Desperate Times

[CDM_Stats]

Simmons is a cancer because he didn't get along with the very successful and famously level-headed Joel Embiid? lol its cartoonish how people perceive this guy

He can't do 2 whole things: shoot, and stay healthy (back issues - long term concern). That's it. Great creator/passer, great defender, great rebounder. Fits perfectly with the team, realistic in terms of value. But yeah why would we want castoffs that have failed with increased expectations as the #1 pick? I guess I'd believe in it more if we had one specific example of it working really well with this exact team in the past few years. But only then would I think its worth looking into

Wiggins got a bad rap for not carrying the franchise on his shoulders in MN. But Simmons literally had such an emotional breakdown that he refused to even hold onto the ball at the end of playoff games for fear that he'd have to shoot free throws. Then he got traded to the Nets, and pretty much decided not to play for them at all, due to a combination of mental/emotional and physical issues. All while making $40M/year. It speaks volumes that Kelly Oubre was able to shine in this years playoffs for the Sixers. LOL is right.

Wiggins got a bad rap for not doing what they wanted from a #1 pick despite his limitations

Simmons got a bad rap for not doing what they wanted from a #1 pick despite his limitations

The difference is that Simmons always netted out as an elite defender/passer while Wiggins didn’t. So arguably this is a much better scenario, where a team would have to accept no shooting from their PG. Just like a team would have to accept no volume scoring from Wiggins

But oh no, he’s a FT liability that can’t play to end games? Good thing we wouldn’t need that from him and could play to all his strengths. I mean this isn’t hard.. Warriors need more handlers and better defense as 2 of their primary needs. This guy is elite at both and has suppressed trade value


Everyone loves buying low/selling high, or finding value others miss, until it’s time to nut up

(BTW, despite the impressive performance of 13 ppg on average efficiency with horrible defense, Simmons’ worst series in the playoffs clears Oubre’s best, by a lot)

[Onus]

If Simmons only cost cp3 + looney/gp2 you do it. I’d add a 2nd as well if needed.

[xdrta+]

If Simmons only cost cp3 + looney/gp2 you do it. I’d add a 2nd as well if needed.

Would the Nets really want to get out from Simmons' $40M only to swallow $30M with CP3 though.

[wco81]

Look at the changes the Mavs made. They traded DFS, Dinwiddie, unprotected 2029 FRP and two SRPs.

Their defense looked poor and they tanked the rest of the year, not trying to get into the playoffs.

They had the #10 pick for Lively, who's good enough to get regular minutes including in the playoffs as a rookie.

Then they traded for Washington and Gaffert and those guys are playing way above their heads now. Mavs are a threat to get to the WFC again or maybe the Finals, though Luka's injuries may doom them.

But they made little moves, like signing Derrick Jones and Exum for nothing, and Jones is also playing better than he ever has.

So a couple of good role players can make a big impact. Would be nice to have a top 10 FRP though ...

[CDM_Stats]

If Simmons only cost cp3 + looney/gp2 you do it. I’d add a 2nd as well if needed.

Would the Nets really want to get out from Simmons' $40M only to swallow $30M with CP3 though.

If they can save a little extra with a buyout, then they’d basically be getting Looney or GP2 for him. They’d be more available, at least

Plus they don’t even use Simmons like one is supposed to, so I doubt they’d be too attached.. but obviously there’s a point where it’s not worth it for them, on where it’s not worth it for us, and probably a very slim area where it works for both.. if we can find that sweet spot and there’s nothing else available.. eh, why not

[Nvnervous45]

If you can't shoot in the modern nba you're pretty much limited to center and I'm not sure he's built to hold up there. Especially with the floor spacing Kerr's offense requires. I mean even the modern 7 footers can nail it from deep. Im thinking specifically of embiid, Jokic, Towns, wemby, holmgren, banchero etc.

[wco81]

Plus people question if Simmons even wants to play.

After his big contract is done, he may quit. He apparently doesn't work hard, his head is elsewhere, are the reports. Like he's socializing rather than working on rehab or his game.

