Thorpe: There arn't 5 guys in the league with Tyrus's upside

[Bullsville]

My last thoughts on this subject:

Aldridge, Roy and Gay all went to lousy teams that were able (and willing) to give them minutes. And it's not like they tore up the league:

Aldridge put up 9 and 5 in 22 minutes.
Gay put up 10.8 and 4.5 in 27 minutes.
Roy put up much better numbers, but he also played 4 years of college ball and was known by everyone to be the most NBA-ready player in the lottery.

As I've said on far too many occasions...

"Tyurs plays, Tyrus plays well... big surprise"

[JackFinn]

...

[dougthonus]

M.E., I don't believe that you understood Thorpe's point. He wasn't talking about guys who are better than Tyrus, but guys with more upside. LeBron James has more room to grow than Tyrus? He's going to go from being one of the top 2 players in the league-- maybe the top player-- to being... what, Superman?

If upside just means room to grow then having top 5 upside is the equivalent of being one of the top 5 rawest players in the league (hence being the farthest away from what he could be). In which case, I'm not sure I'd consider it much of a positive statement.

I would use the a player's upside to be his "best case scenario" in which case having top 5 upside would mean that he's got potential to be one of the top 5 best players in the NBA. LeBron's just closer to reaching his upside, it doesn't mean his upside is lower.

By this view, Thrope's statement is ridiculous, so he probably means it like you did. In which case, what does he really mean? There's no one else with more unrealized potential than Tyrus in the league means he's no where near being what he could be, and "what he could be" in that case isn't defined. So he's ultra far away from reaching an undefined point of ability.

[dougthonus]

Also Thrope quotes his improved jumper. He's shooting 28% on jumpers where all of his jumpers are wide open set shots. That's still at the "you get a team fine for shooting" level ability.

The fact that he was a point guard seems irrelevant, because he wasn't a particularly good one (at least he wasn't highly recruited in any way). This is similar to Tyson Chandler having a reputation as a great ball handler in high school.

[kulaz3000]

The fact that he was a point guard seems irrelevant, because he wasn't a particularly good one (at least he wasn't highly recruited in any way). This is similar to Tyson Chandler having a reputation as a great ball handler in high school.

I think the point that Thorpe was trying to make is that Tyrus is a "skilled" player and not just a player who jumps and runs around the court. I don't think Thorpe is under the illusion that he can be some awesome passer and has unbelievable court vision, but moreso that he has alot more to his game then a casual fan may realize, its just yet to be harrnesed and utlizied.

[Ben]

M.E., I don't believe that you understood Thorpe's point. He wasn't talking about guys who are better than Tyrus, but guys with more upside. LeBron James has more room to grow than Tyrus? He's going to go from being one of the top 2 players in the league-- maybe the top player-- to being... what, Superman?

If upside just means room to grow then having top 5 upside is the equivalent of being one of the top 5 rawest players in the league (hence being the farthest away from what he could be). In which case, I'm not sure I'd consider it much of a positive statement.

I would use the a player's upside to be his "best case scenario" in which case having top 5 upside would mean that he's got potential to be one of the top 5 best players in the NBA. LeBron's just closer to reaching his upside, it doesn't mean his upside is lower.

By this view, Thrope's statement is ridiculous, so he probably means it like you did. In which case, what does he really mean? There's no one else with more unrealized potential than Tyrus in the league means he's no where near being what he could be, and "what he could be" in that case isn't defined. So he's ultra far away from reaching an undefined point of ability.

Respectfully disagree, Dougles. I think it's pretty clear that he meant realistic upside. He meant that Tyrus has a lot of room to grow and realistically could reach his potential. Any ol' crappy player could conceivably become unbelievably good but nobody who knows basketball thinks that it will happen. Thorpe thinks that it very well could in Tyrus' case.

This next comment is not addressed to you. But I find it curious and rather sad that, since there was only 1 new piece of information in this thread-- Thorpe praising Thomas-- the bashers aren't discussing that but are just reiterating their same-old, same-old bashing points that we've all heard a million times before. Jeff Jordan stands out as one guy who said, hey, I don't really agree with Thorpe on this issue but he does know basketball, so at least that's an encouraging viewpoint to hear. Kudos for that response.

But some other guys would rather not hear any piece of analysis that undermines their bashing. They would rather have their insistent criticisms borne out than have Tyrus turn out great and help the Bulls. In other words, they would rather be right than happy. To me that's kind of sad.

[JeremyB0001]

When your only skills is jumping, I guess it's hard to argue nobody in the league actually has more room to grow.

Yeah, except according to the OP Thorpe explicitly said that Tyrus has far more skills than people realize. These are the skills of blocking, generating steals, dribbling, passing, getting to the line, and rebounding that I recite a few times a week and Tyrus' detractors either ignore or weakly refute.

Why are people co-signing this guy? You could say the same thing for alot of other young players in the NBA. What does Tyrus have that gives him more upside than guys with similar athleticism like Andray Blatche, Amir Johnson, Josh Smith,Thad Young,Sean Williams,etc...let alone elite level athletes with good skills and fundamentals like Rudy Gay.

As Ben pointed out, if you say someone like Gay or Smith who's already very good has huge upside you're saying he's capable of being one of the best of all time and that's a bit over the top.

