Cavs trade for Mitchell.

[JonFromVA]

Garland finishes an alley-oop dunk 7 seconds in to this video?

Watch on YouTube

I hope he hasn't used up his dunk allotment for the season already ...

[JujitsuFlip]

Garland finishes an alley-oop dunk 7 seconds in to this video?

Watch on YouTube

I hope he hasn't used up his dunk allotment for the season already ...

Those 2 were cooking! I wish Mitchell was 6'8" and/or played defense and the Cavs would be title contenders instead of playoff contenders.

[JonFromVA]

Garland finishes an alley-oop dunk 7 seconds in to this video?

Watch on YouTube

I hope he hasn't used up his dunk allotment for the season already ...

Those 2 were cooking! I wish Mitchell was 6'8" and/or played defense and the Cavs would be title contenders instead of playoff contenders.

Even if we had our free choice of a player rather than the circumstances that aligned themselves just such that we could get Mitchell, fact is it's hard to find 26 year old player that does the things Mitchell does with better length/defense that would fit as well with Garland.

nbcsports ranked the top 20 players in the league (Mitchell was 17th), and here are the names I'd consider as potentially a better fit for our core and timeline from the players ranked ahead of him:

#6) Jayson Tatum - would play him at SF and would then need to look for some additional shooting/defense at SG;
#7) Luke Doncic - no defense, but he worked well with Brunson, so be too good to pass up on;

From just the top SG's ... Jaylen Brown didn't make that list and gives us the length/defense, but not the offense. Devin Booker, Zach LaVine, and Tyler Herro gives us a lot of the offense but don't play defense and all have a shorter wingspan. Maybe you'd take a bet on the development of Anthony Edwards, Tyrese Maxey? Dejounte Murray was available to us and we didn't throw everything at the Spurs to get him. They still don't match Mitchell's wingspan. And then maybe there's some recent draftees who'd look nice, but wouldn't advance our timeline ahead like Mitchell does.

The trick is going to be to get a lot more out of Mitchell's sturdy frame and 6'10" wingspan on defense and try to supercharge what he and Garland can bring us on offense.

I mean this is what nbadraft.net said about Mitchell's defense in his draft profile:

Probably the most appealing part of Mitchell’s game lies on the defensive end … By the end of his second year at Louisville, he established himself as a multi-positional stopper who a coach can put on point guards, shooting guards and even some small forwards … Mitchell has outstanding physical tools to be a lockdown defender, with his elite length, strong frame and quick feet … Mitchell is also a highly competitive guy who is willing to pressure full court, dive to the floor for loose balls, and consistently make things difficult for opposing players … Mitchell has terrific instincts off the ball, as shown by his 2.6 steals per-40) … Despite being short for the average two-guard, his 6’10” wingspan is difficult for opposing guards to shoot over, and he does an exemplary job of using his quickness and strength to stay in front of his man …

By comparison, all they had to say about Agbaji was this:

Has experience defending the other team’s best wing and is effective switching all over the perimeter, with promising on-ball defensive skills …

Maybe we just need to unlock what we've got ... Mitchell has been carrying the Jazz offense since he entered the league.

[KuruptedCav]

Garland finishes an alley-oop dunk 7 seconds in to this video?

Watch on YouTube

I hope he hasn't used up his dunk allotment for the season already ...

Those 2 were cooking! I wish Mitchell was 6'8" and/or played defense and the Cavs would be title contenders instead of playoff contenders.

If Mitchell were 6’8” ye wouldn’t have been available to the Cavaliers without sending out part of the core.


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[JujitsuFlip]

Garland finishes an alley-oop dunk 7 seconds in to this video?

Watch on YouTube

I hope he hasn't used up his dunk allotment for the season already ...

Those 2 were cooking! I wish Mitchell was 6'8" and/or played defense and the Cavs would be title contenders instead of playoff contenders.

If Mitchell were 6’8” ye wouldn’t have been available to the Cavaliers without sending out part of the core.


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You're probably right, they still gave up a lot for what Mitchell is.

