Incident Involving Mo & Tony Brown

[paulpressey25]

yeah, normally cv's defense is bad, but it wasn't last night

what better way to send a message than to give him the playing time he wants when he is playing d, rebounding, and taking the ball to the basket

I agree....there have been nights CV has had it going and gotten the hook......it wouldn't have hurt to keep him going last night. He seems motivated to play Toronto.

You could almost make the argument he should have been put on Bosh and told this is his chance to shine, rather than sacrifice Bogut right out of the gate to foul trouble.

[worthlessBucks]

I failed to add that when Harris came into the room he reportedly said he was glad some things had come to light and agreed with Brown's assessment of the point guard play. That apparently pissed Mo off even more because all he's been told reportedly is how great he's been doing.

I'll add this to the original post.

Well Mo should be pretty ticked off then. If they're telling him one thing to his face, but behind his back and in the coaching meetings ripping Mo's play apart, that's embarrassing. Do these idiots know of constructive criticism? Professionalism? Why not have some one on one's with Mo (and every player) and seriously get to the critical flaws in their game that might be holding the team back?

And I think it's outlandish that they're ripping Mo for being a ball hog, taking poor shots, or holding the ball for too long.

He criticized the "point guard play" for about 10 minutes, talking about how they miss the open man, run the wrong plays, hold the ball for too long, hog the ball, take poor shots and so on.

Michael Redd.

This organization is a complete joke.

[carmelbrownqueen]

I also find it counter productive.

Why? Not because its false or because Mo is trying transform his game, but because it really doesn't matter.

Mo in not very good at making his teammates better and he is in fact one of the worst defenders in the league, at least ones that get big minutes.

Why bother yelling at him about it? It wont help and can only hurt by further segmenting this team. He cannot defend and though he is doing a decent job trying to transform his game, he is in truth a combo guard that is better utilized as a scorer who can fill in at PG.

Bottom line in my mind is we will not be successful with him as our starting PG. Don't yell at him, do something about it. Bench him, trade him do something.

So lets do the same thing over and over expecting different results. That sounds like a good plan. Mo knows we want him to be a better leader and distributor. And he certainly knows he needs to defend a whole lot better.

I will say that I feel ill watching our ever switching defense. I would guess that Larry K feels we are such poor defenders and cannot fight through the screens (Hey Mo!) and such, but other teams exploit the mismatches easily.

This has been a major issue all season, and although it may seem counterproductive to call him out in front of everyone.. I think what Tony Brown was trying to accomplish is making sure everything is aired out and on the table. No pointing out CV, Bell or Simmons for failing to produce while giving a pass to Redd, Mo and Bogut when their performance isn't on the level we need it to be. Sometimes tactics like this case hurt and other times it can help. The thought this season was that players would be made more accountable when they weren't playing on the level we needed them too.. and I think it's going to cause issues but if we are going to improve then it needs to be done. Sometimes players/people develop the opinion that if it's just one person approaching them about a subpar performance and others don't back that up, that they can just write that off as one person's perception. (We have all done that in some form or fashion.) It saves our ego when we can just blame it on someone else. I think Brown was holding a mirror up to the faces of our starting AND backup PG's... and someone didn't like what they saw. They didn't like being called out and it got emotional. Mo is an emotional guy.. we all know that, and this isn't the first time this has happened in a Bucks locker room..

Too me what is more important is if we see Mo Williams go out there and try to prove him wrong.. if not then we have to think more seriously about whether he should be moved. We need guys to rise to the challenge rather than sit back and complain about the approach.

Also keep in mind that many within the Bucks organization still believe that Mo Williams is CAPABLE of playing at a higher level. They believe he is capable of defending better, running the point better, and getting other players involved more. They believe he is settling into his old ways and they think it's going to hurt the team even more in the end.

[smooth 'lil balla]

This is Harris' mess, or Kohl's, whoever is making the personnel decisions. Mo should not have been resigned as he doesn't fit with the chemistry, we shouldn't have traded TJ for CV, evn with TJ's injury as CV just doesn't show heart to compete (TJ's a winner), Gadzuric was an absolutely awful signing that handcuffs the team, Simmons (although when he was signed was supposedly a defensive guy) has obviously had his struggles, the whole Bell negotiation was botched up, and to top it all off we have a coach without any head coaching experience which would command the players respect. All of the above has lead us to be just as bad an organization as the New York Knicks. For gosh sakes, Harris was willing to take on Zach Randolph! This is just disaster.

Edited to say, AND EVERYONE SINGLES OUT REDD AS THE PROBLEM? He's hands down the only guy that competes every night and deserves to be on the floor. Maybe the Heat should start blaming Dwayne Wade for losing 15 in a row. Can't he make his teammates better?