It's amazing, the know-it-alls **** on various players but they want Ben Simmons, who may not even want to play in the NBA after his deal is over?

[CDM_Stats]

If you can't shoot in the modern nba you're pretty much limited to center and I'm not sure he's built to hold up there. Especially with the floor spacing Kerr's offense requires. I mean even the modern 7 footers can nail it from deep. Im thinking specifically of embiid, Jokic, Towns, wemby, holmgren, banchero etc.

If you're playing the odds, yes. But exceptions exist, and those exceptions exist because those players are great in other aspects of the game. TJ McConnell (44 3PTA in 1291 minutes) and Kyle Anderson (48 3PTA in 1791 min) are the first 2 that jump to mind.. I think people are getting arguments confused. Is Simmons' lack of a 3pt shot a reason why he's not a franchise cornerstone, not worth an exorbitant salary, and not worth the trade value associated with a #1 pick? Absolutely. Does it mean he holds no value? Absolutely not. But like Wiggins, or Iguodala from well before.. these guys get underrated by fans because of a complaint against them at a certain expectation level.. and that expectation level would mean nothing to the Warriors. Did anyone here look at Wiggins through the lens of being a former #1 pick? Or was he trade scrap we acquired while getting a 1st?

If the Warriors can trade a 40 year old backup PG and a situational center or situational defender, and turn it into a 6'10 PG that's an elite defender at all 3 levels.. in what way is that bad? The only hiccup is the health - significant hiccup though it is - but thats not the complaint I'm seeing much

[watch1958]

If you can't shoot in the modern nba you're pretty much limited to center and I'm not sure he's built to hold up there. Especially with the floor spacing Kerr's offense requires. I mean even the modern 7 footers can nail it from deep. Im thinking specifically of embiid, Jokic, Towns, wemby, holmgren, banchero etc.

If you're playing the odds, yes. But exceptions exist, and those exceptions exist because those players are great in other aspects of the game. TJ McConnell (44 3PTA in 1291 minutes) and Kyle Anderson (48 3PTA in 1791 min) are the first 2 that jump to mind.. I think people are getting arguments confused. Is Simmons' lack of a 3pt shot a reason why he's not a franchise cornerstone, not worth an exorbitant salary, and not worth the trade value associated with a #1 pick? Absolutely. Does it mean he holds no value? Absolutely not. But like Wiggins, or Iguodala from well before.. these guys get underrated by fans because of a complaint against them at a certain expectation level.. and that expectation level would mean nothing to the Warriors. Did anyone here look at Wiggins through the lens of being a former #1 pick? Or was he trade scrap we acquired while getting a 1st?

If the Warriors can trade a 40 year old backup PG and a situational center or situational defender, and turn it into a 6'10 PG that's an elite defender at all 3 levels.. in what way is that bad? The only hiccup is the health - significant hiccup though it is - but thats not the complaint I'm seeing much

I think they need two really good additions in order to compete. If they made a deal like this for Ben, it leaves them with all their trade capital except CP3.

What type of guy should they look for in a second deal, if they got Ben?

[CDM_Stats]

If you can't shoot in the modern nba you're pretty much limited to center and I'm not sure he's built to hold up there. Especially with the floor spacing Kerr's offense requires. I mean even the modern 7 footers can nail it from deep. Im thinking specifically of embiid, Jokic, Towns, wemby, holmgren, banchero etc.

If you're playing the odds, yes. But exceptions exist, and those exceptions exist because those players are great in other aspects of the game. TJ McConnell (44 3PTA in 1291 minutes) and Kyle Anderson (48 3PTA in 1791 min) are the first 2 that jump to mind.. I think people are getting arguments confused. Is Simmons' lack of a 3pt shot a reason why he's not a franchise cornerstone, not worth an exorbitant salary, and not worth the trade value associated with a #1 pick? Absolutely. Does it mean he holds no value? Absolutely not. But like Wiggins, or Iguodala from well before.. these guys get underrated by fans because of a complaint against them at a certain expectation level.. and that expectation level would mean nothing to the Warriors. Did anyone here look at Wiggins through the lens of being a former #1 pick? Or was he trade scrap we acquired while getting a 1st?