[JonFromVA]

Those 2 were cooking! I wish Mitchell was 6'8" and/or played defense and the Cavs would be title contenders instead of playoff contenders.

If Mitchell were 6’8” ye wouldn’t have been available to the Cavaliers without sending out part of the core.

You're probably right, they still gave up a lot for what Mitchell is.

I think we're all in agreement that the price was steep, but unless we find a way to wreck it - Mitchell will still has trade value.

[JujitsuFlip]

If Mitchell were 6’8” ye wouldn’t have been available to the Cavaliers without sending out part of the core.

You're probably right, they still gave up a lot for what Mitchell is.

I think we're all in agreement that the price was steep, but unless we find a way to wreck it - Mitchell will still has trade value.

He probably will but unless the Cavs are just flat missing the playoffs or Mitchell just fueds with one of the other core 4, I'd say he's probably here for 3 years minimum.

I also do not think the value can be recouped, especially the longer he's held onto.

[JonFromVA]

You're probably right, they still gave up a lot for what Mitchell is.

I think we're all in agreement that the price was steep, but unless we find a way to wreck it - Mitchell will still has trade value.

He probably will but unless the Cavs are just flat missing the playoffs or Mitchell just fueds with one of the other core 4, I'd say he's probably here for 3 years minimum.

I also do not think the value can be recouped, especially the longer he's held onto.

Oh, there are scenarios where we might trade him for another star who wants out and get value that way or just swap him for some high end role players if that's what we really need.

And there are a few teams which could had made huge pick packages for him, but simply weren't interested or were more interested in tanking. At some point they need to trade picks or they'll start to bleed them.

And then there's the scenario where he walks to the Knicks as a free agent in 2 years, but I wish them luck building a team he'd rather join with enough cap space to sign him.

[KuruptedCav]

You're probably right, they still gave up a lot for what Mitchell is.

I think we're all in agreement that the price was steep, but unless we find a way to wreck it - Mitchell will still has trade value.

He probably will but unless the Cavs are just flat missing the playoffs or Mitchell just fueds with one of the other core 4, I'd say he's probably here for 3 years minimum.

I also do not think the value can be recouped, especially the longer he's held onto.

I’m not passing on my BMW to drive a Ford just because the price is less.

In the NBA, asset consolidation is key. The Cavs have premium assets (Allen, Mobley, Garland, Mitchell) that they can send out in a trade for a star that fits better. That opens up possibilities to deal with competitive teams that weren’t present before.

If you have a premium asset to return, the deals look more like Wiggins for Love, Simmons for Harden, Irving for Brk #1. If you don’t:

Anthony Davis for Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, 2019 #4 + 2x more FRPs

Paul George for Gallinari, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, + 5x FRPs

Harden for Jarrett Allen, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince and 3FRPs + 4 pick swaps.

The consolidation trade is always the most expensive.


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[JujitsuFlip]

I think we're all in agreement that the price was steep, but unless we find a way to wreck it - Mitchell will still has trade value.

He probably will but unless the Cavs are just flat missing the playoffs or Mitchell just fueds with one of the other core 4, I'd say he's probably here for 3 years minimum.

I also do not think the value can be recouped, especially the longer he's held onto.

I’m not passing on my BMW to drive a Ford just because the price is less.

In the NBA, asset consolidation is key. The Cavs have premium assets (Allen, Mobley, Garland, Mitchell) that they can send out in a trade for a star that fits better. That opens up possibilities to deal with competitive teams that weren’t present before.

If you have a premium asset to return, the deals look more like Wiggins for Love, Simmons for Harden, Irving for Brk #1. If you don’t:

Anthony Davis for Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, 2019 #4 + 2x more FRPs

Paul George for Gallinari, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, + 5x FRPs

Harden for Jarrett Allen, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince and 3FRPs + 4 pick swaps.

The consolidation trade is always the most expensive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The bold is not a good comparison lol

The question isn't should asset consolidation happen or not... The question is first off the timing and second of all the piece that was consolidated for.

