Game 53: Heat @ Cavs 1/31/2023

[jbk1234]

This hits on my main point ... these losses hurt because we played so well and should have won; but most of the reasons we lost are fixable.

Can JBB help the guys fix them? Will they figure it out on their own? How long will it take? How much of it is bumps & bruises like Mitchell's hamstring?

We'll just have to see.

My big issue is that it takes us a little too long to see what the other team is giving us. I mean Miami's game plan was all kinds of stupid last night. They had no answer to Allen and Mobley inside and were content with getting punished in the key if it meant they could maximize their perimeter defense. That's a gift.

Allen and Mobley were a combined 33 points on 23 attempts and that's with Mobley jacking up two ill-advised three-point attempts (which really needs to stop btw). It was there for most of the night and in a game you only lost by three, three or four more passes inside would've made the difference.

Short of being able to listen in to the bench huddles, it's just hard to say what's going on. We apparently play a lot of random offense and that implies to me that a lot of the decision making is on the fly on the floor and the players just need to work it out and learn to deal with nuances such as what's a good shot for Donovan Mitchell when 100% is not necessarily a good shot recovering from a hamstring injury.

As for Evan, he was 2 for 2 and 1 for 1 on his 3's in the past two games - so I can certainly understand hoping he'd make them. And while it would be a lot smarter for them to push their advantage in the paint, it's always been easier said than done when opponents are able to pack the paint.

That Clippers game shouldn't be used as a benchmark for anything. Cedi went 7 for 7. They were playing G League guys. was the equivalent of shooting in an empty gym.

Those three point attempts by Mobley almost always result in an empty possession and half the time, a bucket going the other way. He doesn't follow his shot or start to get back on defense after taking them. The corner on offense is the very last place he should be. He's to versatile on offense and there's way too much space within the arc from which he can operate. He's not Allen.

[JonFromVA]

My big issue is that it takes us a little too long to see what the other team is giving us. I mean Miami's game plan was all kinds of stupid last night. They had no answer to Allen and Mobley inside and were content with getting punished in the key if it meant they could maximize their perimeter defense. That's a gift.

Allen and Mobley were a combined 33 points on 23 attempts and that's with Mobley jacking up two ill-advised three-point attempts (which really needs to stop btw). It was there for most of the night and in a game you only lost by three, three or four more passes inside would've made the difference.

Short of being able to listen in to the bench huddles, it's just hard to say what's going on. We apparently play a lot of random offense and that implies to me that a lot of the decision making is on the fly on the floor and the players just need to work it out and learn to deal with nuances such as what's a good shot for Donovan Mitchell when 100% is not necessarily a good shot recovering from a hamstring injury.

As for Evan, he was 2 for 2 and 1 for 1 on his 3's in the past two games - so I can certainly understand hoping he'd make them. And while it would be a lot smarter for them to push their advantage in the paint, it's always been easier said than done when opponents are able to pack the paint.

That Clippers game shouldn't be used as a benchmark for anything. Cedi went 7 for 7. They were playing G League guys. was the equivalent of shooting in an empty gym.

Those three point attempts by Mobley almost always result in an empty possession and half the time, a bucket going the other way. He doesn't follow his shot or start to get back on defense after taking them. The corner on offense is the very last place he should be. He's to versatile on offense and there's way too much space within the arc from which he can operate. He's not Allen.

Young player, young team ... you can't have everything / do everything at once. We do want Evan to be able to space the floor, it would make things so much easier and let us keep Allen long-term as our C.

Personally, I'd tell him to go find "his spot" and don't set up for or shoot a 3pter from anywhere else until he gets good from there. I'd do the same with some 2pt locations as well; but maybe our lack of set plays makes this sort of thing harder?

[jbk1234]

Short of being able to listen in to the bench huddles, it's just hard to say what's going on. We apparently play a lot of random offense and that implies to me that a lot of the decision making is on the fly on the floor and the players just need to work it out and learn to deal with nuances such as what's a good shot for Donovan Mitchell when 100% is not necessarily a good shot recovering from a hamstring injury.

