Game 4: Knicks @ Cavs 10/31/2023

[jasonxxx102]

I mean who would execute that scheme? CPJ in his second NBA game? Mitchell is a great SG, but he's a SG. Multiple players missing multiple open 3s is hard to offset.

The most impressive quarter by any Cavs player in the playoffs, to me anyway, was the third quarter in the 4th game when Garland figured out exactly how far M. Robinson was willing to come out of drop coverage and just yo-yo'd him. It scared Thibs enough to bring McBride off the bench and play 3 on 5 offensively. That's where JBB needs a counter ready, but we weren't anywhere near there tonight.

I'm saying it doesn't matter if you had the dream team, the Monstars, or me and the golden girls. Schematically it wasn't personnel that was lacking, the scheme itself is still flawed.

The guys are still in poor rebounding position due to heavy shot contests, Mitchell was still getting trapped at half court without any idea where to place the ball, and the Knicks were still off and running in space. If that is the game plan, it sucks and it got us bounced in 5 games.

Maybe he's playing coy and trying to save something for tonight or even the playoffs but I have never viewed JB as a very tactful guy. Thibs will easily be able to win 4 of 7 times again, with JB's lack of adjustments after 6 months.

Scheme can be personnel dependent. Things are going to look different with Mitchell as the primary ball handler and Strus as the secondary ball handler, or CPJ as the primary ball handler for the second unit. Having a single 7 foot rim protector is very different than having two on the floor.

It's kind of the chicken and the egg thing, while you should scheme to your personnel, you should also have a team identity to which players fit in.

Regardless this team isn't winning many games with Mitchell as the primary ball handler. He's just not a guy who can run your offense effectively.

[Iwasawitness]

I'm saying it doesn't matter if you had the dream team, the Monstars, or me and the golden girls. Schematically it wasn't personnel that was lacking, the scheme itself is still flawed.

The guys are still in poor rebounding position due to heavy shot contests, Mitchell was still getting trapped at half court without any idea where to place the ball, and the Knicks were still off and running in space. If that is the game plan, it sucks and it got us bounced in 5 games.

Maybe he's playing coy and trying to save something for tonight or even the playoffs but I have never viewed JB as a very tactful guy. Thibs will easily be able to win 4 of 7 times again, with JB's lack of adjustments after 6 months.

Scheme can be personnel dependent. Things are going to look different with Mitchell as the primary ball handler and Strus as the secondary ball handler, or CPJ as the primary ball handler for the second unit. Having a single 7 foot rim protector is very different than having two on the floor.

It's kind of the chicken and the egg thing, while you should scheme to your personnel, you should also have a team identity to which players fit in.

Regardless this team isn't winning many games with Mitchell as the primary ball handler. He's just not a guy who can run your offense effectively.

Oddly enough, last seasons eight game winning streak was mostly Mitchell being the starting PG. But we are just so beat up right now with injuries that it doesn’t even matter.

Funny thing is though, this is actually going to be our last offseason with our own first round draft pick until the end of the 2020s. So I’d almost rather our season get ruined by injuries, get a high draft pick and trade away Mitchell. But I know that’s not going to happen. We will more than likely be a high seeded team in the East and that pick will be outside the lottery.

[mcfly1204]

I don't think Mitchell running the offense for stretches\games is the problem, it's that we don't have a competent backup PG when Garland, LeVert, and Rubio are out. I liked what I saw from Porter last night, but he has a ways to go.

[JujitsuFlip]

Scheme can be personnel dependent. Things are going to look different with Mitchell as the primary ball handler and Strus as the secondary ball handler, or CPJ as the primary ball handler for the second unit. Having a single 7 foot rim protector is very different than having two on the floor.

It's kind of the chicken and the egg thing, while you should scheme to your personnel, you should also have a team identity to which players fit in.

Regardless this team isn't winning many games with Mitchell as the primary ball handler. He's just not a guy who can run your offense effectively.

Oddly enough, last seasons eight game winning streak was mostly Mitchell being the starting PG. But we are just so beat up right now with injuries that it doesn’t even matter.

Funny thing is though, this is actually going to be our last offseason with our own first round draft pick until the end of the 2020s. So I’d almost rather our season get ruined by injuries, get a high draft pick and trade away Mitchell. But I know that’s not going to happen. We will more than likely be a high seeded team in the East and that pick will be outside the lottery.

Long as the pick is good enough to nab LBJ Jr, i don't really care lol need the old man back in the wine & gold, for a 3rd time; I'd say that is our best shot.

[JujitsuFlip]

I mean who would execute that scheme? CPJ in his second NBA game? Mitchell is a great SG, but he's a SG. Multiple players missing multiple open 3s is hard to offset.

