23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked??

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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#21 » by EvanZ » Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:31 pm

165bows wrote:
CP War Hawks wrote:Guys with high end potential just aren't being overlooked these days unless it's some poor teen never seen before in South America, Asia, or Africa somewhere.

That’s just not the case. Celtics drafted Bane at 30 two years ago and traded him for a couple future seconds.


If you are drafted at 30, you were not hidden. Bane was a four-year player that people like me thought should declare pretty much every season since his sophomore year. Kind of like Jaime Jaquez this year. I thought he should have declared after his Freshman season. Those guys aren't hidden at all. Every NBA GM and scout knew about Bane.
I was right about 3 point shooting. I expect to be right about Tacko Fall. Some coach will figure out how to use Tacko Fall. This movement towards undersized centers will sweep ng back. Back to the basket scorers will return to the NBA.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#22 » by EvanZ » Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:31 pm

Even guys like Huerter, Primo or Jalen Williams who are under the radar during the season rise up the boards once draft season starts in earnest.
I was right about 3 point shooting. I expect to be right about Tacko Fall. Some coach will figure out how to use Tacko Fall. This movement towards undersized centers will sweep ng back. Back to the basket scorers will return to the NBA.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#23 » by 165bows » Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:42 pm

EvanZ wrote:
165bows wrote:
CP War Hawks wrote:Guys with high end potential just aren't being overlooked these days unless it's some poor teen never seen before in South America, Asia, or Africa somewhere.

That’s just not the case. Celtics drafted Bane at 30 two years ago and traded him for a couple future seconds.


If you are drafted at 30, you were not hidden. Bane was a four-year player that people like me thought should declare pretty much every season since his sophomore year. Kind of like Jaime Jaquez this year. I thought he should have declared after his Freshman season. Those guys aren't hidden at all. Every NBA GM and scout knew about Bane.

Sure except no one is saying hidden except you. OP said undervalued/2nd round guys.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#24 » by EvanZ » Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:05 pm

165bows wrote:
EvanZ wrote:
165bows wrote:That’s just not the case. Celtics drafted Bane at 30 two years ago and traded him for a couple future seconds.


If you are drafted at 30, you were not hidden. Bane was a four-year player that people like me thought should declare pretty much every season since his sophomore year. Kind of like Jaime Jaquez this year. I thought he should have declared after his Freshman season. Those guys aren't hidden at all. Every NBA GM and scout knew about Bane.

Sure except no one is saying hidden except you. OP said undervalued/2nd round guys.


My guy, it's literally in the title of this thread :lol:
I was right about 3 point shooting. I expect to be right about Tacko Fall. Some coach will figure out how to use Tacko Fall. This movement towards undersized centers will sweep ng back. Back to the basket scorers will return to the NBA.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#25 » by 165bows » Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:09 pm

EvanZ wrote:
165bows wrote:
EvanZ wrote:
If you are drafted at 30, you were not hidden. Bane was a four-year player that people like me thought should declare pretty much every season since his sophomore year. Kind of like Jaime Jaquez this year. I thought he should have declared after his Freshman season. Those guys aren't hidden at all. Every NBA GM and scout knew about Bane.

Sure except no one is saying hidden except you. OP said undervalued/2nd round guys.


My guy, it's literally in the title of this thread :lol:

It's a figure of speech bro he's obviously not talking about some disney movie.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#26 » by EvanZ » Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:44 pm

You guys talk about it exactly like it's a Disney movie...like a Bo Cruz is coming. :lol:
I was right about 3 point shooting. I expect to be right about Tacko Fall. Some coach will figure out how to use Tacko Fall. This movement towards undersized centers will sweep ng back. Back to the basket scorers will return to the NBA.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#27 » by CP War Hawks » Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:09 pm

eminence wrote:
165bows wrote:
CP War Hawks wrote:Guys with high end potential just aren't being overlooked these days unless it's some poor teen never seen before in South America, Asia, or Africa somewhere.

That’s just not the case. Celtics drafted Bane at 30 two years ago and traded him for a couple future seconds.


