Hawks/Cavs/Pelicans

[louc1970]

Pelicans send Ingram, Jones
Pelicans receive LeVert, Garland
Pelicans get the PG they need and can draft big of their choosing with #17 (Filipowski, Messi, Ware). Move Jones prior to Murphy's resigning which will cost the team enough to put them near the tax.
Garland/McCollum/Murphy/Williamson/Nance (Filipowski - stretch the floor and let Williamson work inside).

Cavs send LeVert, Garland
Cavs receive Griffin, Jones, Murray
Cavs get a defensive PG who can play on/off the ball with Mitchell. Adds size and comes with a team friendly contract. Jones is added to reduce Pels payroll and create time for Murphy to start.
Look for a new home for Strus.
Murray/Mitchell/Okoro/Mobley/Allen

Hawks trade Griffin and Murray
Hawks return Ingram
Hawks are able to build a team Ingram, Young, Johnson. With the first pick being Sarr/Clingan, Hawks have a center to replace Okongwu or Capela.
Young/Hunter/Ingram/Johnson/Sarr

And everyone is under the tax.

[Threezus]

I wouldn't give Murray by himself for Ingram with his contract situation much less adding Griffin to it. Murray with his contract is worth more than Ingram on a 1 year. Also Ingram will want the max and way more than Murray which he isn't worth that much more. Herb Jones is a guy i would really like coming to atlanta if we trade for ingram.

[jbk1234]

Murray is a worse fit next to Mitchell, who hasn't extended yet, than Garland. Garland can at least play off ball and space the floor.

[dms269]

I'm not a big fan of the Ingram to Atlanta ideas. Bad contract situation with him being expiring wanting a max or near max deal, which would be paying him almost double of Murray. I wonder about the fit as well as he isn't exactly known for his defense and his offensive game has changed (and not for the better).

[Threezus]

Murray is a worse fit next to Mitchell, who hasn't extended yet, than Garland. Garland can at least play off ball and space the floor.

I actually agree with this because murray nor trae are very good off ball much they struggle to much.

[Texas Chuck]

I think its an argument that's been had a bunch who has more value BI or Garland, but I know I wouldn't add Herb Jones for sure.

[ADMVP]

Any deal including Herb Jones needs to bring back Mitchell at worst. Even then, Herb is 100% off limits basically. You can't trade him as a team trying to contend.

[mcfly1204]

Any deal including Herb Jones needs to bring back Mitchell at worst. Even then, Herb is 100% off limits basically. You can't trade him as a team trying to contend.

I get this is hyperbole, but what a statement.

[ADMVP]

Any deal including Herb Jones needs to bring back Mitchell at worst. Even then, Herb is 100% off limits basically. You can't trade him as a team trying to contend.

I get this is hyperbole, but what a statement.

It's not. Herb is off limits due to his contract and value. He's one of the best perimeter defenders who shoots 43% from 3.

[jbk1234]

Any deal including Herb Jones needs to bring back Mitchell at worst. Even then, Herb is 100% off limits basically. You can't trade him as a team trying to contend.

I get this is hyperbole, but what a statement.

It's not. Herb is off limits due to his contract and value. He's one of the best perimeter defenders who shoots 43% from 3.

He shot .418 from 3 on 3.6 apg last year which was .08 higher than the season before. Okoro shot .39 from 3 on 3.1 apg and I've seen him pass on enough open looks to know what that means.

[ADMVP]

I get this is hyperbole, but what a statement.

It's not. Herb is off limits due to his contract and value. He's one of the best perimeter defenders who shoots 43% from 3.

He shot .418 from 3 on 3.6 apg last year which was .08 higher than the season before. Okoro shot .39 from 3 on 3.1 apg and I've seen him pass on enough open looks to know what that means.

42%*
What's your point?

[Texas Chuck]

It's not. Herb is off limits due to his contract and value. He's one of the best perimeter defenders who shoots 43% from 3.

He shot .418 from 3 on 3.6 apg last year which was .08 higher than the season before. Okoro shot .39 from 3 on 3.1 apg and I've seen him pass on enough open looks to know what that means.

42%*
What's your point?

The value in shooting for role players is way less about percentages and way more about two things:

How do defenses treat them. Do defenses hesitate to leave them in rotations? If yes, that really helps spacing. If defenses don't respect them, a lot of the spacing benefits are lost. Take Dallas and Dante Exum this year. He shot 49% from 3, but teams don't respect him as a shooter so the spacing suffered when he was on the court. Especially true on low volume shooters.

What do they do when the offense creates a shot for them. Do they shoot with confidence and no hesitation? When they don't, again it really hurts the offense. For another Mavs example(don't want to risk offending anyone by using their player) when Delon Wright was a Mav he also shot a really good percentage from 3, but he also passed up open shots multiple times every game. And that hurts because you might not get another good shot that possession.