I'd much rather have PG13, Kawhi, KD, AD, Harden, Ben, or 2017 Irving than Mitchell... Koby gave up so much for an unproven guy who doesn't fit. Cavs coulda had a lesser version of Mitchell in Sexton for ~17.5 million AAV and still had all of their 1st round draft picks to use in trades to upgrade the roster.

RoCo and Powell were acquired for a future 2nd rounder for crying out loud. Those 2 fit perfectly with Allen, Mobley, and Garland plus are much cheaper salary wise and assets used to obtain wise.

[JonFromVA]

He probably will but unless the Cavs are just flat missing the playoffs or Mitchell just fueds with one of the other core 4, I'd say he's probably here for 3 years minimum.

I also do not think the value can be recouped, especially the longer he's held onto.

I’m not passing on my BMW to drive a Ford just because the price is less.

In the NBA, asset consolidation is key. The Cavs have premium assets (Allen, Mobley, Garland, Mitchell) that they can send out in a trade for a star that fits better. That opens up possibilities to deal with competitive teams that weren’t present before.

If you have a premium asset to return, the deals look more like Wiggins for Love, Simmons for Harden, Irving for Brk #1. If you don’t:

Anthony Davis for Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, 2019 #4 + 2x more FRPs

Paul George for Gallinari, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, + 5x FRPs

Harden for Jarrett Allen, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince and 3FRPs + 4 pick swaps.

The consolidation trade is always the most expensive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The bold is not a good comparison lol

The question isn't should asset consolidation happen or not... The question is first off the timing and second of all the piece that was consolidated for.

I'd much rather have PG13, Kawhi, KD, AD, Harden, Ben, or 2017 Irving than Mitchell... Koby gave up so much for an unproven guy who doesn't fit. Cavs coulda had a lesser version of Mitchell in Sexton for ~17.5 million AAV and still had all of their 1st round draft picks to use in trades to upgrade the roster.

RoCo and Powell were acquired for a future 2nd rounder for crying out loud. Those 2 fit perfectly with Allen, Mobley, and Garland plus are much cheaper salary wise and assets used to obtain wise.

Well, for one thing you left out that the Clippers included Keon Johnson (the 21st pick in the 2021 draft) in the trade and wanted cap relief. It's quite possible we did talk to them but couldn't offer a better deal and/or didn't want to tie up our cap space.

As for the piece we consolidated for, Mitchell has a career playoff average of 28/4.9/4.7 for $30.3M and has never missed the playoffs in his career. RoCo averages 9.7/5.7/1.2 for $12.3M and Powell averages 17/2.2/2.0 for $16.7M.

So when it counts the most Mitchell produces as much offense as those two older players for nearly the same price?

That's a pretty big deal and worth a premium *if* we can deal with the defensive difference.

But we can't re-litigate the past or even control who's going to hit the market. If a "PG13", "KD', or "AD" level player was to hit the open market are we better having a premium asset like Mitchell or a bunch of decent players and risky future picks?

There's a fair case we're better with Mitchell, so, it's wrong to say we've wasted the assets we gave up for him. We've just transformed them. For better or worse is tbd, but at least we have the player under team control for 3 seasons and when he can consider jumping ship, he will be 29 years old (Powell's current age) as Evan is just starting his non-rookie contract.

Mitchell throughout the bulk of his prime years would be pretty sweet. He will likely start to drop-off after 30, but stars are often still worth a max deal even with lesser production - at least the ones that can shoot and still create offense. CJ McCollum seems like a floor for Mitchell and the Pelicans seemed happy to trade for him and pay him $69M for 2 additional years even after it got to the point Portland decided they had to break up their team.

[ijspeelman]

He probably will but unless the Cavs are just flat missing the playoffs or Mitchell just fueds with one of the other core 4, I'd say he's probably here for 3 years minimum.

I also do not think the value can be recouped, especially the longer he's held onto.

I’m not passing on my BMW to drive a Ford just because the price is less.

In the NBA, asset consolidation is key. The Cavs have premium assets (Allen, Mobley, Garland, Mitchell) that they can send out in a trade for a star that fits better. That opens up possibilities to deal with competitive teams that weren’t present before.