Yeah, agreed, I don't really see any this year, but it obviously still happens. Kessler from last draft would obviously go much higher in a redraft right now and is flirting with allstar potential (impact, if never actual achievement, it's hard as a defense first big).


Kessler was a mid 1st rd pick. He was a McDonalds AA. The OP is talking about late 2nds that could've gone undrafted in another reality like Jokic and Ginobili. So essentially a non American prospect.

I will say the next one should be in the Pacific Islands. Those guys have natural high end athletic ability. It's a good NBA guard prospect walking around out there rn.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#28 » by eminence » Tue Mar 21, 2023 8:30 pm

CP War Hawks wrote:
eminence wrote:
165bows wrote:That’s just not the case. Celtics drafted Bane at 30 two years ago and traded him for a couple future seconds.


Yeah, agreed, I don't really see any this year, but it obviously still happens. Kessler from last draft would obviously go much higher in a redraft right now and is flirting with allstar potential (impact, if never actual achievement, it's hard as a defense first big).


Kessler was a mid 1st rd pick. He was a McDonalds AA. The OP is talking about late 2nds that could've gone undrafted in another reality like Jokic and Ginobili. So essentially a non American prospect.

I will say the next one should be in the Pacific Islands. Those guys have natural high end athletic ability. It's a good NBA guard prospect walking around out there rn.


I mean, if a guy goes #22 and then winds up being a top 5 guy from the draft (#1 so far, but I’ll give some leeway) I’d say that meets most definitions of the word steal.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#29 » by Hal14 » Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:09 pm

possibly a hidden gem..

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2275741
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#30 » by EvanZ » Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:17 pm

eminence wrote:
CP War Hawks wrote:
eminence wrote:
Yeah, agreed, I don't really see any this year, but it obviously still happens. Kessler from last draft would obviously go much higher in a redraft right now and is flirting with allstar potential (impact, if never actual achievement, it's hard as a defense first big).


Kessler was a mid 1st rd pick. He was a McDonalds AA. The OP is talking about late 2nds that could've gone undrafted in another reality like Jokic and Ginobili. So essentially a non American prospect.

I will say the next one should be in the Pacific Islands. Those guys have natural high end athletic ability. It's a good NBA guard prospect walking around out there rn.


I mean, if a guy goes #22 and then winds up being a top 5 guy from the draft (#1 so far, but I’ll give some leeway) I’d say that meets most definitions of the word steal.


I think it's very unlikely Kessler remains a top 5 pick from this Draft once it all settles down in a few years.
I was right about 3 point shooting. I expect to be right about Tacko Fall. Some coach will figure out how to use Tacko Fall. This movement towards undersized centers will sweep ng back. Back to the basket scorers will return to the NBA.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#31 » by 76ciology » Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:43 am

Another guy is Brandin Podziemski. This guy can be a Tyler Herro type player in the league
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#32 » by 76ciology » Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:52 am

I think there can be “hidden gems” because guys are still archaic in scouting players.

For instance, why would you rank guards who CANT shoot that high just because they’re long and athletic?

Another thing is the league has trend towards into an environment that values shooting+scoring very lopsidedly than other traits. A guy like Sensabaugh can be the best player in this draft. I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if Cam Thomas would be the best player in his draft if he was drafted with a top 3 pick than getting buried in the bench.

My take here is the more you absorb the data out there, the more your values in these guys gets skewed because you are taking some irrelevant data (i.e highlight dunks) that is distracting you from things that truly matters in today’s game

I think scouting nowadays is easy because the game is too simple. It’s basically ISO, PnR, Shooting with Rim Protection and switch defense. And every prospect has been practicing these skills even when they’re kids with their personal trainers.

So if you are a bad shooter, there won’t be that “eureka” moment anymore at age 24 when you’ll figure out “oh, i need to practice shooting”. You’re most likely practicing shooting all your life and your very likely gonna stay that way for your entire career.