The most impressive quarter by any Cavs player in the playoffs, to me anyway, was the third quarter in the 4th game when Garland figured out exactly how far M. Robinson was willing to come out of drop coverage and just yo-yo'd him. It scared Thibs enough to bring McBride off the bench and play 3 on 5 offensively. That's where JBB needs a counter ready, but we weren't anywhere near there tonight.

I'm saying it doesn't matter if you had the dream team, the Monstars, or me and the golden girls. Schematically it wasn't personnel that was lacking, the scheme itself is still flawed.

The guys are still in poor rebounding position due to heavy shot contests, Mitchell was still getting trapped at half court without any idea where to place the ball, and the Knicks were still off and running in space. If that is the game plan, it sucks and it got us bounced in 5 games.

Maybe he's playing coy and trying to save something for tonight or even the playoffs but I have never viewed JB as a very tactful guy. Thibs will easily be able to win 4 of 7 times again, with JB's lack of adjustments after 6 months.

Scheme can be personnel dependent. Things are going to look different with Mitchell as the primary ball handler and Strus as the secondary ball handler, or CPJ as the primary ball handler for the second unit. Having a single 7 foot rim protector is very different than having two on the floor.

I'm sure it can be but it was the identical game plan we saw against the Knicks in April, so, leads me to believe personnel is irrelevant, in this instance.

[jasonxxx102]

It's kind of the chicken and the egg thing, while you should scheme to your personnel, you should also have a team identity to which players fit in.

Regardless this team isn't winning many games with Mitchell as the primary ball handler. He's just not a guy who can run your offense effectively.

Oddly enough, last seasons eight game winning streak was mostly Mitchell being the starting PG. But we are just so beat up right now with injuries that it doesn’t even matter.

Funny thing is though, this is actually going to be our last offseason with our own first round draft pick until the end of the 2020s. So I’d almost rather our season get ruined by injuries, get a high draft pick and trade away Mitchell. But I know that’s not going to happen. We will more than likely be a high seeded team in the East and that pick will be outside the lottery.

Long as the pick is good enough to nab LBJ Jr, i don't really care lol need the old man back in the wine & gold, for a 3rd time; I'd say that is our best shot.

Please no, I would take literally any other option

[JonFromVA]

Good points guys on the minor bright spots, but the biggest thing to watch is that Bickerstaff actually used his bench. It wasn't perfect (and not just because we stunk) but rather because he still played Max Strus for 14.5 minutes straight.

Whether this is just a one time thing because he'd already written off this game in his mind, or a true change in how our lineups are managed will be tbd. It's funny as short-handed as we were that some of our reserves still only saw the floor in garbage time.

Emoni, Craig, and Sam all look ready to play at the NBA level to me. If we want them to be able to help the team, they will need consistent opportunities moving forward and not just when we're on a back to back and decimated by injuries.

2006 keeps coming to mind when we drafted Shannon Brown with our #1 and Daniel Gibson with our #2 that season. Brown got fairly consistent play time through the first 19 games, meanwhile Gibson didn't see the floor until game 8 or even take a shot until game 10. By game 12, Boobie got to play 21 minutes in a 10 man rotation where older players like Eric Snow, Damon Jones, David Wesley, or Sasha Pavlovic may have all been handed those minutes.

[JujitsuFlip]

Oddly enough, last seasons eight game winning streak was mostly Mitchell being the starting PG. But we are just so beat up right now with injuries that it doesn’t even matter.

Funny thing is though, this is actually going to be our last offseason with our own first round draft pick until the end of the 2020s. So I’d almost rather our season get ruined by injuries, get a high draft pick and trade away Mitchell. But I know that’s not going to happen. We will more than likely be a high seeded team in the East and that pick will be outside the lottery.

Long as the pick is good enough to nab LBJ Jr, i don't really care lol need the old man back in the wine & gold, for a 3rd time; I'd say that is our best shot.

Please no, I would take literally any other option

After the lull, I'm ready for stint #3 because it will obviously come with playoff success, even with a 40 year old LeBron.

[jasonxxx102]

Long as the pick is good enough to nab LBJ Jr, i don't really care lol need the old man back in the wine & gold, for a 3rd time; I'd say that is our best shot.

Please no, I would take literally any other option

After the lull, I'm ready for stint #3 because it will obviously come with playoff success, even with a 40 year old LeBron.

I'm torn, on one hand I think you might be right about playoff success but on the other hand it's just so much drama

[JonFromVA]

I'm saying it doesn't matter if you had the dream team, the Monstars, or me and the golden girls. Schematically it wasn't personnel that was lacking, the scheme itself is still flawed.

The guys are still in poor rebounding position due to heavy shot contests, Mitchell was still getting trapped at half court without any idea where to place the ball, and the Knicks were still off and running in space. If that is the game plan, it sucks and it got us bounced in 5 games.