As for Evan, he was 2 for 2 and 1 for 1 on his 3's in the past two games - so I can certainly understand hoping he'd make them. And while it would be a lot smarter for them to push their advantage in the paint, it's always been easier said than done when opponents are able to pack the paint.

That Clippers game shouldn't be used as a benchmark for anything. Cedi went 7 for 7. They were playing G League guys. was the equivalent of shooting in an empty gym.

Those three point attempts by Mobley almost always result in an empty possession and half the time, a bucket going the other way. He doesn't follow his shot or start to get back on defense after taking them. The corner on offense is the very last place he should be. He's to versatile on offense and there's way too much space within the arc from which he can operate. He's not Allen.

Young player, young team ... you can't have everything / do everything at once. We do want Evan to be able to space the floor, it would make things so much easier and let us keep Allen long-term as our C.

Personally, I'd tell him to go find "his spot" and don't set up for or shoot a 3pter from anywhere else until he gets good from there. I'd do the same with some 2pt locations as well; but maybe our lack of set plays makes this sort of thing harder?

I'd let him find his spot from 3 in the summer. We can't afford to let him burn possessions the rest of this season. It's winning time. Plus, he can operate from a multitude of areas from within the arc so as long as we're starting a credible threat from 3 at SF, it shouldn't be a problem.

I just hope we don't get into a Billy Bean situation with JBB where Altman has to trade one of LeVert or Okoro because JBB insists on closing with one or the other regardless of the circumstances.

[JonFromVA]

That Clippers game shouldn't be used as a benchmark for anything. Cedi went 7 for 7. They were playing G League guys. was the equivalent of shooting in an empty gym.

Those three point attempts by Mobley almost always result in an empty possession and half the time, a bucket going the other way. He doesn't follow his shot or start to get back on defense after taking them. The corner on offense is the very last place he should be. He's to versatile on offense and there's way too much space within the arc from which he can operate. He's not Allen.

Young player, young team ... you can't have everything / do everything at once. We do want Evan to be able to space the floor, it would make things so much easier and let us keep Allen long-term as our C.

Personally, I'd tell him to go find "his spot" and don't set up for or shoot a 3pter from anywhere else until he gets good from there. I'd do the same with some 2pt locations as well; but maybe our lack of set plays makes this sort of thing harder?

I'd let him find his spot from 3 in the summer. We can't afford to let him burn possessions the rest of this season. It's winning time. Plus, he can operate from a multitude of areas from within the arc so as long as we're starting a credible threat from 3 at SF, it shouldn't be a problem.

I just hope we don't get into a Billy Bean situation with JBB where Altman has to trade one of LeVert or Okoro because JBB insists on closing with one or the other regardless of the circumstances.

Meh, this is all part of development, and it's not like Mobley is going nuts out there. Just 2 attempts after making 3 in a row, had a game winner just a month ago, and was basically star of this game.

And if any of our "shooters" actually shot 3's as well as Caris and Isaac did in this game; we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[jbk1234]

Young player, young team ... you can't have everything / do everything at once. We do want Evan to be able to space the floor, it would make things so much easier and let us keep Allen long-term as our C.

Personally, I'd tell him to go find "his spot" and don't set up for or shoot a 3pter from anywhere else until he gets good from there. I'd do the same with some 2pt locations as well; but maybe our lack of set plays makes this sort of thing harder?

I'd let him find his spot from 3 in the summer. We can't afford to let him burn possessions the rest of this season. It's winning time. Plus, he can operate from a multitude of areas from within the arc so as long as we're starting a credible threat from 3 at SF, it shouldn't be a problem.

I just hope we don't get into a Billy Bean situation with JBB where Altman has to trade one of LeVert or Okoro because JBB insists on closing with one or the other regardless of the circumstances.