All of this is obvious and you’d realize this 10-20 games after these guys step into the court. This happens every year. But then you tell yourself why havent u realized this before? Its because these guys are managed by very powerful agents who control the media, control their amateur teams for opportunities or have very talented highlight reel makers in youtube.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#33 » by 76ciology » Wed Mar 22, 2023 3:58 am

For instance Kessler.

He’s reflecting ATG level block numbers and defensive numbers. You dont even need to watch the entire game and you can see him deflecting cross court passes and going coast to coast.

But you dont have him in the top 5 of your mockdraft because all of those mock drafts tells you not to.

Nobody thought of drafting Banchero first overall, but come on.. look at the recent top players in the draft or the young players in the draft, they all can score and run your offense. And you’d take Jabari over that archetype?
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#34 » by EMG518 » Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:05 am

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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#35 » by clyde21 » Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:30 am

76ciology wrote:For instance Kessler.

He’s reflecting ATG level block numbers and defensive numbers. You dont even need to watch the entire game and you can see him deflecting cross court passes and going coast to coast.

But you dont have him in the top 5 of your mockdraft because all of those mock drafts tells you not to.

Nobody thought of drafting Banchero first overall, but come on.. look at the recent top players in the draft or the young players in the draft, they all can score and run your offense. And you’d take Jabari or Paolo over that archetype?


?

a lot of people (not me) had Paolo #1.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#36 » by 76ciology » Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:49 am

clyde21 wrote:
76ciology wrote:For instance Kessler.

He’s reflecting ATG level block numbers and defensive numbers. You dont even need to watch the entire game and you can see him deflecting cross court passes and going coast to coast.

But you dont have him in the top 5 of your mockdraft because all of those mock drafts tells you not to.

Nobody thought of drafting Banchero first overall, but come on.. look at the recent top players in the draft or the young players in the draft, they all can score and run your offense. And you’d take Jabari or Paolo over that archetype?


?

a lot of people (not me) had Paolo #1.


Oh.. sorry about that. But also not me. Hahaha i went with my numbers there and it had me having Holmgren at CLEAR number 1. Paolo’s numbers didnt reflect him as a #1 pick for me. But after the draft, its when it hits me that.. yeah, paolo’s archetype is the type that makes it to #1. Somebody who can be 20-30ppg scorer and run your offense in the future
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#37 » by The-Power » Wed Mar 22, 2023 6:49 am

76ciology wrote:Another thing is the league has trend towards into an environment that values shooting+scoring very lopsidedly than other traits. A guy like Sensabaugh can be the best player in this draft. I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if Cam Thomas would be the best player in his draft if he was drafted with a top 3 pick than getting buried in the bench.

How many of the top 10 players in the NBA cannot make plays for others consistently and/or defend at a high level? Of the top 20? Top 30? You won't find many if any. For most players, good scoring ability (which includes good shooting ability for most but not all players) is a necessary but certainly not a sufficient condition for stardom. There's a fundamental difference. And there's also no way a ‘potentially best player of the draft’ is just buried on the bench for extended periods of time simply due to where he was picked.

76ciology wrote:I think scouting nowadays is easy because the game is too simple. It’s basically ISO, PnR, Shooting with Rim Protection and switch defense. And every prospect has been practicing these skills even when they’re kids with their personal trainers.

The game is too simple nowadays? Defensive and offensive schemes are more complex and demanding than ever before. Ben Taylor does a great job addressing modern NBA offenses and defenses and their complexity. See for instance:



There are certain overarching strategies that now have become (almost) universal because they are necessary to keep up with today's efficiency (that's why teams want shooters at most positions, that's why you don't see a lot of offense run through the low post; or, on the other end, certain types of defenders just can't make it work any longer). But what happens on a micro-level/possession-basis in today's NBA? That's insanely complex and demanding compared to previous eras and players need to do more and more things well to succeed in the NBA.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#38 » by HiDef » Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:14 am

76ciology wrote:I think there can be “hidden gems” because guys are still archaic in scouting players.

For instance, why would you rank guards who can shoot that high just because they’re long and athletic?

Another thing is the league has trend towards into an environment that values shooting+scoring very lopsidedly than other traits. A guy like Sensabaugh can be the best player in this draft. I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if Cam Thomas would be the best player in his draft if he was drafted with a top 3 pick than getting buried in the bench.