If you have a premium asset to return, the deals look more like Wiggins for Love, Simmons for Harden, Irving for Brk #1. If you don’t:

Anthony Davis for Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, 2019 #4 + 2x more FRPs

Paul George for Gallinari, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, + 5x FRPs

Harden for Jarrett Allen, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince and 3FRPs + 4 pick swaps.

The consolidation trade is always the most expensive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The bold is not a good comparison lol

The question isn't should asset consolidation happen or not... The question is first off the timing and second of all the piece that was consolidated for.

I'd much rather have PG13, Kawhi, KD, AD, Harden, Ben, or 2017 Irving than Mitchell... Koby gave up so much for an unproven guy who doesn't fit. Cavs coulda had a lesser version of Mitchell in Sexton for ~17.5 million AAV and still had all of their 1st round draft picks to use in trades to upgrade the roster.

RoCo and Powell were acquired for a future 2nd rounder for crying out loud. Those 2 fit perfectly with Allen, Mobley, and Garland plus are much cheaper salary wise and assets used to obtain wise.

The term "unproven" doesn't fit. He has a history of elevating his play in the playoffs even considering his abysmal showing last time around.

The phrase "doesn't fit" is unproven. We have seen exactly zero minutes of Donovan Mitchell on the Cavaliers so we have no clue if he fits or doesn't fit. We can make generalizations, but he hasn't shown on the Jazz he doesn't fit next to another guard (see Conley) and Donovan Mitchell is not the same player as Sexton (or similar tier according to your assessment).

[JujitsuFlip]

I’m not passing on my BMW to drive a Ford just because the price is less.

In the NBA, asset consolidation is key. The Cavs have premium assets (Allen, Mobley, Garland, Mitchell) that they can send out in a trade for a star that fits better. That opens up possibilities to deal with competitive teams that weren’t present before.

If you have a premium asset to return, the deals look more like Wiggins for Love, Simmons for Harden, Irving for Brk #1. If you don’t:

Anthony Davis for Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, 2019 #4 + 2x more FRPs

Paul George for Gallinari, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, + 5x FRPs

Harden for Jarrett Allen, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince and 3FRPs + 4 pick swaps.

The consolidation trade is always the most expensive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The bold is not a good comparison lol

The question isn't should asset consolidation happen or not... The question is first off the timing and second of all the piece that was consolidated for.

I'd much rather have PG13, Kawhi, KD, AD, Harden, Ben, or 2017 Irving than Mitchell... Koby gave up so much for an unproven guy who doesn't fit. Cavs coulda had a lesser version of Mitchell in Sexton for ~17.5 million AAV and still had all of their 1st round draft picks to use in trades to upgrade the roster.

RoCo and Powell were acquired for a future 2nd rounder for crying out loud. Those 2 fit perfectly with Allen, Mobley, and Garland plus are much cheaper salary wise and assets used to obtain wise.

The term "unproven" doesn't fit. He has a history of elevating his play in the playoffs even considering his abysmal showing last time around.

The phrase "doesn't fit" is unproven. We have seen exactly zero minutes of Donovan Mitchell on the Cavaliers so we have no clue if he fits or doesn't fit. We can make generalizations, but he hasn't shown on the Jazz he doesn't fit next to another guard (see Conley) and Donovan Mitchell is not the same player as Sexton (or similar tier according to your assessment).

What has that accomplished? He's never won on any level or any stage. Were the Cavs just looking for a guy with playoff expierence? They have that all over their roster... Love (63 playoff games and a championship), Lopez (36 playoff games), Neto (27 playoff games), Cedi (14 playoff games, went to the Finals), Rubio (11 playoff games), Allen (9 playoff games), and LeVert (9 playoff games). Mitchell has never made it passed the 2nd round, coulda paid a lot less for a guy with playoff expierence.

Conley and Garland play completely different styles of basketball.