Meh, this is all part of development, and it's not like Mobley is going nuts out there. Just 2 attempts after making 3 in a row, had a game winner just a month ago, and was basically star of this game.

And if any of our "shooters" actually shot 3's as well as Caris and Isaac did in this game; we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Against a team like Heat, who's starting a 6'5" Martin at PF, it's letting them off the hook, and in the 4th quarter of a tight game, it's not a smart play.

[JonFromVA]

I'd let him find his spot from 3 in the summer. We can't afford to let him burn possessions the rest of this season. It's winning time. Plus, he can operate from a multitude of areas from within the arc so as long as we're starting a credible threat from 3 at SF, it shouldn't be a problem.

I just hope we don't get into a Billy Bean situation with JBB where Altman has to trade one of LeVert or Okoro because JBB insists on closing with one or the other regardless of the circumstances.

Meh, this is all part of development, and it's not like Mobley is going nuts out there. Just 2 attempts after making 3 in a row, had a game winner just a month ago, and was basically star of this game.

And if any of our "shooters" actually shot 3's as well as Caris and Isaac did in this game; we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Against a team like Heat, who's starting a 6'5" Martin at PF, it's letting them off the hook, and in the 4th quarter of a tight game, it's not a smart play.

We weren't out rebounded by the Heat because Evan was trying to space the floor, but let's not confuse Evan as a rebounder with say Tristan Thompson or Andy Varejao ... and Allen is pretty good, but Bam can out-muscle him.

In other words, our height advantage is no guarantee we can dominate the paint.

[jbk1234]

Meh, this is all part of development, and it's not like Mobley is going nuts out there. Just 2 attempts after making 3 in a row, had a game winner just a month ago, and was basically star of this game.

And if any of our "shooters" actually shot 3's as well as Caris and Isaac did in this game; we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Against a team like Heat, who's starting a 6'5" Martin at PF, it's letting them off the hook, and in the 4th quarter of a tight game, it's not a smart play.

We weren't out rebounded by the Heat because Evan was trying to space the floor, but let's not confuse Evan as a rebounder with say Tristan Thompson or Andy Varejao ... and Allen is pretty good, but Bam can out-muscle him.

In other words, our height advantage is no guarantee we can dominate the paint.

On a night when he's 9 of 13 from inside the arc, those two 3 point attempts are letting the Heat off the hook and not just on the boards.

[JonFromVA]

Against a team like Heat, who's starting a 6'5" Martin at PF, it's letting them off the hook, and in the 4th quarter of a tight game, it's not a smart play.

We weren't out rebounded by the Heat because Evan was trying to space the floor, but let's not confuse Evan as a rebounder with say Tristan Thompson or Andy Varejao ... and Allen is pretty good, but Bam can out-muscle him.

In other words, our height advantage is no guarantee we can dominate the paint.

On a night when he's 9 of 13 from inside the arc, those two 3 point attempts are letting the Heat off the hook and not just on the boards.

Who's letting the Heat off the hook?

Evan only took 2 shots in the 4th quarter. His first shot, we spaced the floor, Allen was out of the game, we managed to pull Bam out of the paint, and Evan drove in from the 3pt line and scored over Martin.

His 2nd shot was the 3pt attempt from the corner where Bam was sitting almost under the rim a couple of steps off Allen and Butler was able to contest the shot but probably would have helped if Evan drove. The shot was still on line and hit front rim.

Evan as just a 2nd year player is supposed to be costing us games ... the amazing thing is he's really not.

This loss was on dumb turnovers and not being able to make shots.

[TheLand13]

Cavs continue to tread water. Mr 4 firsts Mitchell missing a big free throw and doing nothing in the 4th. This was a big game he should be taking over. Very disappointing......wade was wide open whole he was playing hero ball.

I am going from being underwhelmed by the trade to feeling like it's going to be a disaster when it's all said and done. Mitchell and Garland looks like a terrible pairing. They don't compliment each other in any way. The cavs made a mistake they have to undo that mistake before it's top late.

