Bucks News, Transactions, Trade Ideas - Bucks deny Pistons to talk to Horst

[ShootingtheJ]

The only reason you trade Midds for packages like these are because you don't trust his health moving forward. We have to be honest that deals like this make our team worse (but perhaps more reliable from a health standpoint)

Considering our prime star has missed games in four of the last five playoffs, and our secondary star is a little guard who turns 34 this summer, that’s enough injury risk for me to want to take going into next season.

We’ve spent the last two regular seasons trying to work around Middleton’s injuries. And in this Indy series, we got a gift where he stayed healthy and played great. If someone wants to make a serious offer of younger player(s), I’m listening hard. We waited too long to trade Jabari, and we waited too long to trade Michael Redd.

You really need to stop comparing Middleton to guys who were no where near his caliber.

[Baddy Chuck]

I dont have numbers to back it up, but i feel like Porter jr provides the benefit of being very long and athletic at least.

With Khris, defensively, it seems like all he has left is his vet savvy. I think hes staying but man does he look limited at times.

Clearly you can have a great defense with a small, turnstile pg. Look at new york. And we have Giannis, NY does not. But we desperately need our OG. We might need a younger center. I dont know. But Doc is already on the case. Let him cook

Numbers would show so far in the playoffs the Nuggets are 20.7 points better defensively without Porter. Championship run they were 4.7 better without. He's not a good defender. They've added good defenders to help cover up him, Murray (who is pretty laughable as well) and Jokic who has clear deficiencies on that end. One thing Porter does provide is offensive firepower to offset his defensive shortcomings, much like Khris does for us. Hell, Denver has basically two strong defenders on the floor usually, we could have 3 even with Dame and Midds playing the Murray/MPJ roles.

I fully agree we need to invest in the defense around these guys, I'm not saying everything is fine as is. I'm saying once again people are using some pretty evident hypocrisy.

[ShootingtheJ]

1. Middleton injuries are not some freak injuries/accident related IMO. They are all result of wear and tear and it will not get better. He is cooked. His knees, ankles, well all joints really are cooked. I will be surprised if he plays 40 games next year. It would be miracle IMO

I'd say the 2 major injuries, both slipping on wet floors, were freak injuries. I'd put KD putting his foot in Mids landing spot a freak injury. He hasn't missed time with wear and tear stuff like Giannis has.

Khris stepped on feet twice in the playoffs, but played through it, because in the playoffs, the medical staff doesn't make him sit out, and he was fine.

[slos]

Is there any way Bucks trade for Murray using this year’s salaries with just Pat + Marjon + #23 + 2031 FRP? Obviously a combination of AJ/AJJ/Livingston should be used too.

Dame (38)/Murray (10)
Murray (28)/??? (20)
Midds (38)/??? (10)
Giannis (40)/Bobby (8)
Brook (28)/Bobby (20)

Murray becoming a rich men PatBev would mean the world for this team. If only Horst is creative enough to pull this off without sacrificing one of our bigs.

[Plossum]

Midds & Brook for BI, Herb Jones and a pick back

Lol

The pick back is a nice touch.

I dont know if we would get a pick back trading Middleton for just Herb Jones at this point. They are not trading that guy.

Seems Pellies won’t be re-signing Ingram so this one might be moot.

[ShootingtheJ]

Midds & Brook for BI, Herb Jones and a pick back

Lol

The pick back is a nice touch.

I dont know if we would get a pick back trading Middleton for just Herb Jones at this point. They are not trading that guy.

Seems Pellies won’t be re-signing Ingram so this one might be moot.

He's still under contract, they're just not extending him. Trading Mids because of durability questions is one thing, but trading him for a less durable player is another. No way the Pels do the rest of this deal though.

[ShootingtheJ]

Is there any way Bucks trade for Murray using this year’s salaries with just Pat + Marjon + #23 + 2031 FRP? Obviously a combination of AJ/AJJ/Livingston should be used too.

Dame (38)/Murray (10)
Murray (28)/??? (20)
Midds (38)/??? (10)
Giannis (40)/Bobby (8)
Brook (28)/Bobby (20)

Murray becoming a rich men PatBev would mean the world for this team. If only Horst is creative enough to pull this off without sacrificing one of our bigs.

Murray has been vocal about not wanting to be in that role, the same role he'd have here. I think the Hawks move Young instead though.

[German Athens]

Multiple people on the trade board have proposed the framework of brook for WCJ. We would then create an 11M TPE to use as well which could be quite valuable for a team looking to shed salary.