[ijspeelman]

The bold is not a good comparison lol

The question isn't should asset consolidation happen or not... The question is first off the timing and second of all the piece that was consolidated for.

I'd much rather have PG13, Kawhi, KD, AD, Harden, Ben, or 2017 Irving than Mitchell... Koby gave up so much for an unproven guy who doesn't fit. Cavs coulda had a lesser version of Mitchell in Sexton for ~17.5 million AAV and still had all of their 1st round draft picks to use in trades to upgrade the roster.

RoCo and Powell were acquired for a future 2nd rounder for crying out loud. Those 2 fit perfectly with Allen, Mobley, and Garland plus are much cheaper salary wise and assets used to obtain wise.

The term "unproven" doesn't fit. He has a history of elevating his play in the playoffs even considering his abysmal showing last time around.

The phrase "doesn't fit" is unproven. We have seen exactly zero minutes of Donovan Mitchell on the Cavaliers so we have no clue if he fits or doesn't fit. We can make generalizations, but he hasn't shown on the Jazz he doesn't fit next to another guard (see Conley) and Donovan Mitchell is not the same player as Sexton (or similar tier according to your assessment).

What has that accomplished? He's never won on any level or any stage. Were the Cavs just looking for a guy with playoff expierence? They have that all over their roster... Love (63 playoff games and a championship), Lopez (36 playoff games), Neto (27 playoff games), Cedi (14 playoff games, went to the Finals), Rubio (11 playoff games), Allen (9 playoff games), and LeVert (9 playoff games). Mitchell has never made it passed the 2nd round, coulda paid a lot less for a guy with playoff expierence.

Conley and Garland play completely different styles of basketball.

The Jazz built their offense around an under 25 year old Donovan Mitchell and in the playoffs had the top offensive rating in 2020 and top 2 in 2021. In those years, he raised his TS% by an average of 8.5% and shot an additional 2.0 FGA/36. Team achievements do not equal individual skill.

If we want to bring up playoff game count, Mitchell has 39 which is more than any player besides Love (though Love does have 491 more games played than Mitchell).

You compared him to four top 75 players of all time (Kawhi, KD, AD, and Harden) which no one is saying he is on the level of and PG13 who has supposedly underplayed in the playoffs in his career (I don't subscribe to this idea personally). I don't really want to comment on Ben Simmons or Kyrie for separate reasons.

[JujitsuFlip]

I’m not passing on my BMW to drive a Ford just because the price is less.

In the NBA, asset consolidation is key. The Cavs have premium assets (Allen, Mobley, Garland, Mitchell) that they can send out in a trade for a star that fits better. That opens up possibilities to deal with competitive teams that weren’t present before.

If you have a premium asset to return, the deals look more like Wiggins for Love, Simmons for Harden, Irving for Brk #1. If you don’t:

Anthony Davis for Lonzo Ball, Brandon Ingram, 2019 #4 + 2x more FRPs

Paul George for Gallinari, Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, + 5x FRPs

Harden for Jarrett Allen, Caris LeVert, Taurean Prince and 3FRPs + 4 pick swaps.

The consolidation trade is always the most expensive.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The bold is not a good comparison lol

The question isn't should asset consolidation happen or not... The question is first off the timing and second of all the piece that was consolidated for.

I'd much rather have PG13, Kawhi, KD, AD, Harden, Ben, or 2017 Irving than Mitchell... Koby gave up so much for an unproven guy who doesn't fit. Cavs coulda had a lesser version of Mitchell in Sexton for ~17.5 million AAV and still had all of their 1st round draft picks to use in trades to upgrade the roster.

RoCo and Powell were acquired for a future 2nd rounder for crying out loud. Those 2 fit perfectly with Allen, Mobley, and Garland plus are much cheaper salary wise and assets used to obtain wise.

Well, for one thing you left out that the Clippers included Keon Johnson (the 21st pick in the 2021 draft) in the trade and wanted cap relief. It's quite possible we did talk to them but couldn't offer a better deal and/or didn't want to tie up our cap space.