Underwhelmed by the trade? Mitchell’s an all star starter and Cleveland has a top ten offense despite Kevin Love practically becoming unplayable at this point.

What were you expecting? Mitchell to be a top three player in the league?

I was expecting an impact. Honestly what's the impact? Same win total as last year. A bit better offense. Every team has role players that Decline or disappoint. You had two huge games now against Eastern conference playoff teams and he was invisible. Top 3 player no but a top 10 should be taking over these games. He is nice to have in that when Garland was out its not a disaster but I dont see anything he brings that guy like Brunsen, Murray, Brogdon, Jordan Poole....there are lots of volume scorers that could be put in this role.

Great he is an all star......now can he add wins like one.

At least ten of our wins alone are due almost entirely to him. You can't expect him to carry us to victory every single time. If two games is the most you can come up with as examples where he didn't step up, then I would say you have a pretty weak and small sample size. And it's especially made worse by the fact that he has a 71 point game on his resume this season. He's stepped up more than enough times. Him doing so isn't the problem and for some reason you're pretending it is.

Kevin Love has become unplayable since the thumb injury. We've had injuries to other key players who are only just now recently getting back. Garland and Mitchell still need time to get used to playing alongside each other and just haven't had it consistently due to (surprise) injuries. These are big losses and they've had a major impact on the team, another thing that you, for some reason, are ignoring.

Now should we have a better record? Absolutely. There are some games that we had no business losing in the first place and yet that's what they show up as on our record. And there are absolutely some issues that Mitchell has had. While he's having a really great season, I still don't think he's playing within the offense, which is something he needs to learn to do. I'm happy that we have another player capable of finding his own shot, but his style of play can and usually does disrupt the flow of the offense. He needs to let Garland take full control of the offense and play off of that. He doesn't have to be a 30 PPG player for us to succeed.

You can find a lot of things to critique about this trade. But how Mitchell has been playing as a whole this season is not one of them. That's a very odd take.

[afarmenian]

Underwhelmed by the trade? Mitchell’s an all star starter and Cleveland has a top ten offense despite Kevin Love practically becoming unplayable at this point.

What were you expecting? Mitchell to be a top three player in the league?

I was expecting an impact. Honestly what's the impact? Same win total as last year. A bit better offense. Every team has role players that Decline or disappoint. You had two huge games now against Eastern conference playoff teams and he was invisible. Top 3 player no but a top 10 should be taking over these games. He is nice to have in that when Garland was out its not a disaster but I dont see anything he brings that guy like Brunsen, Murray, Brogdon, Jordan Poole....there are lots of volume scorers that could be put in this role.

Great he is an all star......now can he add wins like one.

At least ten of our wins alone are due almost entirely to him. You can't expect him to carry us to victory every single time. If two games is the most you can come up with as examples where he didn't step up, then I would say you have a pretty weak and small sample size. And it's especially made worse by the fact that he has a 71 point game on his resume this season. He's stepped up more than enough times. Him doing so isn't the problem and for some reason you're pretending it is.

Kevin Love has become unplayable since the thumb injury. We've had injuries to other key players who are only just now recently getting back. Garland and Mitchell still need time to get used to playing alongside each other and just haven't had it consistently due to (surprise) injuries. These are big losses and they've had a major impact on the team, another thing that you, for some reason, are ignoring.

Now should we have a better record? Absolutely. There are some games that we had no business losing in the first place and yet that's what they show up as on our record. And there are absolutely some issues that Mitchell has had. While he's having a really great season, I still don't think he's playing within the offense, which is something he needs to learn to do. I'm happy that we have another player capable of finding his own shot, but his style of play can and usually does disrupt the flow of the offense. He needs to let Garland take full control of the offense and play off of that. He doesn't have to be a 30 PPG player for us to succeed.

You can find a lot of things to critique about this trade. But how Mitchell has been playing as a whole this season is not one of them. That's a very odd take.

I mean you literally are saying the same thing I am saying by stating he is playing well but disrupting the offense and the Cavs have lost games they should be winning.