Mke: WCJ, Deandre Hunter, Thybulle
Orl: Brook
Atl: Bobby, TPE
Por: Pat, 23

We,ve talked plenty about Thybulle around here, so I won’t elaborate about him. But the trio we get back is all in their mid 20’s, entering their primes, and have role-player skillsets right now.

We get more versatile defensively with nice perimeter size. WCJ and Hunter may also be two guys who would look better on a new team. WCJ is still a cerebral big man, who’s a good passer, can shoot out to the three point line, bang some with bigs defensively, and move his feet pretty well on the perimeter. He’s comfortable playing higher in the drop than brook is, but he’s also not a big shot blocker.

Hunter still is a tantalizing skillset on paper. Pretty strong and long wing who moves his feet pretty well defensively. He can spot up and shoot off screens. He’s somewhat comfortable attacking closeouts with a pull-up and is athletic enough to attack closeouts with straight line drives and finishes. He was really effective as a pnr scorer this year on minuscule volume, so who knows if it’s real but there’s some skill there.

Both WCJ and Hunter’s biggest issue is health, though, so maybe we wouldn’t want to go that route. I like the talent though.

[KidA24]

Speaking of Brook..his 3p% would be 5 points higher at least if he stood at the line.. his overhead release is ridiculously high.. who is he scared of that's going to block it that he has to be an extra 5 ft back?

Tell me you don't understand NBA spacing without telling me you don't understand NBA spacing.

[Sigra]

2. He is terrible defender now because he cant move the way he did before. Look at Denver and Minnesota and how they are built. The recipe is so simple. Surround 2 attackers with defenders. We should do same and surround Giannis and Dame with defenders.

When you say look at Denver, are you referencing Michael Porter Jr or Jamal Murray as a "defender" in their lineup, just so we're clear.

Porter is now solid defender. And Jokic is very solid. Only Murray is bad defender in that starting 5 IMO
Minnesota also has only KAT as bad defender. Othe 4 are very good at defense.
We will be able to survive Dame as our bad defender. Dame, Midds, Beasly was so wrong.

[raferfenix]

More I think about it the more Bobby seems like the odd man out. His scoring punch is valuable but Giannis and Dame need a versatile defender and an athlete to run with more.

That and of our too guys he’s the only one that’s had credible reports of trade talk even aside from insider whispers here.

Bobby is in his prime years but is going to want a fat extension before he opts out next year too. If the Bucks don’t think he’s a great fit alongside Dame and Giannis in the starting lineup you deal him sooner than later.

[ShootingtheJ]

2. He is terrible defender now because he cant move the way he did before. Look at Denver and Minnesota and how they are built. The recipe is so simple. Surround 2 attackers with defenders. We should do same and surround Giannis and Dame with defenders.

When you say look at Denver, are you referencing Michael Porter Jr or Jamal Murray as a "defender" in their lineup, just so we're clear.

Porter is now solid defender. And Jokic is very solid. Only Murray is bad defender in that starting 5 IMO
Minnesota also has only KAT as bad defender. Othe 4 are very good at defense.
We will be able to survive Dame as our bad defender. Dame, Midds, Beasly was so wrong.

Jokic is solid? Nope. Smart, but can't defend his man, nor the pick and roll. He gets by because some teams have very limited bigs, but he can get killed versus the best.

There isn't a metric that says Khris is a bad defender

[Licensed to Il]

When you say look at Denver, are you referencing Michael Porter Jr or Jamal Murray as a "defender" in their lineup, just so we're clear.

Porter is now solid defender. And Jokic is very solid. Only Murray is bad defender in that starting 5 IMO
Minnesota also has only KAT as bad defender. Othe 4 are very good at defense.
We will be able to survive Dame as our bad defender. Dame, Midds, Beasly was so wrong.

Jokic is solid? Nope. Smart, but can't defend his man, nor the pick and roll. He gets by because some teams have very limited bigs, but he can get killed versus the best.

There isn't a metric that says Khris is a bad defender

I think this is an interesting point about Jokic. He's smart, he drops to where he needs to be, and he's physically a load (hard to displace for rebounds). And in the modern game, this might be the most difficult defender to exploit. You need 5 good shooters, and you need to play at a higher pace than Denver. But the second you try to do those two things (to exploit Jokic) you are playing exactly how they want you to play.

[Ron Swanson]

Just assigning some pick values to Brook/Bobby:

MKE Out: Brook, #23, Marjon
MKE In: Cam Johnson, #12

OKC Out: #12
OKC In: Brook

BKN Out: Cam Johnson
BKN In: #23, Marjon

- Bobby and #33 for #13, Davion Mitchell, and Chris Duarte

Dame/Mitchell
Pat/AJJ/Green
Middleton/Duarte
Johnson/Livingston/Thanasis
Giannis

That's your roster on June 25th without any additional moves and draft selections. The question is, what's the best player or best collection of players you can get with #12, #13, and if you have to throw it in there, a 2031 1st?