Maybe he's playing coy and trying to save something for tonight or even the playoffs but I have never viewed JB as a very tactful guy. Thibs will easily be able to win 4 of 7 times again, with JB's lack of adjustments after 6 months.

Scheme can be personnel dependent. Things are going to look different with Mitchell as the primary ball handler and Strus as the secondary ball handler, or CPJ as the primary ball handler for the second unit. Having a single 7 foot rim protector is very different than having two on the floor.

I'm sure it can be but it was the identical game plan we saw against the Knicks in April, so, leads me to believe personnel is irrelevant, in this instance.

The final numbers say we were only out rebounded by 2 and we actually grabbed 2 more offensive rebounds. Mobley, Bates, Okoro, and CPJ all contributed on the boards. Not much from Wade or even TT.

As for how Mitchell attacked the Knicks, I saw a couple of differences. Initially he was forcing switches to pull Robinson away from the rim and then beating him off while dodging around the remaining Knicks defense like they were traffic cones in a layup drill.

Thibs adjusted to that and started sending both defenders after Mitchell on the P&R. This is normally where we expect Mitchell to use Garland or Garland to use Mitchell to beat this, but obviously not an option. But Mitchell had another trick up his sleeve, he simply went the other way on the screen and embarrassed the Knicks a couple more times.

Thibs cleaned that up too, even just doubled Mitchell early sometimes; and THAT'S where we ran out of counter-adjustments because we're dumb, young, and not ready for this. If Mitchell himself knew what he was doing, he could have made the next adjustment, maybe even on the fly via play call or simply pointing.

The trick is getting Garland and Mitchell mentally to that point where they know what to do in all these situations without having to wait another 5 years for that experience to slowly accumulate. It's critical that our coaching staff be able to help get them there.

It's tough seeing our team get out-coached on adjustments by a traditional rigid coach like Thibs, but even head coaches are going to pick things up over the years that they can use to out think a less experienced opponent.

CPJ is worth developing as an option in these circumstances because of his ability to attack the rim and his PG skills to read the D and hold on to his dribble. Isaac and Strus are also options if what needs to be done is fairly straight forward. Evan needs to become an option, but still has a long ways to go.

Alternatively, we can play for the jumper in these situations by either having a shooter set the screen for Mitchell, have Mitchell set the screen for the shooter, have a big set the screen, get the ball from Mitchell, and the DHO and screen for the shooter, etc, etc. The guys on the floor just have to be on the same page for this.

[JonFromVA]

Oddly enough, last seasons eight game winning streak was mostly Mitchell being the starting PG. But we are just so beat up right now with injuries that it doesn’t even matter.

Funny thing is though, this is actually going to be our last offseason with our own first round draft pick until the end of the 2020s. So I’d almost rather our season get ruined by injuries, get a high draft pick and trade away Mitchell. But I know that’s not going to happen. We will more than likely be a high seeded team in the East and that pick will be outside the lottery.

Long as the pick is good enough to nab LBJ Jr, i don't really care lol need the old man back in the wine & gold, for a 3rd time; I'd say that is our best shot.

Please no, I would take literally any other option

Seems like this move was scripted from the get go. How we made sure to have a pick in the next draft, how we kept the SF spot open throughout a rebuild, how we traded Lauri when he started looking like he could be a SF, how Mitchell's contract extension comes up, how James keeps declaring he will play for whoever drafts his son.

It's all converging on another return.

The good news is James can still play and his BBIQ would fix a lot of things wrong with this team.

The bad news, well, the sacrifices we've made in the past to accommodate him are well known.

[mcfly1204]

Long as the pick is good enough to nab LBJ Jr, i don't really care lol need the old man back in the wine & gold, for a 3rd time; I'd say that is our best shot.

Please no, I would take literally any other option

Seems like this move was scripted from the get go. How we made sure to have a pick in the next draft, how we kept the SF spot open throughout a rebuild, how we traded Lauri when he started looking like he could be a SF, how Mitchell's contract extension comes up, how James keeps declaring he will play for whoever drafts his son.

It's all converging on another return.

The good news is James can still play and his BBIQ would fix a lot of things wrong with this team.

The bad news, well, the sacrifices we've made in the past to accommodate him are well known.

Quite the conspiracy theory there.

[JonFromVA]

I mean who would execute that scheme? CPJ in his second NBA game? Mitchell is a great SG, but he's a SG. Multiple players missing multiple open 3s is hard to offset.

The most impressive quarter by any Cavs player in the playoffs, to me anyway, was the third quarter in the 4th game when Garland figured out exactly how far M. Robinson was willing to come out of drop coverage and just yo-yo'd him. It scared Thibs enough to bring McBride off the bench and play 3 on 5 offensively. That's where JBB needs a counter ready, but we weren't anywhere near there tonight.