It's funny you mention my two examples and then broadly stating he is responsible for 10 of our wins with 0 examples.

EVERY TEAM in the league has injury issues similar to what the Cavs have dealt with. It's a sorry excuse but also another reason having two smallish guards as your primary scorers is a challenge.

You traded all that capital to get a star. Not a good player A STAR. A top 10 to 15 battle tested veteran with playoffs experience. The learning curve should have been quick. The dividends should be bearing fruit.

If they had ran back the same squad from last year can you honestly say we would be significantly worse? I can't and that is horrific the think about.

[JonFromVA]

I was expecting an impact. Honestly what's the impact? Same win total as last year. A bit better offense. Every team has role players that Decline or disappoint. You had two huge games now against Eastern conference playoff teams and he was invisible. Top 3 player no but a top 10 should be taking over these games. He is nice to have in that when Garland was out its not a disaster but I dont see anything he brings that guy like Brunsen, Murray, Brogdon, Jordan Poole....there are lots of volume scorers that could be put in this role.

Great he is an all star......now can he add wins like one.

At least ten of our wins alone are due almost entirely to him. You can't expect him to carry us to victory every single time. If two games is the most you can come up with as examples where he didn't step up, then I would say you have a pretty weak and small sample size. And it's especially made worse by the fact that he has a 71 point game on his resume this season. He's stepped up more than enough times. Him doing so isn't the problem and for some reason you're pretending it is.

Kevin Love has become unplayable since the thumb injury. We've had injuries to other key players who are only just now recently getting back. Garland and Mitchell still need time to get used to playing alongside each other and just haven't had it consistently due to (surprise) injuries. These are big losses and they've had a major impact on the team, another thing that you, for some reason, are ignoring.

Now should we have a better record? Absolutely. There are some games that we had no business losing in the first place and yet that's what they show up as on our record. And there are absolutely some issues that Mitchell has had. While he's having a really great season, I still don't think he's playing within the offense, which is something he needs to learn to do. I'm happy that we have another player capable of finding his own shot, but his style of play can and usually does disrupt the flow of the offense. He needs to let Garland take full control of the offense and play off of that. He doesn't have to be a 30 PPG player for us to succeed.

You can find a lot of things to critique about this trade. But how Mitchell has been playing as a whole this season is not one of them. That's a very odd take.

I mean you literally are saying the same thing I am saying by stating he is playing well but disrupting the offense and the Cavs have lost games they should be winning.

It's funny you mention my two examples and then broadly stating he is responsible for 10 of our wins with 0 examples.

EVERY TEAM in the league has injury issues similar to what the Cavs have dealt with. It's a sorry excuse but also another reason having two smallish guards as your primary scorers is a challenge.

You traded all that capital to get a star. Not a good player A STAR. A top 10 to 15 battle tested veteran with playoffs experience. The learning curve should have been quick. The dividends should be bearing fruit.

If they had ran back the same squad from last year can you honestly say we would be significantly worse? I can't and that is horrific the think about.

There are no guarantee that adding a star to a team is going to go easy, just ask Atlanta?

Back in 2014, we didn't add a star, we added the best player in the game AND a star and we still didn't get the roster balanced until the trade deadline that year, and had to wait another season to sort out the coaching.

The good news is our "core 4" are playing well together and we addressed a major problem with last year's roster when Garland was not on the floor.

If we didn't make the trade, we might have Collin as our backup PG; but he hasn't shown much growth in that area beyond accepting coming off the bench for the Jazz.

[TheLand13]

I was expecting an impact. Honestly what's the impact? Same win total as last year. A bit better offense. Every team has role players that Decline or disappoint. You had two huge games now against Eastern conference playoff teams and he was invisible. Top 3 player no but a top 10 should be taking over these games. He is nice to have in that when Garland was out its not a disaster but I dont see anything he brings that guy like Brunsen, Murray, Brogdon, Jordan Poole....there are lots of volume scorers that could be put in this role.