If the Warriors can trade a 40 year old backup PG and a situational center or situational defender, and turn it into a 6'10 PG that's an elite defender at all 3 levels.. in what way is that bad? The only hiccup is the health - significant hiccup though it is - but thats not the complaint I'm seeing much

I think they need two really good additions in order to compete. If they made a deal like this for Ben, it leaves them with all their trade capital except CP3.

What type of guy should they look for in a second deal, if they got Ben?

Shooters. Not sure how, because that opens up a can of worms. But presumably if the trade costs them CP3/GP2, then you have Looney, Podz, Moody, Kuminga, TJD, maybe even Wiggins to try and add more credible volume shooting. Or maybe even a Klay S&T, if one is available. We'd be more motivated if we got Simmons

But the 2nd part of this, and one that I can't believe some folks are missing on, is that if Simmons does fit well, and since he presumably wont have a huge market when he fits FA.. well, there'd be absolutely no need to keep both Dray and Ben on Ben's 2nd contract. It paves the way to get younger and less punchy at point power forward position. If the team drops a ton of salary, Ben could be a S&T candidate as a high level role player. Might even be a trade asset at the deadline

I'm not advocating to get him so they can push for a title. Unless they are dealing Kuminga, they are clearly not serious about going all-in anyways. So I'm looking for rehabbed value and ways to take depressed assets and show the league how to use them, like with Wiggins. Put niche players in their niche

[superunknown]

this team presently constructed is going nowhere.
simmons, no simmons, they need to grow some balls, get rid of some of the dead weight in the roster and get creative, possibly nailing a couple of hat-trick and decent role players.
they can't, they'll hit a brick wall again.

[Twinkie defense]

Do we have enough outgoing salary to get Ben Simmons and Brandon Ingram without giving up much actual talent?

[Nvnervous45]

I still think his body is greg oden cooked. After two back surgeries and a sharp decline in play, I don't think he'd be worth the $42 million lacob would have to pay him next year. I mean at least wiggins was still in Allstar form his last year with the t-wolves and was averaging 22 pts a game. Simmons is down to 6.7 ppg and has been trending downward 3 years running.

[xdrta+]

Do we have enough outgoing salary to get Ben Simmons and Brandon Ingram without giving up much actual talent?

Depends what you mean by talent. As discussed above, CP3 + Looney or GPII would be enough for Simmons. Ingram would require sending out about $33M. Wiggins + the other one of those two, or Kuminga would be enough.

[ILOVEIT]

No way. Warriors will find a better suiter who would love to get that CP3 level money off their books.

[CDM_Stats]

I still think his body is greg oden cooked. After two back surgeries and a sharp decline in play, I don't think he'd be worth the $42 million lacob would have to pay him next year. I mean at least wiggins was still in Allstar form his last year with the t-wolves and was averaging 22 pts a game. Simmons is down to 6.7 ppg and has been trending downward 3 years running.

Ppg is not a good argument.. when PHI had him running the offense as pure point, he graded out positive both ways. Even when he was afraid to shoot. Nets have much lower usage, and that dropped him to negative. His defense remained elite

So there’s not been a sharp decline in anything but usage, and even if it were a sharp skills decline, he grades out per minute better than all but 3 Warriors last year: Curry, Dray, TJD

[Onus]

this team presently constructed is going nowhere.
simmons, no simmons, they need to grow some balls, get rid of some of the dead weight in the roster and get creative, possibly nailing a couple of hat-trick and decent role players.
they can't, they'll hit a brick wall again.

I'm curious to think who people see as dead weight

[vvoland]

I still think his body is greg oden cooked. After two back surgeries and a sharp decline in play, I don't think he'd be worth the $42 million lacob would have to pay him next year. I mean at least wiggins was still in Allstar form his last year with the t-wolves and was averaging 22 pts a game. Simmons is down to 6.7 ppg and has been trending downward 3 years running.