[ShootingtheJ]

Porter is now solid defender. And Jokic is very solid. Only Murray is bad defender in that starting 5 IMO
Minnesota also has only KAT as bad defender. Othe 4 are very good at defense.
We will be able to survive Dame as our bad defender. Dame, Midds, Beasly was so wrong.

Jokic is solid? Nope. Smart, but can't defend his man, nor the pick and roll. He gets by because some teams have very limited bigs, but he can get killed versus the best.

There isn't a metric that says Khris is a bad defender

I think this is an interesting point about Jokic. He's smart, he drops to where he needs to be, and he's physically a load (hard to displace for rebounds). And in the modern game, this might be the most difficult defender to exploit. You need 5 good shooters, and you need to play at a higher pace than Denver. But the second you try to do those two things (to exploit Jokic) you are playing exactly how they want you to play.

Easiest way to exploit Jokic is the way the Bucks did it. We had our bigs attack him with cross over dribbles, and it was an easy win. Not everyone has bigs like ours though.

[ShootingtheJ]

Just assigning some pick values to Brook/Bobby:

MKE Out: Brook, #23, Marjon
MKE In: Cam Johnson, #12

OKC Out: #12
OKC In: Brook

BKN Out: Cam Johnson
BKN In: #23, Marjon

- Bobby and #33 for #13, Davion Mitchell, and Chris Duarte

Dame/Mitchell
Pat/AJJ/Green
Middleton/Duarte
Johnson/Livingston/Thanasis
Giannis

That's your roster on June 25th without any additional moves and draft selections. The question is, what's the best player or best collection of players you can get with #12, #13, and if you have to throw it in there, a 2031 1st?

No way OKC gives up #12 for Brook Lopez. They need rebounding, and a PF.

Sacramento needs shot blocking. They'd be the team that might be interested in Brook.

Bobby fits with teams that need help on the glass. That's Memphis and OKC.

Also, Cam Johnson doesn't rebound. We need a forward who helps on the glass.

[-Jragon-]

Speaking of Brook..his 3p% would be 5 points higher at least if he stood at the line.. his overhead release is ridiculously high.. who is he scared of that's going to block it that he has to be an extra 5 ft back?

Tell me you don't understand NBA spacing without telling me you don't understand NBA spacing.

Keep guys out of the lane for Giannis, got it. Shooting 40%+ would also do that. How many 30ft 3 pointers did Brook make in the playoffs? It's not enough of a threat. He should just get more deadly and a little quicker release right at the line and dudes will be up there. Not one other team has a C trying to shoot halfway to the logo; must be overkill. Miles Turner and Horford killed us in the playoffs and we couldn't get out to them --- right at the 3 point line.

[-Jragon-]

750 point differential is easy to skew with a few blowouts against scrub teams. Let's see what the record is without guys and see who is most important.

Bucks without Giannis this year 4 - 5.. that's a losing record; we must really need that guy
Bucks record without Dame this year 1 - 8... that's a terrible record, but realgm guys -- trade Dame he's washed
Bucks record without Middleton 18 - 9... wait, that's pretty good actually; maybe defense and team speed matters more than 1v1 in a team sport

[-Jragon-]

they just want something different, even if it's the same (or worse).

Ironically we just went through this with removing Bud too. And now the perfect being the enemy of good philosophy is creeping into the playing ranks.

Given Midds just carried a sorry arse squad through the Playoffs that would struggle to win 30 reg season games, I find this conversation baffling.

Carried us straight out of the playoffs by losing 4 out of 6 games.

[Ron Swanson]

The thing about OKC's "asset war chest" that everyone always seems to ignore is....those draft picks all kinda suck. Outside of the 2027 pick swap with the Clippers, and maybe the 2028 Dallas 1st assuming Luka might not be there, it's nothing but Top-10 and lottery protected picks, 2nd-rounders, etc.

They absolutely cannot "trade for anyone they want" because asset quality matters. Teams want unprotected 1st's and pick swaps way out in the future, and OKC is in a unique situation where A) their own pick swaps are worthless, and B) they can easily afford to consolidate mediocre assets for a luxury player (like Brook or Bobby) where their financial investment wouldn't be major. Whether it's the 12th pick in this draft, or combining 2-3 of those lesser future picks, it makes a bunch of sense for them to flip those for an older veteran dude that can be the difference in a playoff series, ala what Boston did to acquire Jrue once we traded him to Portland.