Great he is an all star......now can he add wins like one.

At least ten of our wins alone are due almost entirely to him. You can't expect him to carry us to victory every single time. If two games is the most you can come up with as examples where he didn't step up, then I would say you have a pretty weak and small sample size. And it's especially made worse by the fact that he has a 71 point game on his resume this season. He's stepped up more than enough times. Him doing so isn't the problem and for some reason you're pretending it is.

Kevin Love has become unplayable since the thumb injury. We've had injuries to other key players who are only just now recently getting back. Garland and Mitchell still need time to get used to playing alongside each other and just haven't had it consistently due to (surprise) injuries. These are big losses and they've had a major impact on the team, another thing that you, for some reason, are ignoring.

Now should we have a better record? Absolutely. There are some games that we had no business losing in the first place and yet that's what they show up as on our record. And there are absolutely some issues that Mitchell has had. While he's having a really great season, I still don't think he's playing within the offense, which is something he needs to learn to do. I'm happy that we have another player capable of finding his own shot, but his style of play can and usually does disrupt the flow of the offense. He needs to let Garland take full control of the offense and play off of that. He doesn't have to be a 30 PPG player for us to succeed.

You can find a lot of things to critique about this trade. But how Mitchell has been playing as a whole this season is not one of them. That's a very odd take.

I mean you literally are saying the same thing I am saying by stating he is playing well but disrupting the offense and the Cavs have lost games they should be winning.

It's funny you mention my two examples and then broadly stating he is responsible for 10 of our wins with 0 examples.

EVERY TEAM in the league has injury issues similar to what the Cavs have dealt with. It's a sorry excuse but also another reason having two smallish guards as your primary scorers is a challenge.

You traded all that capital to get a star. Not a good player A STAR. A top 10 to 15 battle tested veteran with playoffs experience. The learning curve should have been quick. The dividends should be bearing fruit.

If they had ran back the same squad from last year can you honestly say we would be significantly worse? I can't and that is horrific the think about.

The problem is that most of those games we have lost that we should have won aren’t even because of him. You are going to need to do better than two games in a season where we’ve lost 22 games. But I’m sorry, you want examples of games that we won because of him? That’s fair, I guess the 71 point game is only one. What about the 9-0 record where he plays and Garland doesn’t and he averaged over 30 PPG? Is that really not good enough?

Yes, every team has injury issues. The cavaliers are not built to handle injuries to two of their best floor spreaders in Love and Wade. Without them, our offense suffers.

Again, Mitchell is an all star starter. He’s been far more than just a good player this year and I don’t know why you’re acting like he hasn’t been. And no, the learning curve shouldn’t be quick. This is a very young team. Mitchell is only 26 and this is a new environment for him. This isn’t like anything he’s ever been a part of before. Every time Mitchell and Garland don’t play together, that disrupts the learning curve.

I don’t disagree that keeping the old squad wouldn’t have been a bad idea. And I’m not saying there aren’t faults and risks with this trade. I heavily dispute the motion that Mitchell hasn’t done his part and lived up to what we gave up for him. He hasn’t been the problem.

[jbk1234]

I'll say this, none of Mitchell, Rubio, Wade, nor Love are playing at 100%. Love isn't even playing and the Rubio/Wade are on minutes restrictions. As a result, we don't have the margin for error that is normally required for a team starting multiple guys who are 21 or 22. The late game mistakes are going to have to get cleaned up.

[JonFromVA]

I'll say this, none of Mitchell, Rubio, Wade, nor Love are playing at 100%. Love isn't even playing and the Rubio/Wade are on minutes restrictions. As a result, we don't have the margin for error that is normally required for a team starting multiple guys who are 21 or 22. The late game mistakes are going to have to get cleaned up.

Even when we had LeBron, if 2 or 3 other guys didn't step up and make a positive contribution on offense ... we generally lost and he was a computer when it came to dissecting opposing defenses and schemes.