Game #7: LAC (3-3) @ NETS (3-4) WED 11/8 4:30 PM—CHANNEL 5

[esqtvd]

Not encouraging, but they can't continue to shoot this poorly. They were missing a lot of wide open 3s. There does need to be another trade though to restore some more roster balance.

Clippers still need a leader. Kawhi is the only one with a ring. But he was NOT the leader on either of his championship teams.

Russ is a leader, but not unfortunately a winner. Too many turnovers and missed shots. The career triple-doubles are nice but we're just not talking Bird or Magic here.

PG and Beard are NOT selfish players, but have never had the Eye of the Tiger.


When our best player, Kawhi, steps up and makes it HIS team, then we will win. If not, not.

[clipperlover]

The next 8 games that Lue wants to see some things.

Dallas/Memphis/Denver/Houston/SA/SA/NOP/Dallas

Feeling confident?

It's going to take a miracle to win a single one of those games.

Give me a break. These guys aren't going to lose 8 of those games. They will probably go 6-2.

A few changes Lue needs to make:
1. Limit the time Kawhi has to play with Harden. Harden has been a HUGE negative in the +/-.
2. Don't let Harden start the 4th quarter. Most of his terrible +/- is from the start of the 4th quarters. We can't force ourselves to battle back from a 10 pt deficit in the 4th when we ended the 3rd with the score close.

Some immediate changes the front office needs to make:
Fine Lue every time he puts a line-up on the court with more than 3 guys shorter than 6'6" for more than 2 minutes.
Fine Lue every time he has the big 4 play more than 32 minutes in a regular season game. Having 4 players of that caliber shouldn't require any of them to log 36 minutes in a regular season game. I know Plumlee is out, but those minutes should go to the bench guys like Diabate and Brown rather than use the Big 4 as a crutch.

[donemilio21]

Lue has to figure it out. The offense looks like each star takes a turn to score. If we keep moving the ball then there's no way we lose these games.

Moving the ball effectively is easier said than done, and you have two guys who are very ball dominant for many years where moving the ball is not second nature.

You want to move the ball with purpose, you want to create intial actions to shift the defense, place guys in their spots and produce efficient shots.

Of course this my turn your turn can "work", they aren't going to just keep having bad games if they don't change anything, BUT, yea, you're not maximizing the players.

Problem is, are we going to be like the Lakers and keep trying to fit the square peg into the round hole, or can Lue and the players have the stomach to make the drastic changes (on of Harden or Westbrook off the bench), Harden doesn't need to be a system. Run the offense as a more motion centric offese and utilize a lot of DHO between the main guys, etc

Restbrook would be terrible off the bench. Harden on the other hand would lock down 6MOY by end of February if he started coming off the bench. Would he accept that role ? Unlikely. You would need him to buy in " hey beard, you will still shoot 15-20 shots a game and play 28-30min. just off the bench. " similar to Lou Will and J-Crossover.

[Wammy Giveaway]

I know Plumlee is out, but those minutes should go to the bench guys like Diabate and Brown rather than use the Big 4 as a crutch.

Cries for playing young players have increased heavily, even more so with this 3-game losing streak. But we know that Lue will never play young players because of stigma.

Young players/rookies equals tanking, losing, lottery.

Old players/veterans equals playoffs, winning, championship.

Why are people so desperate to see rookies when coaches will never play them? The only one who I think gives them a little more leeway is Popovich, and I think we can add Malone after using Braun in their Nuggets Finals run. But still, the stigma runs rampant, perhaps ever since Phil Jackson said that rookies are lower than whale turds. The kicker: nobody was allowed to dispute this because Jackson won 11 titles behind a trio of three-peats, the players he coached were G.O.A.T.s (Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant), and he was coaching the Lakers, the greatest basketball team of all time who once saved the league from bankruptcy; argue, and you would automatically lose on account of lack of your quantity of gold... that is, if you even have any.

But Clippers allow their personal emotions to get in the way of business. They desire to be loved, respected and worshiped like the Lakers more than actually competing for titles. The longer the championship drought continues, the more envious they get of their Big Brother, and the desperate they become into making a move for the sake of wanting attention.

[Dynamix]

I'm most definitely not having fun yet.

[Captain Ballmer]

Not encouraging, but they can't continue to shoot this poorly. They were missing a lot of wide open 3s. There does need to be another trade though to restore some more roster balance.