I'm not saying Herb isn't guarded or hesitates. But jbk is talking about that issue with Okoro and I gave other examples. Percentages alone don't tell the story. Bertans shot poorly (by his standards in Dallas) yet he still had massive spacing implications because teams are so scared to leave him. Even without shooting as well as Herb, I assure you he provides more spacing benefits and that's what actually matters for a role player with a catch and shoot role on offense.

[YayBasketball]

The discussion about Herb is intriguing. Today we'll find out if he's first team all-defense, and yea his shooting has improved but will probably never be a *gravity 'have to guard him' shooter.

For a Pelicans team with a non shooting star in Zion who needs 3 pt. shooting around him to maximize the roster fit--- having Herb as a core starter and finishing player is less than ideal, despite the stellar defense and transition scoring and great intangibles.

I agree that he will likely not be traded because of his strengths and value contract-- but I do wonder how trade options could open up if he was available in talks. It would allow for easier roster configuration for a non-spacing Center like Allen, with only Zion and the Center as the non-spacing players in the lineup.

Pels also have Dyson waiting in the wings who is an elite defender in his own right, with untapped offenseive potential. With similar strengths and lack of great spacing shooting, DD likely won't get the development path he needs to succeed with Herb cemented in ad a core piece. Still, Herb is awesome and he likely won't be traded.

[Euphonetiks]

The discussion about Herb is intriguing. Today we'll find out if he's first team all-defense, and yea his shooting has improved but will probably never be a *gravity 'have to guard him' shooter.

For a Pelicans team with a non shooting star in Zion who needs 3 pt. shooting around him to maximize the roster fit--- having Herb as a core starter and finishing player is less than ideal, despite the stellar defense and transition scoring and great intangibles.

I agree that he will likely not be traded because of his strengths and value contract-- but I do wonder how trade options could open up if he was available in talks. It would allow for easier roster configuration for a non-spacing Center like Allen, with only Zion and the Center as the non-spacing players in the lineup.

Pels also have Dyson waiting in the wings who is an elite defender in his own right, with untapped offenseive potential. With similar strengths and lack of great spacing shooting, DD likely won't get the development path he needs to succeed with Herb cemented in ad a core piece. Still, Herb is awesome and he likely won't be traded.

Herb will never be a gravity shooter. But he can sit in the right corner and hit 3's at a decent clip. If we were to trade for Allen, then we would have 2 starters playing 60+minutes attempting no 3's and almost no midrange. It's the non-spacing C that makes roster construction with Zion complicated, not Herb. Starting a rim running center next to Zion makes it very difficult to play anyone but high volume perimeter shooters alongside them. So Dyson minutes would be limited because Zion-Dys-JA would not work.

So the starting/closing lineup becomes CJ-PLAYER-Trey-Zion-Allen

With Allen that 5th spot would have to be a high volume perimeter shooter who is at least a competent defender. How much do those cost? After we find that 5th starter, is the defense even any better with Allen over Herb?

For context Pels were 6th in defense this year, one spot ahead of 7th place Cleveland.

[ADMVP]

He shot .418 from 3 on 3.6 apg last year which was .08 higher than the season before. Okoro shot .39 from 3 on 3.1 apg and I've seen him pass on enough open looks to know what that means.

42%*
What's your point?

The value in shooting for role players is way less about percentages and way more about two things:

How do defenses treat them. Do defenses hesitate to leave them in rotations? If yes, that really helps spacing. If defenses don't respect them, a lot of the spacing benefits are lost. Take Dallas and Dante Exum this year. He shot 49% from 3, but teams don't respect him as a shooter so the spacing suffered when he was on the court. Especially true on low volume shooters.

What do they do when the offense creates a shot for them. Do they shoot with confidence and no hesitation? When they don't, again it really hurts the offense. For another Mavs example(don't want to risk offending anyone by using their player) when Delon Wright was a Mav he also shot a really good percentage from 3, but he also passed up open shots multiple times every game. And that hurts because you might not get another good shot that possession.

I'm not saying Herb isn't guarded or hesitates. But jbk is talking about that issue with Okoro and I gave other examples. Percentages alone don't tell the story. Bertans shot poorly (by his standards in Dallas) yet he still had massive spacing implications because teams are so scared to leave him. Even without shooting as well as Herb, I assure you he provides more spacing benefits and that's what actually matters for a role player with a catch and shoot role on offense.

I agree, but Herb is also 1st Team All Defense. My point was about his perceived value here. I wasn't trying to infer that he was Curry and Gary Payton reincarnated. I just don't agree with the value here.