Ppg is not a good argument.. when PHI had him running the offense as pure point, he graded out positive both ways. Even when he was afraid to shoot. Nets have much lower usage, and that dropped him to negative. His defense remained elite

So there’s not been a sharp decline in anything but usage, and even if it were a sharp skills decline, he grades out per minute better than all but 3 Warriors last year: Curry, Dray, TJD

This is where I would probably say the numbers are lying more than the eyes are. And when you say "grades out per minute" do you mean last year, in his ~300 minutes?

The parallels to wiggins are not realistic. Aside from no 1 picks that lack the visible aggression on the basketball court, there are no similarities. Wiggins was an ironman, Simmons is made of cotton. Wiggins was a 20 ppg scorer who didn't put the effort in other areas. Simmons is someone who is has a phobia of scoring while giving the team pretty much everything else. Beyond the health, I have serious reservations about his desire to play basketball and how much he actually wants to win. If we're betting on an overpriced star that is at a value nadir, I'd rather gamble on lavine vs simmons.

[CDM_Stats]

I still think his body is greg oden cooked. After two back surgeries and a sharp decline in play, I don't think he'd be worth the $42 million lacob would have to pay him next year. I mean at least wiggins was still in Allstar form his last year with the t-wolves and was averaging 22 pts a game. Simmons is down to 6.7 ppg and has been trending downward 3 years running.

Ppg is not a good argument.. when PHI had him running the offense as pure point, he graded out positive both ways. Even when he was afraid to shoot. Nets have much lower usage, and that dropped him to negative. His defense remained elite

So there’s not been a sharp decline in anything but usage, and even if it were a sharp skills decline, he grades out per minute better than all but 3 Warriors last year: Curry, Dray, TJD

This is where I would probably say the numbers are lying more than the eyes are. And when you say "grades out per minute" do you mean last year, in his ~300 minutes?

The parallels to wiggins are not realistic. Aside from no 1 picks that lack the visible aggression on the basketball court, there are no similarities. Wiggins was an ironman, Simmons is made of cotton. Wiggins was a 20 ppg scorer who didn't put the effort in other areas. Simmons is someone who is has a phobia of scoring while giving the team pretty much everything else. Beyond the health, I have serious reservations about his desire to play basketball and how much he actually wants to win. If we're betting on an overpriced star that is at a value nadir, I'd rather gamble on lavine vs simmons.

So gamble on the guy you know isn't going to be helpful vs the guy who, despite his motivation issues, is still an impact defender? The one who's defensive impact has never actually wavered? The gamble, in its entirety, is on health. Because whether he does it with enough enthusiasm or not, the fact remains that he's an excellent role player when placed in a certain role, and its a role that the Warriors have a need for. Additionally, Lavine has a 3 year contract at near max dollars. Ben Simmons is expiring. So its less risk and higher upside, as well as providing a legitimate backup for one of the rarest archetypes in Draymond Green. So if the team did move on from him while keeping Curry, there wouldnt even need to be a systemic change. Or if they wanted to try and stagger Dray's minutes going forward

The parallels to how Wiggins was perceived are nearly identical, by the way. Wiggins was lazy, selfish, soft, the worst rotation player in the league, a loser, etc etc. Then when he had less responsibility and got away from his bully (Butler), turns out he was actually a very good role player despite being drafted #1. Simmons is lazy, selfish, soft, a loser, a cancer, etc etc. Drafted #1 and then traded for Harden. Get him away from his a-holes (Butler again and Embiid), give him less responsibility.. his peripherals blow Wiggins' out of the water... this is exactly how you turn a penny into a dollar. It shouldnt be plan A mind you, but the arguments that don't relate to health are baffling me at this point

[Twinkie defense]

Wiggins was an ironman

Wiggins has been totally unreliable the last two seasons due to family issues (and getting back to game shape after his family issues). I don't blame him for it, family is more important than basketball. But Wiggins is hardly an iron man.