The average scoring level in the league increased to a point volume scorers like Norman Powell don't worth anything and definitely not a needle mover. We get Hyland for 2 future 2nd and you can easily get guys like Sexton, Clarkson, Graham, Gordon or Malik Beasley for even cheaper.

We don't have value on our bench to trade. We could fina a value in trading Mann+Zu but in a world you need a Center, hustle, rebounding, size, athleticism you better find that guy. Capela or John Collins looks promising but don't know that move any needle seriously.

To me this team needs Harden be the system. PG and Kawhi to compliment the system and Mann&Russ&Tucker&Zu for soldiers.

[og15]

Well, I'm liking this, the obstacle is the way, glad this isn't starting out easy and building ego's for these guys thinking the are something. Struggle will force them to build some resilience or sink trying. You have 70+ games vs mid-season trade where it is on the fly.

Our "Big 4" have all been in the league for 12-14 years now. It's wishful thinking to expect the next 70 games to change who they are. PG will always be wildly inconsistent, Harden will always be a diva who wilts under adversity and doesn't do the little things to help the team win, etc. These guys are set in their ways at this stage of their career and it doesn't appear to be a good mix. Another drawback of building a team around aging veterans in their 30s.

No one is going to become a new type of player, that's a fools errand. Despite common misconception, Paul George's consistency as more of a tier 2 star is actually quite fine. He's not consistent if compared to Kawhi or LeBron, but his consistency is perfectly fine for a second tier star. Problem is that people still want to foolishly act like the 2020 playoffs was the norm for him even though it is a wild outlier when compared to previous and the ones following.

PG will be inconsistent with his scoring and shooting. I have that built into any expectations, that doesn't prevent teams from winning though because most championship teams second guy is at a similar level of consistency. The important thing is how you make up for that.

The goal shouldn't be to expect guys to become something new. The goal should be to make the team more than simply the sum of its parts, and definitely not less than. It's finding cohesiveness and flow.

I don't care what this guy was in the past, it's about what you can do here in this situation in this role. We know all the career losers or disapointments who get put in the right situation and become much more, even champions.

That's what they need to figure out in 70 games, not how to make PG more consistent or how to make Harden not inconsistent in the playoffs. Instead how to work through that, what's the alternate option when they don't have it. How to work off having another guy to help. How to maximize 1/2, 1/3, 2/3 pick and rolls vs just using the big to pick and roll while they all watch each other.

[og15]

Lue has to figure it out. The offense looks like each star takes a turn to score. If we keep moving the ball then there's no way we lose these games.

Moving the ball effectively is easier said than done, and you have two guys who are very ball dominant for many years where moving the ball is not second nature.

You want to move the ball with purpose, you want to create intial actions to shift the defense, place guys in their spots and produce efficient shots.

Of course this my turn your turn can "work", they aren't going to just keep having bad games if they don't change anything, BUT, yea, you're not maximizing the players.

Problem is, are we going to be like the Lakers and keep trying to fit the square peg into the round hole, or can Lue and the players have the stomach to make the drastic changes (on of Harden or Westbrook off the bench), Harden doesn't need to be a system. Run the offense as a more motion centric offese and utilize a lot of DHO between the main guys, etc

Restbrook would be terrible off the bench. Harden on the other hand would lock down 6MOY by end of February if he started coming off the bench. Would he accept that role ? Unlikely. You would need him to buy in " hey beard, you will still shoot 15-20 shots a game and play 28-30min. just off the bench. " similar to Lou Will and J-Crossover.

I actually agree that I would prefer Harden off the bench, and I would market it more like Manu Ginobili than like Jamal or Lou Will, but egos are too fragile for that, and you can avoid that whole situation anyways.

The alternative option is just doing it via rotations:
1st Quarter:
Westbrook/Harden: 4 mins
Harden: 6 mins
Westbrook: 2 mins

2nd Quarter:
Westbrook: 4 mins
Harden: 4 mins
Westbrook/Harden: 4 mins

3rd Quarter:
Westbrook/Harden: 4 mins
Westbrook: 4 mins
Harden: 4 mins

4th Quarter:
Harden: 4 mins
Westbrook: 3 mins
Westbrook/Harden: 5 mins

Total:
Harden: 35 mins, Alone: 18 mins
Westbrook: 30 mins, Alone: 13 mins
Together: 17 mins

Regardless of starting or off the bench they will play minutes together. Here you stagger them through the 48 minutes, giving you a point guard on the court at all times, but minimizing their together time. Westbrook gets a little over one quarter alone, Harden a quarter and a half alone. The closing lineup is the more iffy one, those last 4 minutes will be more flexible based on feel of the game.