[carmelbrownqueen]

I failed to add that when Harris came into the room he reportedly said he was glad some things had come to light and agreed with Brown's assessment of the point guard play. That apparently pissed Mo off even more because all he's been told reportedly is how great he's been doing.

I'll add this to the original post.

[Chapter29]

yeah, normally cv's defense is bad, but it wasn't last night


what better way to send a message than to give him the playing time he wants when he is playing d, rebounding, and taking the ball to the basket

No doubt.

Last night was strange. He did earn PT last night and didn't receive it.

Perhaps Larry K forgot about him again. Remember earlier in the year when he said he sometimes forgets about players on the bench and was asking his assistants for reminders? Ugh.

[carmelbrownqueen]

-= original quote snipped =-



No doubt.

Last night was strange. He did earn PT last night and didn't receive it.

Perhaps Larry K forgot about him again. Remember earlier in the year when he said he sometimes forgets about players on the bench and was asking his assistants for reminders? Ugh.

You're referring to that incident with Desmond Mason.

And I don't think they forgot about CV last night..

[paulpressey25]

Edited to say, AND EVERYONE SINGLES OUT REDD AS THE PROBLEM?

There is a large contingent that put it all on Redd. We did get a number of comments knocking Redd for the fact Dunleavy scored a lot the other night, but there wasn't one comment noting that fact that 5'-2" Travis Diener, in his first NBA start ever in three seasons, went off for "15/9" against Mo.

The defense of Mo is that "16/7" makes him a top 10-15 PG so what does "15/9" from Diener mean? Neither stat means anything. It is the context of how you get those stats.

[Chapter29]

You're referring to that incident with Desmond Mason.

And I don't think they forgot about CV last night..

Same concept. My point still stands.

Then why was CV (outside of the blowout perhaps) not played when he obviously played well.

I understand that CV only gives effort when he sees fit, but when effort is given it should be rewarded.

[europa]

-= original quote snipped =-

Also keep in mind that many within the Bucks organization still believe that Mo Williams is CAPABLE of playing at a higher level. They believe he is capable of defending better, running the point better, and getting other players involved more. They believe he is settling into his old ways and they think it's going to hurt the team even more in the end.

I've heard this as well, sis. Clearly the organization believes in Mo or else they wouldn't have re-signed him last summer. But there is a frustration growing with his play and part of that is attributed to the belief that he can play better. I've heard there will be repercussions should Mo not raise his level of play, but whether that's just more hot air or actually will be followed through upon by Krystkowiak remains to be seen.

[Debit One]

-= original quote snipped =-I've heard there will be repercussions should Mo not raise his level of play, but whether that's just more hot air or actually will be followed through upon by Krystkowiak remains to be seen.

Oh, I relish the thought of Mo getting benched and watching the subsequent soap opera. It would add some interest to what is otherwise a most unforgettable season.

[Chapter29]

Also keep in mind that many within the Bucks organization still believe that Mo Williams is CAPABLE of playing at a higher level. They believe he is capable of defending better, running the point better, and getting other players involved more. They believe he is settling into his old ways and they think it's going to hurt the team even more in the end.

They are wrong. He is capable to some degree on the offensive side, but he is not capable defensively.

I hope that they aren't that dumb.

[unklchuk]

Even when **I** see CV playing pretty good defense, I suspect Coach K is seeing things he doesn't like. Like perhaps CV not implementing his share of the team defense?

If Coach has been crystal clear what CV must do, then perhaps this is more tough love that will resolve the situation with improvement by CV or divorce. If it's tunnel vision obsession on Coach's part, then it's another foolish mistake. Or, I suppose, a foregone decision to separate from CV.


One hopes Brown didn't just go off extemporaneously. One hopes that other ways of communicating with Mo have not worked, and the staff decided on direct confrontation in the team meeting. It's dangerous, but potentially helpful.


"And I think it's outlandish that they're ripping Mo for being a ball hog, taking poor shots, or holding the ball for too long."

On what planet are these things outlandish? IMO, they're all true. (With the amendment that I don't consider Mo a personality ball hog. I consider him a non-PG who doesn't see the possibilities in front of him and hogs the ball as a last resort.)


It may be The Senator who has been Mo's big supporter. Harris has never in my hearing described Mo as the PG he wants long-term.

[energee]

I'd imagine this rumor could have some validity as it involved Ivey getting between Mo and Brown. With just about any other player, Mo could have gotten around them.

[Chapter29]

I'd imagine this rumor could have some validity as it involved Ivey getting between Mo and Brown. With just about any other player, Mo could have gotten around them.

Yep and thank goodness it wasn't the other way around as Mo would have just anticapated wrong and wiff'd and Ivey may have hurt Brown.

