha. Cool, now go prove he's better at than then the other 29 players.

Dude is a mid centre, definitely not above average, how hard you are trying to prove this is sad. Again, Masai himself said the trade was a mistake. Y'all are unhinged with the defence of an objectively bad trade.

That's almost 50% more blocks per minute, similar steals. You can't even even interpret your own chart because his per minute rebounding is actually slightly higher than the average (11.7 per 36 for Poeltl vs 11.3 for average).

Im not even talking about the trade bue the valuaton of poeltl as a player. Your so upset about the trade you have to exaggerate how bad Poeltl is. You put together these aggregate stats for what? To show us he can't shoot 3s or free throws? And I'm the one "trying so hard" to prove my point?

TJ McConnel puts up 20/5/11 per 36, man why did we bother with IQ. His per minute stats are off the charts! It's not 2008 anymore, no one uses "per minute" stats, cause they are terrible and meaningless. Next up you're gonna talk about his PER. Even worse, per minute stats are extra meaningless, when the player never plays more minutes. Just horrible argument after horrible argument.

The aggregate stats show he is below average as a starter, you can't seem to deduce that. He's a mid player, that's it.

[Tripod]

So much time talking about Yak and his FT shooting....

....he takes less than 3 shots a game.

We are litterly talking about him making 2 extra FT's over 4 games to go from poor FT shooter to a fine one. So we are talking like 1 point every 2 games he is "costing us" due to poor FT's.

He does a ton more of good for the team. He isn’t getting traded folks. We will add a young C...or 2 who can learn from Yak and KO and who they hope will naturally take over them in a few years.

[ciueli]

It isn't even really about how bad that trade was anymore, it's now more about whether Jakob should be a part of the future of the Raptors going forward.

There's a contingent on this board that seems to think he's a valuable piece to the puzzle, and then there's those like me who see keeping him as pointless given his age, skill set, and reality of the Raptors' current non-competitive situation. Realistically the only reason to keep him on the team now is to push for the play-in, exactly the opposite of what we should be doing as a rebuilding team.

From my point of view, Jakob Poeltl isn't our centre of the future once we (hopefully) are successful in building a contending team around Scottie in a few years, so I don't see why we would choose to keep him now. Holding on to him really just boils down to the optics of moving a player for less than was given up to get him and a desire to win in the short term, both are bad for the future of this franchise IMO.

[Los_29]

How many centers actually play heavy minutes? Even guys like Jokic and Embiid barely play over 30 minutes a game. Poeltl was not 8th on our team in minutes. I can’t believe you didn’t bother to even check that. You know who is ahead of him? Pascal, OG and Dennis. Three players who are NOT on our team anymore. With our current roster, you really think he would be 8th in minutes?

Uhh, that doesn't help your argument. You can't simultaneously be not good enough to play heavy minutes and also be a major contributor to winning. Jokic plays 33-35 mins/game in the regular season and nearly 40 in the playoffs. Same goes for Embiid despite being made of glass, so I have no idea what you're talking about. 26.4 minutes is 26.4 minutes any way you want to slice it for Poeltl, he's barely ahead of Brown and Agbaji. The only other C on the team the year before was a very raw rookie C and Poeltl still couldn't crack 30 MPG despite being the "missing piece".

I always find player A and player B comparisons funny but the reality is Poeltl is a better player than Hartenstein. When the Knicks were healthy, Hartenstein was barely playing.

The point about Hartenstein was more about them being on the same tier, which they are. He and Robinson platoon the 5, the Raptors have no one else to turn to and Poeltl barely gets more minutes more in spite of that.

What doesn’t help my argument? I’m stating a fact that a lot of centers don’t play heavy minutes. This is an indisputable fact. Your whole argument was flawed right from the beginning. It was also incredibly disingenuous or lazy to list Poeltl as 8th on the team in minutes played considering you included players that aren’t on the team anymore. I suggest you take a look at minutes played by centers around the league. Lots of good-great centers play less than 30 minutes a night.