As for the piece we consolidated for, Mitchell has a career playoff average of 28/4.9/4.7 for $30.3M and has never missed the playoffs in his career. RoCo averages 9.7/5.7/1.2 for $12.3M and Powell averages 17/2.2/2.0 for $16.7M.

So when it counts the most Mitchell produces as much offense as those two older players for nearly the same price?

That's a pretty big deal and worth a premium *if* we can deal with the defensive difference.

But we can't re-litigate the past or even control who's going to hit the market. If a "PG13", "KD', or "AD" level player was to hit the open market are we better having a premium asset like Mitchell or a bunch of decent players and risky future picks?

There's a fair case we're better with Mitchell, so, it's wrong to say we've wasted the assets we gave up for him. We've just transformed them. For better or worse is tbd, but at least we have the player under team control for 3 seasons and when he can consider jumping ship, he will be 29 years old (Powell's current age) as Evan is just starting his non-rookie contract.

Mitchell throughout the bulk of his prime years would be pretty sweet. He will likely start to drop-off after 30, but stars are often still worth a max deal even with lesser production - at least the ones that can shoot and still create offense. CJ McCollum seems like a floor for Mitchell and the Pelicans seemed happy to trade for him and pay him $69M for 2 additional years even after it got to the point Portland decided they had to break up their team.

After the 21st pick was on the roster for half the season, Cavs gave Agbaji zero games. A lot of people could've topped the package they accepted.

There's a lot more to basketball than scoring, there's a whole other end of the floor.

As Krupted showed, it is much better to have lots of picks and young guys to acquire a star.

The Blazers also had two 6'3" guys who were suspect defenders and they never won anything. Cavs are locked in to an even smaller back court duo with similar defensive limitations...

[ijspeelman]

The bold is not a good comparison lol

The question isn't should asset consolidation happen or not... The question is first off the timing and second of all the piece that was consolidated for.

I'd much rather have PG13, Kawhi, KD, AD, Harden, Ben, or 2017 Irving than Mitchell... Koby gave up so much for an unproven guy who doesn't fit. Cavs coulda had a lesser version of Mitchell in Sexton for ~17.5 million AAV and still had all of their 1st round draft picks to use in trades to upgrade the roster.

RoCo and Powell were acquired for a future 2nd rounder for crying out loud. Those 2 fit perfectly with Allen, Mobley, and Garland plus are much cheaper salary wise and assets used to obtain wise.

Well, for one thing you left out that the Clippers included Keon Johnson (the 21st pick in the 2021 draft) in the trade and wanted cap relief. It's quite possible we did talk to them but couldn't offer a better deal and/or didn't want to tie up our cap space.

As for the piece we consolidated for, Mitchell has a career playoff average of 28/4.9/4.7 for $30.3M and has never missed the playoffs in his career. RoCo averages 9.7/5.7/1.2 for $12.3M and Powell averages 17/2.2/2.0 for $16.7M.

So when it counts the most Mitchell produces as much offense as those two older players for nearly the same price?

That's a pretty big deal and worth a premium *if* we can deal with the defensive difference.

But we can't re-litigate the past or even control who's going to hit the market. If a "PG13", "KD', or "AD" level player was to hit the open market are we better having a premium asset like Mitchell or a bunch of decent players and risky future picks?

There's a fair case we're better with Mitchell, so, it's wrong to say we've wasted the assets we gave up for him. We've just transformed them. For better or worse is tbd, but at least we have the player under team control for 3 seasons and when he can consider jumping ship, he will be 29 years old (Powell's current age) as Evan is just starting his non-rookie contract.

Mitchell throughout the bulk of his prime years would be pretty sweet. He will likely start to drop-off after 30, but stars are often still worth a max deal even with lesser production - at least the ones that can shoot and still create offense. CJ McCollum seems like a floor for Mitchell and the Pelicans seemed happy to trade for him and pay him $69M for 2 additional years even after it got to the point Portland decided they had to break up their team.

After the 21st pick was on the roster for half the season, Cavs gave Agbaji zero games. A lot of people could've topped the package they accepted.