[worthlessBucks]

Even when ***I*** see CV playing pretty good defense, I suspect Coach K is seeing things he doesn't like. Like perhaps implementing his share of the team defense?

If Coach has been crystal clear what CV must do, then perhaps this is more tough love that will resolve the situation with improvement by CV or divorce. If it's tunnel vision obsession on Coach's part, then it's another foolish mistake.


One hopes Brown didn't just go off extemporaneously. One hopes that other ways of communicating with Mo have not worked, and the staff decided on direct confrontation in the team meeting. It's dangerous, but potentially helpful.


"And I think it's outlandish that they're ripping Mo for being a ball hog, taking poor shots, or holding the ball for too long."

On what planet are these things outlandish? IMO, they're all true. (With the amendment that I don't consider Mo and personality ball hog. I consider him a non-PG who doesn't see the possibilities in front of him and hogs the ball as a last resort.

Outlandish for singling Mo out for those qualities when there are other individuals equally as guilty. Yes there is the pg element with Mo, but I too don't see Mo as being a ball hog as he has made strides to involve others and has clearly grasped the idea that Bogut needs touches within the offense (his speech in one of the meetings).

[dunhill]

Edited to say, AND EVERYONE SINGLES OUT REDD AS THE PROBLEM? He's hands down the only guy that competes every night and deserves to be on the floor. Maybe the Heat should start blaming Dwayne Wade for losing 15 in a row. Can't he make his teammates better?

But here's the problem with Miami. They don't have shooters. They don't have a legitimate post player. That's a personnel issue. They're an inside out team with no legitimate outside threat nad an inside threat that's on his last legs. The problem here is there's shooters everywhere, one and a half post players. Now complaining when one of those post players starts becoming part of the offence kills morale. As limited as his teamates are particularly Haslem do you see Wade ignoring him when he can score? GRanted this team is probably only 5 or so wins from where they realistically should be and its true that Redd is one of two legit NBA quality starters on this team, but its a question of morale and leadership. These issues don't come up very often in franchise players.

When he was out look at the tape, look at the body langauge, listen to the interviews of players. When Wade is out listen to the Miami players (who as it stands are probably worse than the Bucks man for man). THere's no question that everyone feels they are better with him. Is it the same for Redd? I don't think so at least from the tone of the interviews and comments made. Most times being a good teamate is more important on the court than occasional 50point outbursts.

[Andrew34r]

-= original quote snipped =-


Outlandish for singling Mo out for those qualities when there are other individuals equally as guilty. Yes there is the pg element with Mo, but I too don't see Mo as being a ball hog as he has made strides to involve others and has clearly grasped the idea that Bogut needs touches within the offense (his speech in one of the meetings).

Also you could add that it seems Mo has more heart than anybody on this team. When we are losing you dont see Mo joking with the other team...when he is upset you can clearly tell. Mo would make a great team leader if he can work out some of the holes in his game. I just think that if this story is true...Tony Brown is out of line. Nobody is calling out Tony Brown and the other assistant coaches on how they are coaching...maybe its time to start doing that...its clear the Bucks have a lack-luster coaching staff from Larry K. all the way down.

[Rockmaninoff]

-= original quote snipped =-


Outlandish for singling Mo out for those qualities when there are other individuals equally as guilty. Yes there is the pg element with Mo, but I too don't see Mo as being a ball hog as he has made strides to involve others and has clearly grasped the idea that Bogut needs touches within the offense (his speech in one of the meetings).

From what Europa wrote, it sounded like Brown singled out the point guard position, and Mo took personal offense to it, after at first not taking the criticism seriously.

[paulpressey25]

I don't think Mo's a ball hog this year......from the games I've seen, he's working hard at not looking to score first. The challenge that did stand out from the Warriors game is that I'm not sure Mo is naturally gifted at feeding Bogut from a half-court set.

Two to three times a game Mo will drive beautifully and then hand off to a cutting Bogut under the hoop. Everyone on the game thread then posts "Mogut!". But what I think the coaching staff is looking for is more of that halfcourt pick and roll two man game where Bogut gets the ball exactly where he needs it from Mo at the top of the key. And Bogut gets it while in some type of motion. Mo's struggled with consistency there and sometimes misses the window and the play aborts.

And other times Mo can make the entry pass, but it isn't pinpoint so Bogut has to try and reach down for it. This has resulted in a ton of turnovers the last three weeks. Bogut either can't get at the ball, or takes himself out of position to get the ball. This is what is driving the coaching staff crazy, as IMO they perceive Bogut being on the verge of breaking out as a 20ppg scorer if they can get a pinpoint passer to run the halfcourt sets.