Hartenstein was playing 16 minutes a night when the team was healthy. He’s not a bad center. I like him but the minutes he played are a reflection of the injuries that team had. Poeltl is in a higher tier than him.

[nikster]

Significantly better defensively than what now? This is an aggregate of stats, not a per player comparison. Cause he averages a third of a block more per game?

Worse rebounder, absolutely horrible from the line making him worthless in close games. As evidenced by his inability to play significant minutes. And then you bring up stuff like positional defence and screens hahaha. Cool, now go prove he's better at than then the other 29 players.

Dude is a mid centre, definitely not above average, how hard you are trying to prove this is sad. Again, Masai himself said the trade was a mistake. Y'all are unhinged with the defence of an objectively bad trade.

That's almost 50% more blocks per minute, similar steals. You can't even even interpret your own chart because his per minute rebounding is actually slightly higher than the average (11.7 per 36 for Poeltl vs 11.3 for average).

Im not even talking about the trade bue the valuaton of poeltl as a player. Your so upset about the trade you have to exaggerate how bad Poeltl is. You put together these aggregate stats for what? To show us he can't shoot 3s or free throws? And I'm the one "trying so hard" to prove my point?

TJ McConnel puts up 20/5/11 per 36, man why did we bother with IQ. His per minute stats are off the charts! It's not 2008 anymore, no one uses "per minute" stats, cause they are terrible and meaningless. Next up you're gonna talk about his PER. Even worse, per minute stats are extra meaningless, when the player never plays more minutes. Just horrible argument after horrible argument.

The aggregate stats show he is below average as a starter, you can't seem to deduce that. He's a mid player, that's it.

Per minute is completely fine to use when 2 comparators are close together. It's a 3 minute difference with the aggregate. the chart doesn't show he's a worse rebounder.

All your aggregate stats show he is he's can't shoot.

[will]

So much time talking about Yak and his FT shooting....

....he takes less than 3 shots a game.

We are litterly talking about him making 2 extra FT's over 4 games to go from poor FT shooter to a fine one. So we are talking like 1 point every 2 games he is "costing us" due to poor FT's.

He does a ton more of good for the team. He isn’t getting traded folks. We will add a young C...or 2 who can learn from Yak and KO and who they hope will naturally take over them in a few years.

The amount of close games lost due to FT....

You can say a dollar here, a dollar there. It all adds up.

[DreamTeam09]

Arguing if Jakob is actually a good basketball player now is just dumb. If he's worth the 8th pick in A weak draft, that's up for debate. (He is btw)

But actually arguing if Jakob is a good basketball playing C, which this has now turned into, is dumb.

[DG88]

Really didn't want to get into this debate but this argument is going down the path of lowest common denominator right now.

Is Jakob Poeltl a good basketball player? - Yes

Does his presence help the team, because he's a fundamental C? - Yes

Does he have weaknesses that limits his ability to play at the end of games? - Yes

Was trade for Jakob Poeltl at the trade deadline justified, with a team that was 26-30, who were not playing for each other? - No (Also remember Bobby said on live TV that the team was turning the corner, even when they never showed any inclination of turning the corner)

Does the FO deserve blame for a shortsighted move? - Yes

Does that mean we disparage Jakob Poeltl? - No

At the end of the day the trade was made, we got a C for a team that no longer exists but is still useful in the interim until we get our C of the future. I think we can all agree to the above and move on.

[Tripod]

So much time talking about Yak and his FT shooting....

....he takes less than 3 shots a game.

We are litterly talking about him making 2 extra FT's over 4 games to go from poor FT shooter to a fine one. So we are talking like 1 point every 2 games he is "costing us" due to poor FT's.

He does a ton more of good for the team. He isn’t getting traded folks. We will add a young C...or 2 who can learn from Yak and KO and who they hope will naturally take over them in a few years.

The amount of close games lost due to FT....

You can say a dollar here, a dollar there. It all adds up.

Sigh....

It become nitpicking when people go on and on over a stat that costs us .5 pts a game. He more than makes up for it in the positives he brings. That's all I am saying.