Last night they were on the floor together for 26 minutes, that's too much in my opinion, but that's just me. This method would give them 9 fewer minutes together per game than they had last night for example.

I like Westbrook in the 30-31 minute range as it seems like that's the range to get maximum effort out of him on both ends.

[ERClips]

Harden as 6th man is the move

[og15]

Harden as 6th man is the move

That's the move when you don't have a fragile ego cry baby. You always have to preserve team chemistry and morale unless it will tank everything else you're trying to do. I really don't think the guy who was saying he isn't appreciated enough is going to be the one to bench.

I'd say just stagger the minutes, because bench or start, they will still end up being on the floor together, so why have the whole ego issue vs just doing the same thing despite them starting.

[MartinToVaught]

Harden as 6th man is the move

He'll quit and demand a trade the moment that's suggested to him.

Of course, he'll still quit and demand a trade as the losing streak continues. It's a no-win situation that so many fans begged this team to get themselves into.

[KL2]

I'm most definitely not having fun yet.

It’s not just about not having fun yet. I’ve seen nothing that’s hopeful that things will work out in time either. There’s no balance to the roster and not a lot of avenues to make moves in that direction.

The guys have talked about sacrifice and making it work but bench one of them and it’ll be seen as they were the problem. They could have a good locker room environment but the media will have a field day with it. You can’t block out all the noise.

The only moves Lue has here is staggering minutes but he needs 10 games to figure out what everyone else all ready has.

My guess Zu gets benched and they go small. Question is who starts. Mann or Tucker?

[whatisacenter]

As an outsider I never understood why the Clippers even wanted Harden. You all had got the best out of Russ at this point of his career and on a good contract and then went and added a guy who needs the ball in his hands to be effective as does Russ. Just doesn't make sense to me.

[og15]

As an outsider I never understood why the Clippers even wanted Harden. You all had got the best out of Russ at this point of his career and on a good contract and then went and added a guy who needs the ball in his hands to be effective as does Russ. Just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm going to assume that part of the reason is that the management due to the history of the past 4 seasons doesn't trust that both PG and Kawhi will be healthy for a whole playoff run.

By getting Harden they add another playmaker and scorer who can at least help to tide the storm through a first or second round series if one of them is to get injured.

[wakelaunch1]

The next 8 games that Lue wants to see some things.

Dallas/Memphis/Denver/Houston/SA/SA/NOP/Dallas

Feeling confident?

It's going to take a miracle to win a single one of those games.

If we lose to Memphis I may have to follow another team for half the season for mental health reasons

You might want to look around. ive never been more down on what I have seen for these last few games. Nothing makes any sense. Its a one pass offense, and if paul george or kawhi take the ball up, its a zero pass offense. How do you not do screen and rolls with Harden and Kawhi? These two should be legit awesome together. I think Harden and Kawhi offensively make so much sense together but with PG and Russ and Zubac. Its a cluster f.

I think Russ needs to play with Bones. Those two together have a lot of chemistry. Zubac needs to play with Kobe Brown. We need to blend our offensive players with our defensive players. Having the big 4 with Zubac is maybe the worst basketball i have seen and then the bench is an absolute mess.

Harden
Kawhi
Powell
Brown
Zubac

Bones
Russ
PG
Mann
Tucker

[Scoundreldays]

Harden and Russ are going to have to put their egos aside (More Harden than Russ) and follow the example of CP3. Don't know if anyone here has watched the Warriors, but CP3 as a super 6th man has made the bench unit look amazing. I also think Russ is a better fit with Zu than Harden.

[Scoundreldays]

It's going to take a miracle to win a single one of those games.

If we lose to Memphis I may have to follow another team for half the season for mental health reasons

You might want to look around. ive never been more down on what I have seen for these last few games. Nothing makes any sense. Its a one pass offense, and if paul george or kawhi take the ball up, its a zero pass offense. How do you not do screen and rolls with Harden and Kawhi? These two should be legit awesome together. I think Harden and Kawhi offensively make so much sense together but with PG and Russ and Zubac. Its a cluster f.

I think Russ needs to play with Bones. Those two together have a lot of chemistry. Zubac needs to play with Kobe Brown. We need to blend our offensive players with our defensive players. Having the big 4 with Zubac is maybe the worst basketball i have seen and then the bench is an absolute mess.