I'm saying it doesn't matter if you had the dream team, the Monstars, or me and the golden girls. Schematically it wasn't personnel that was lacking, the scheme itself is still flawed.

The guys are still in poor rebounding position due to heavy shot contests, Mitchell was still getting trapped at half court without any idea where to place the ball, and the Knicks were still off and running in space. If that is the game plan, it sucks and it got us bounced in 5 games.

Maybe he's playing coy and trying to save something for tonight or even the playoffs but I have never viewed JB as a very tactful guy. Thibs will easily be able to win 4 of 7 times again, with JB's lack of adjustments after 6 months.

Scheme can be personnel dependent. Things are going to look different with Mitchell as the primary ball handler and Strus as the secondary ball handler, or CPJ as the primary ball handler for the second unit. Having a single 7 foot rim protector is very different than having two on the floor.

Or to put it another way, the scheme needs to be extended to more than the 7 guys JBB wants to play before it even has a chance when we're missing some of those 7 guys.

It starts with actually playing those guys and letting them make their mistakes - which we saw, but will it continue?

[Iwasawitness]

Just so everyone is aware, Allen and Garland are out again tonight. Levert is questionable. So unless Mitchell has himself a 50+ point performance, Cleveland is really going to start this season 1-4.

[Iwasawitness]

Long as the pick is good enough to nab LBJ Jr, i don't really care lol need the old man back in the wine & gold, for a 3rd time; I'd say that is our best shot.

Please no, I would take literally any other option

After the lull, I'm ready for stint #3 because it will obviously come with playoff success, even with a 40 year old LeBron.

I cannot stress this enough: I would rather keep Mitchell than ever take back LeBron. And I say this as someone who came out of the closet as a Bronsexual: keep him as far away from the team as possible.

[JujitsuFlip]

Just so everyone is aware, Allen and Garland are out again tonight. Levert is questionable. So unless Mitchell has himself a 50+ point performance, Cleveland is really going to start this season 1-4.

I don't think Mitchell should even attempt that, tbh.

[Iwasawitness]

Just so everyone is aware, Allen and Garland are out again tonight. Levert is questionable. So unless Mitchell has himself a 50+ point performance, Cleveland is really going to start this season 1-4.

I don't think Mitchell should even attempt that, tbh.

I think Mitchell should, and I’m surprised you don’t want him to. His trade stock needs to be as high as possible. He’s already shown improved effort defensively, but now is really the time to show that he actually can carry a franchise. I want Mobley to be more involved but let’s be honest, he’s not doing much against Robinson. The mismatch in weight and strength is just insane. Mitchell needs to show just how great of a player he can truly be.

[jasonxxx102]

Just so everyone is aware, Allen and Garland are out again tonight. Levert is questionable. So unless Mitchell has himself a 50+ point performance, Cleveland is really going to start this season 1-4.

I don't think Mitchell should even attempt that, tbh.

I think Mitchell should, and I’m surprised you don’t want him to. His trade stock needs to be as high as possible. He’s already shown improved effort defensively, but now is really the time to show that he actually can carry a franchise. I want Mobley to be more involved but let’s be honest, he’s not doing much against Robinson. The mismatch in weight and strength is just insane. Mitchell needs to show just how great of a player he can truly be.

He can't improve his trade stock. Every team in the league knows exactly what he is already, a random 50pt game certainly isn't going to change that

[JujitsuFlip]

Please no, I would take literally any other option

After the lull, I'm ready for stint #3 because it will obviously come with playoff success, even with a 40 year old LeBron.

I cannot stress this enough: I would rather keep Mitchell than ever take back LeBron. And I say this as someone who came out of the closet as a Bronsexual: keep him as far away from the team as possible.

Mitchell doesn't wanna be here, i think we all would prefer he extends and is a Cav through the entirety of us owing picks to the Jazz, just doesn't seem to be in the cards.

I'm fine with LeBron coming back, it will be his shortest stint for sure.

[JujitsuFlip]

I don't think Mitchell should even attempt that, tbh.

I think Mitchell should, and I’m surprised you don’t want him to. His trade stock needs to be as high as possible. He’s already shown improved effort defensively, but now is really the time to show that he actually can carry a franchise. I want Mobley to be more involved but let’s be honest, he’s not doing much against Robinson. The mismatch in weight and strength is just insane. Mitchell needs to show just how great of a player he can truly be.

He can't improve his trade stock. Every team in the league knows exactly what he is already, a random 50pt game certainly isn't going to change that

Lmao 100% agree.

The guy already put up 71 points last season, 50 on November 1st means nothing.