My take here is the more you absorb the data out there, the more your values in these guys gets skewed because you are taking some irrelevant data (i.e highlight dunks) that is distracting you from things that truly matters in today’s game

I think scouting nowadays is easy because the game is too simple. It’s basically ISO, PnR, Shooting with Rim Protection and switch defense. And every prospect has been practicing these skills even when they’re kids with their personal trainers.

So if you are a bad shooter, there won’t be that “eureka” moment anymore at age 24 when you’ll figure out “oh, i need to practice shooting”. You’re most likely practicing shooting all your life and your very likely gonna stay that way for your entire career.

All of this is obvious and you’d realize this 10-20 games after these guys step into the court. This happens every year. But then you tell yourself why havent u realized this before? Its because these guys are managed by very powerful agents who control the media, control their amateur teams for opportunities or have very talented highlight reel makers in youtube.


On BBall Reference you can sort each draft by WS, VORP etc.. Inevitably half the top 10 are from the 20-50 range every year. Seems like the league is getting more talented & skilled, but there's a ton of cluster-f noise in the evaluation process.

I feel like a some of it could be cut out if teams stopped getting so hyperfixated on who has an "ELITE NBA LEVEL TALENT" in the lottery. It leads to a lot of **** like drafting Frank Nitilikina because "maybe we can teach him to play offense," maybe we can teach Josh Jackson to shoot, maybe we can teach Marvin Bagley to use his right hand, maybe we can turn Rui Hachimura into something, even if it takes 5 years and we dump him once we've done it... Low hanging fruit example in 2023 seems to be Anthony Black. Here we have a guard with all-universe lower body strength... What does it buy you?

If there's someone I think is being slept on with actual high-high-high end potential it's Nnaji. Raw, but he's got every athletic tool you could ever dream of in a rim runner. 18, 3 years pro in Spain, and Barca is using him the way the Boston Celtics might use Tacko Fall. Give him a role and tell him to go to bed every night watching RW3 film, maybe you get somewhere.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#39 » by Hal14 » Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:49 pm

76ciology wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
76ciology wrote:For instance Kessler.

He’s reflecting ATG level block numbers and defensive numbers. You dont even need to watch the entire game and you can see him deflecting cross court passes and going coast to coast.

But you dont have him in the top 5 of your mockdraft because all of those mock drafts tells you not to.

Nobody thought of drafting Banchero first overall, but come on.. look at the recent top players in the draft or the young players in the draft, they all can score and run your offense. And you’d take Jabari or Paolo over that archetype?


?

a lot of people (not me) had Paolo #1.


Oh.. sorry about that. But also not me. Hahaha i went with my numbers there and it had me having Holmgren at CLEAR number 1. Paolo’s numbers didnt reflect him as a #1 pick for me. But after the draft, its when it hits me that.. yeah, paolo’s archetype is the type that makes it to #1. Somebody who can be 20-30ppg scorer and run your offense in the future

You shouldn't just rank based on numbers. No NBA scout or GM does that.

Paolo went #1 because he was younger than Chet, MUCH stronger physically than Chet. And guys who are a chiseled 6'10", 250 lbs who are only 19 and already VERY good shot creators from all over the floor (elbows, wings, half court, in transition, wherever) who can drive, pass, shoot and defend are very valuable players in today's NBA.

Also, Chet's numbers looked better because he played a relatively weak schedule. His numbers vs top tier teams were not nearly as good.
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Re: 23' draft steals/ hidden gems with high end potential being overlooked?? 

Post#40 » by EvanZ » Wed Mar 22, 2023 7:49 pm

None of these guys are "hidden". Everyone knows all the same guys for the most part. Steal, sure. Some guys will be better than everyone than thought. But they weren't hidden.
I was right about 3 point shooting. I expect to be right about Tacko Fall. Some coach will figure out how to use Tacko Fall. This movement towards undersized centers will sweep ng back. Back to the basket scorers will return to the NBA.

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