Harden
Kawhi
Powell
Brown
Zubac

Bones
Russ
PG
Mann
Tucker

I actually like how you have the big 4 staggered. I think Harden and Kawhi would fit great since they are slower paced players. Russ seems to unlock PG but will egos allow it. If the lineups are mixed and matched I think this could be a fairly solid lineup but EGOs are the biggest hurdle.

[MartinToVaught]

I'm going to assume that part of the reason is that the management due to the history of the past 4 seasons doesn't trust that both PG and Kawhi will be healthy for a whole playoff run.

If that was their logic, then the trade makes even less sense, not more, than it already does. That means they leveraged what was left of our future for the next decade while simultaneously having no confidence that the players they're trying to build around in the short term will be available when it matters. And their solution was to bring in one of the worst playoff performers of all time. They had it completely ass-backwards.

If Kawhi and PG get injured again, this team still has zero chance in any playoff series with Harden. They'll be lucky to win a game, and if they do, it'll probably be thanks to Russ, who we already had and who cost us nothing. That's assuming this team can even make the playoffs at all with or without injuries, which is already questionable in and of itself.

If they truly didn't believe in Kawhi and PG's health, the logical thing to do was to at least hold on to our remaining draft capital for this season and wait for them to prove they can stay healthy before making any more moves. Personally, if I were them, I would have been looking to trade Kawhi and PG after last season.

[madmaxmedia]

Lue has to figure it out. The offense looks like each star takes a turn to score. If we keep moving the ball then there's no way we lose these games.

Moving the ball effectively is easier said than done, and you have two guys who are very ball dominant for many years where moving the ball is not second nature.

You want to move the ball with purpose, you want to create intial actions to shift the defense, place guys in their spots and produce efficient shots.

Of course this my turn your turn can "work", they aren't going to just keep having bad games if they don't change anything, BUT, yea, you're not maximizing the players.

Problem is, are we going to be like the Lakers and keep trying to fit the square peg into the round hole, or can Lue and the players have the stomach to make the drastic changes (on of Harden or Westbrook off the bench), Harden doesn't need to be a system. Run the offense as a more motion centric offese and utilize a lot of DHO between the main guys, etc

Right now I think the players are in no man's land. They want to share and defer to each other, but don't really know how. For the ball to move around effectively, the off-ball players have to really make it happen. Otherwise the player with the ball is left to iso and pick up a help defender and then dish. Or we need to run pick n rolls a lot more quickly and decisively, so you're not doing it with 8 seconds left on the shot clock and are forced into bad decisions.

Until we learn to do some of these things, the better thing is simply for the players to stop overthinking and literally just take turns iso'ing because they'll be more decisive- even though that's not what we want in the long run.

[madmaxmedia]

No one is going to become a new type of player, that's a fools errand. Despite common misconception, Paul George's consistency as more of a tier 2 star is actually quite fine. He's not consistent if compared to Kawhi or LeBron, but his consistency is perfectly fine for a second tier star. Problem is that people still want to foolishly act like the 2020 playoffs was the norm for him even though it is a wild outlier when compared to previous and the ones following.

PG will be inconsistent with his scoring and shooting. I have that built into any expectations, that doesn't prevent teams from winning though because most championship teams second guy is at a similar level of consistency. The important thing is how you make up for that.

It can be maddening because he looks so smooth and effortless in the good games that there seems to be the potential for more consistency, but it's just not really in him. That's why he is a 2nd tier player, but yeah that's not the problem because that's still really, really good. It's not like it averages out to a 20/5/5 guy on 43%/35%/75% splits, his good and bad results in a really good average line.

I would like to see more catch and shoot opportunities for him. He's not an absolute deadeye sharpshooter, but he's a very good shooter who doesn't need much clearance due to his size and length and high release point. If all he did was shoot reasonably open 3 pointers all game long, I think that wins more games than it loses for us (not that I actually want him to do only that.)

That's what they need to figure out in 70 games, not how to make PG more consistent or how to make Harden not inconsistent in the playoffs. Instead how to work through that, what's the alternate option when they don't have it. How to work off having another guy to help. How to maximize 1/2, 1/3, 2/3 pick and rolls vs just using the big to pick and roll while they all watch each other.

Yeah I think you mentioned in another post, we have to learn and work just to get to the point where we are hopefully equal to the sum of the parts. That could easily take 30 games, and then if guys are really dedicated try to get to that next level of actually being better than the sum of the parts. That may or may not happen, but if it did IMO would allow us to still become a genuine playoff threat (assuming we are able to make another move or 2 to balance the roster.)