[will]

So much time talking about Yak and his FT shooting....

....he takes less than 3 shots a game.

We are litterly talking about him making 2 extra FT's over 4 games to go from poor FT shooter to a fine one. So we are talking like 1 point every 2 games he is "costing us" due to poor FT's.

He does a ton more of good for the team. He isn’t getting traded folks. We will add a young C...or 2 who can learn from Yak and KO and who they hope will naturally take over them in a few years.

The amount of close games lost due to FT....

You can say a dollar here, a dollar there. It all adds up.

Sigh....

It become nitpicking when people go on and on over a stat that costs us .5 pts a game. He more than makes up for it in the positives he brings. That's all I am saying.

You say that.

How many game threads have we participated in bemoaning a loss due to missed FT?

[Shakril]

So much time talking about Yak and his FT shooting....

....he takes less than 3 shots a game.

We are litterly talking about him making 2 extra FT's over 4 games to go from poor FT shooter to a fine one. So we are talking like 1 point every 2 games he is "costing us" due to poor FT's.

He does a ton more of good for the team. He isn’t getting traded folks. We will add a young C...or 2 who can learn from Yak and KO and who they hope will naturally take over them in a few years.

The amount of close games lost due to FT....

You can say a dollar here, a dollar there. It all adds up.

Problem with your statement is: We never have lost a game because of Poeltls FTs. A major fact you ignore.

[Shakril]

The amount of close games lost due to FT....

You can say a dollar here, a dollar there. It all adds up.

Sigh....

It become nitpicking when people go on and on over a stat that costs us .5 pts a game. He more than makes up for it in the positives he brings. That's all I am saying.

You say that.

How many game threads have we participated in bemoaning a loss due to missed FT?

Yes, cause the team as a whole missed too many of them down the clutch, not specificly poeltl.

[will]

Sigh....

It become nitpicking when people go on and on over a stat that costs us .5 pts a game. He more than makes up for it in the positives he brings. That's all I am saying.

You say that.

How many game threads have we participated in bemoaning a loss due to missed FT?

Yes, cause the team as a whole missed too many of them down the clutch, not specificly poeltl.

A contributing factor, yes.

[JB7]

Really didn't want to get into this debate but this argument is going down the path of lowest common denominator right now.

Is Jakob Poeltl a good basketball player? - Yes

Does his presence help the team, because he's a fundamental C? - Yes

Does he have weaknesses that limits his ability to play at the end of games? - Yes

Was trade for Jakob Poeltl at the trade deadline justified, with a team that was 26-30, who were not playing for each other? - No (Also remember Bobby said on live TV that the team was turning the corner, even when they never showed any inclination of turning the corner)

Does the FO deserve blame for a shortsighted move? - Yes

Does that mean we disparage Jakob Poeltl? - No

At the end of the day the trade was made, we got a C for a team that no longer exists but is still useful in the interim until we get our C of the future. I think we can all agree to the above and move on.

I think one of the fundamental misunderstandings with the actual trade is the timing of it. The assumption is it was purely about improving the Raps chances at the end of that season. It didn't hurt. But I don't think that was the main reason for the timing of the deal.

I believe the timing was purely about the cost Masai was willing to pay for Yak. Masai had been targeting Yak for awhile as the team clearly needed a C. Masai easily would have done the deal in the summer prior if the Spurs were not asking for such an exorbitant cost in 2 FRPs. It was clear the Spurs were trying to unload all of their talent in the pursuit of a better chance at Wemby (as they had already traded Dejounte), so it just became a waiting game until Masai could get the price lower. I'm sure what also factored into it was where the FRPs would be coming from, in terms of the draft years. So lowering the cost was about getting them off 2 FRPs, and probably away from the 2023 & 2025 draft years.

I think Yak was always thought of as part of the longer term plan, because he is only 28, and could easily play another 5-7 years with them. I would not be surprised if the original plan was for him to help develop Koloko, who would then replace Yak near the end of Yak's current deal, but that is no longer happening.