There's a lot more to basketball than scoring, there's a whole other end of the floor.

As Krupted showed, it is much better to have lots of picks and young guys to acquire a star.

The Blazers also had two 6'3" guys who were suspect defenders and they never won anything. Cavs are locked in to an even smaller back court duo with similar defensive limitations...

Unlike the Blazers, the Cavs do have two defensive titans in the frontcourt. Not saying the defense for sure will be great, but I cannot see it being much worse than this year.

[JujitsuFlip]

The term "unproven" doesn't fit. He has a history of elevating his play in the playoffs even considering his abysmal showing last time around.

The phrase "doesn't fit" is unproven. We have seen exactly zero minutes of Donovan Mitchell on the Cavaliers so we have no clue if he fits or doesn't fit. We can make generalizations, but he hasn't shown on the Jazz he doesn't fit next to another guard (see Conley) and Donovan Mitchell is not the same player as Sexton (or similar tier according to your assessment).

What has that accomplished? He's never won on any level or any stage. Were the Cavs just looking for a guy with playoff expierence? They have that all over their roster... Love (63 playoff games and a championship), Lopez (36 playoff games), Neto (27 playoff games), Cedi (14 playoff games, went to the Finals), Rubio (11 playoff games), Allen (9 playoff games), and LeVert (9 playoff games). Mitchell has never made it passed the 2nd round, coulda paid a lot less for a guy with playoff expierence.

Conley and Garland play completely different styles of basketball.

The Jazz built their offense around an under 25 year old Donovan Mitchell and in the playoffs had the top offensive rating in 2020 and top 2 in 2021. In those years, he raised his TS% by an average of 8.5% and shot an additional 2.0 FGA/36. Team achievements do not equal individual skill.

If we want to bring up playoff game count, Mitchell has 39 which is more than any player besides Love (though Love does have 491 more games played than Mitchell).

I don't really see what you are getting at with Mitchell being unproven in the playoffs. Just because someone . You compared him to four top 75 players of all time (Kawhi, KD, AD, and Harden) which no one is saying he is on the level on, PG13 who is not available, Ben Simmons who is unavailable to play,

Who cares how good he is individually if it never leads to team success...

Cool, there are lots of players with playoff expierence that do not cost 6 first round picks to acquire, if that is what the Cavs were after.

You're right, he is not on their level and the Cavs paid a price of assets like he was on that level or better. It was a terrible trade, Ainge swindled Koby once and knew he could do it again.

[ijspeelman]

What has that accomplished? He's never won on any level or any stage. Were the Cavs just looking for a guy with playoff expierence? They have that all over their roster... Love (63 playoff games and a championship), Lopez (36 playoff games), Neto (27 playoff games), Cedi (14 playoff games, went to the Finals), Rubio (11 playoff games), Allen (9 playoff games), and LeVert (9 playoff games). Mitchell has never made it passed the 2nd round, coulda paid a lot less for a guy with playoff expierence.

Conley and Garland play completely different styles of basketball.

The Jazz built their offense around an under 25 year old Donovan Mitchell and in the playoffs had the top offensive rating in 2020 and top 2 in 2021. In those years, he raised his TS% by an average of 8.5% and shot an additional 2.0 FGA/36. Team achievements do not equal individual skill.

If we want to bring up playoff game count, Mitchell has 39 which is more than any player besides Love (though Love does have 491 more games played than Mitchell).

Who cares how good he is individually if it never leads to team success...

Cool, there are lots of players with playoff expierence that do not cost 6 first round picks to acquire, if that is what the Cavs were after.

You're right, he is not on their level and the Cavs paid a price of assets like he was on that level or better. It was a terrible trade, Ainge swindled Koby once and knew he could do it again.

I don't agree with "Cavs paid a price of assets like he was on that level or better." They paid the price for a 26 year old three-time all-star with three (possibly four) years left on their contract during their prime at the expense of future equity. The list of 26 and younger multiple time all-star bordering all-nba players with three or more years left on their contract traded in the last ten years: Donovan Mitchell and Ben Simmons. Basically, this is wildly unprecedented.