Masai has never preached a long-term tank strategy. Actually the opposite, in that he has always talked about developing players through success (building teams that can be competitive). So the addition of Yak was clearly about helping raise the floor of the team, so that the younger players had something to build off.

[brownbobcat]

What doesn’t help my argument? I’m stating a fact that a lot of centers don’t play heavy minutes. This is an indisputable fact. Your whole argument was flawed right from the beginning. It was also incredibly disingenuous or lazy to list Poeltl as 8th on the team in minutes played considering you included players that aren’t on the team anymore. I suggest you take a look at minutes played by centers around the league. Lots of good-great centers play less than 30 minutes a night.

Hartenstein was playing 16 minutes a night when the team was healthy. He’s not a bad center. I like him but the minutes he played are a reflection of the injuries that team had. Poeltl is in a higher tier than him.

If you rank Cs by MPG this year, Poeltl is something like 18th. For a starting C, that isn't "good-great" at all. He's a lower-tier starting C, which is what I've said all along and I haven't seen a shred of evidence to show otherwise.

And if this team had Mitchell Robinson, Poeltl would be playing less too. But they have nobody else and he still gets limited minutes.

[Tripod]

The amount of close games lost due to FT....

You can say a dollar here, a dollar there. It all adds up.

Sigh....

It become nitpicking when people go on and on over a stat that costs us .5 pts a game. He more than makes up for it in the positives he brings. That's all I am saying.

You say that.

How many game threads have we participated in bemoaning a loss due to missed FT?

None because of Yak.

Why?

Because again, he takes less than 3 a game. Now Siakam....

[Mikistan]

Sigh....

It become nitpicking when people go on and on over a stat that costs us .5 pts a game. He more than makes up for it in the positives he brings. That's all I am saying.

You say that.

How many game threads have we participated in bemoaning a loss due to missed FT?

None because of Yak.

Why?

Because again, he takes less than 3 a game. Now Siakam....

[islandboy53]

Really didn't want to get into this debate but this argument is going down the path of lowest common denominator right now.

Is Jakob Poeltl a good basketball player? - Yes

Does his presence help the team, because he's a fundamental C? - Yes

Does he have weaknesses that limits his ability to play at the end of games? - Yes

Was trade for Jakob Poeltl at the trade deadline justified, with a team that was 26-30, who were not playing for each other? - No (Also remember Bobby said on live TV that the team was turning the corner, even when they never showed any inclination of turning the corner)

Does the FO deserve blame for a shortsighted move? - Yes

Does that mean we disparage Jakob Poeltl? - No

At the end of the day the trade was made, we got a C for a team that no longer exists but is still useful in the interim until we get our C of the future. I think we can all agree to the above and move on.

I think one of the fundamental misunderstandings with the actual trade is the timing of it. The assumption is it was purely about improving the Raps chances at the end of that season. It didn't hurt. But I don't think that was the main reason for the timing of the deal.

I believe the timing was purely about the cost Masai was willing to pay for Yak. Masai had been targeting Yak for awhile as the team clearly needed a C. Masai easily would have done the deal in the summer prior if the Spurs were not asking for such an exorbitant cost in 2 FRPs. It was clear the Spurs were trying to unload all of their talent in the pursuit of a better chance at Wemby (as they had already traded Dejounte), so it just became a waiting game until Masai could get the price lower. I'm sure what also factored into it was where the FRPs would be coming from, in terms of the draft years. So lowering the cost was about getting them off 2 FRPs, and probably away from the 2023 & 2025 draft years.

I think Yak was always thought of as part of the longer term plan, because he is only 28, and could easily play another 5-7 years with them. I would not be surprised if the original plan was for him to help develop Koloko, who would then replace Yak near the end of Yak's current deal, but that is no longer happening.

Masai has never preached a long-term tank strategy. Actually the opposite, in that he has always talked about developing players through success (building teams that can be competitive). So the addition of Yak was clearly about helping raise the floor of the team, so that the younger players had something to build off.

Thank you. It’s refreshing to see someone analyzing the situation thoughtfully.