I just don't think we can judge a trade like this until we actually see it in action. As you said, it depends on team success and currently the Cavs haven't lost a game with Mitchell on the roster.

[JujitsuFlip]

The Jazz built their offense around an under 25 year old Donovan Mitchell and in the playoffs had the top offensive rating in 2020 and top 2 in 2021. In those years, he raised his TS% by an average of 8.5% and shot an additional 2.0 FGA/36. Team achievements do not equal individual skill.

If we want to bring up playoff game count, Mitchell has 39 which is more than any player besides Love (though Love does have 491 more games played than Mitchell).

Who cares how good he is individually if it never leads to team success...

Cool, there are lots of players with playoff expierence that do not cost 6 first round picks to acquire, if that is what the Cavs were after.

You're right, he is not on their level and the Cavs paid a price of assets like he was on that level or better. It was a terrible trade, Ainge swindled Koby once and knew he could do it again.

I don't agree with "Cavs paid a price of assets like he was on that level or better." They paid the price for a 26 year old three-time all-star with three (possibly four) years left on their contract during their prime at the expense of future equity. The list of 26 and younger multiple time all-star bordering all-nba players with three or more years left on their contract traded in the last ten years: Donovan Mitchell and Ben Simmons. Basically, this is wildly unprecedented.

I just don't think we can judge a trade like this until we actually see it in action. As you said, it depends on team success and currently the Cavs haven't lost a game with Mitchell on the roster.

Nor have they won any championships, made the Finals, heck even made the playoffs with him on the roster.

He said in his presser he thought he would be in NYC but long as the Cavs win, then no problem. Win as in a ring? Win as in what, duplicating the early playoff exits he had with the Jazz? It's such a vague statement, Cavs have a 3 year window, they better sign a SF next summer. They could potentially have top 5 picks in 2027, 2028, and 2029 that they don't even own the rights to

[ijspeelman]

Who cares how good he is individually if it never leads to team success...

Cool, there are lots of players with playoff expierence that do not cost 6 first round picks to acquire, if that is what the Cavs were after.

You're right, he is not on their level and the Cavs paid a price of assets like he was on that level or better. It was a terrible trade, Ainge swindled Koby once and knew he could do it again.

I don't agree with "Cavs paid a price of assets like he was on that level or better." They paid the price for a 26 year old three-time all-star with three (possibly four) years left on their contract during their prime at the expense of future equity. The list of 26 and younger multiple time all-star bordering all-nba players with three or more years left on their contract traded in the last ten years: Donovan Mitchell and Ben Simmons. Basically, this is wildly unprecedented.

I just don't think we can judge a trade like this until we actually see it in action. As you said, it depends on team success and currently the Cavs haven't lost a game with Mitchell on the roster.

Nor have they won any championships, made the Finals, heck even made the playoffs with him on the roster.

He said in his presser he thought he would be in NYC but long as the Cavs win, then no problem. Win as in a ring? Win as in what, duplicating the early playoff exits he had with the Jazz? It's such a vague statement, Cavs have a 3 year window, they better sign a SF next summer. They could potentially have top 5 picks in 2027, 2028, and 2029 that they don't even own the rights to

It is easy to admit that these three years are both very short and very long. A few missteps and this window with Mitchell are over. We have three chances at the playoffs before Mitchell evaluates the situation. I assume the Cavs have to at least make a Conference Finals appearance in either of 2023-24 or 2024-25 for Mitchell to consider us as "winning". That doesn't seem farfetched in my eyes, but teams get unlucky with injuries or just numbers swinging the wrong way all the time.

You already know I like this move for the up-swing potential so I won't harp on it too long. It raises our ceiling for the next three years by a wide margin where we have the potential to be a top four team. Its hard to get there in the NBA, especially with a young roster. In Cavaliers' history, we've been in the mix of the top four teams with three different iterations in our 52 year history. The fact that this four-man core can be one of those teams is special.

Will this iteration be one of those teams? Hopefully, as that would mark this experiment as a success (in my eyes).