Young, Williams, and Blatche are a poor man's Tyrus. They didn't have the athletic ability and/or college success to be drafted as high as Tyrus was.

Why don't we look at the facts here.. TT is NOT playing on one of the worst teams in the entire league. PERIOD.

Implying that Tyrus would be playing similar minutes on a team like the T-Wolves, Grizzlies, Sonics, or pretty much any sub .500 team is either highly dishonest or highly ignorant. Some contending teams like Phoenix would play Tyrus 20+ minutes a game.

Do all you Tyrus supporters have secret press passes and get to see practices?? How do you all know this?

This is a really odd statement because if anyone is assuming facts not in evidence, it's you. Everyone else is reflecting that a player who's a very high draft pick and holds his own in games plays substantial minutes so the team can develop him. Tyrus' development has not been the norm, so if you're defending it, you're assuming there's some good reason we don't know about that he's not playing more.

What I see is a player that has a piss poor attitude, a bad work ethic

Again, you're assuming things that contradict the facts available to us. For instance, if you read the initial post, Thorpe says he talked to Tyrus' teammates and he has no attitude problems whatsoever. As far as the work ethic issue, he apparently spent the offseason working on his jumper and hitting the weight room. The overwhelming majority of the facts contradict your opinion so I'm not sure what your opinion is based on.

and absolutely atrocious basketball sense. He has ZERO balance. Can't jump off of one foot. Can't dribble quickly in control.

I watch the games, other posters watch the games, Thorpe is a professional scout, so while you're entitled with your own scouting opinions, there's very little support for them. You're more or less a member of the Flat Earth Society here or at least a global warming denialist.

how about catching the ball when a perfect ally-oop is fed to you (see Sunday's debacle of a matinee)?

So in other words you're basing your observation on one game? Have you seen Tyrus play in more than one game? Because basically what you're saying here is that an inability to convert alley oops is something that will keep Tyrus from being a good NBA player and that's beyond laughable.

Undersized PF's

Since when is 6'9 undersized for a PF? That's not even taking into account the fact that he plays bigger than your average 6'9 player because of his long arms and jumping ability. If Ben Wallace can make multiple All-Star Games as a 6'7 center, I'm pretty sure Tyrus' size isn't going to hinder his career in any ways.

w/o jumpshot have limited ceilings.

So NBA players aren't capable of improving their jump shot from the age of 21 forwards? I think there are quite a few players in NBA history who would beg to differ with you. There are also more than a few players with a bad to mediocre jumper who had a lot of NBA success.

Thorpe is probably only saying this so he probably won't look like an idiot for proclaiming that Thomas was the best player in the 2006 draft(did he?). Just a guess.

Nope, not that I can recall.

[dougthonus]

Respectfully disagree, Dougles. I think it's pretty clear that he meant realistic upside. He meant that Tyrus has a lot of room to grow and realistically could reach his potential. Any ol' crappy player could conceivably become unbelievably good but nobody who knows basketball thinks that it will happen. Thorpe thinks that it very well could in Tyrus' case.

How is this different from what I said though? A crappy player isn't raw necessarily, just crappy. They don't have room to grow. Again, so Tyrus has the most room to grow, and when he gets there, we don't know where "there" will be, because by your definition Thorpe isn't saying.

All it's really saying is that he has a ton of room to grow which means he's very far away from getting there.

This next comment is not addressed to you. But I find it curious and rather sad that, since there was only 1 new piece of information in this thread-- Thorpe praising Thomas

Thorpe's praise makes little sense to me which is why I think it's open to being bashed. It's not to say that I think Tyrus has little potential. I'd love to see what he can do, and I've been advocating as much as anyone for him to get entitlement minutes over other players due to his potential and our need to develop him. Thorpe's points and analysis don't do it for me though.

You could make a better case praising things Tyrus was able to do last year, and saying "look at what he's already shown he could do" as a method to explain why he's got a lot of potential to be very good. No reason to bring up an improved jumper when he's shooting 28% or say he played point guard in high school when he doesn't have particularly great ball handling or passing skills (not that they are weaknesses, but he's certainly not like Joakim Noah in these areas where they are actual impactful strengths in his game).

[JeremyB0001]

I would use the a player's upside to be his "best case scenario" in which case having top 5 upside would mean that he's got potential to be one of the top 5 best players in the NBA. LeBron's just closer to reaching his upside, it doesn't mean his upside is lower.

By this view, Thrope's statement is ridiculous, so he probably means it like you did. In which case, what does he really mean? There's no one else with more unrealized potential than Tyrus in the league means he's no where near being what he could be, and "what he could be" in that case isn't defined. So he's ultra far away from reaching an undefined point of ability.

I don't think it's possible he think he has the ability reach greater heights than all but four other players in the NBA because he said he wouldn't be surprised if he's a top three player in his class and that math doesn't really add up. If he's saying Tyrus is in the top five in the league in breakout potential, I don't see how that statement is vague, meaningless, or less than flattering.

Also Thrope quotes his improved jumper. He's shooting 28% on jumpers where all of his jumpers are wide open set shots. That's still at the "you get a team fine for shooting" level ability.

I don't really understand your point. Do you think he should've improved more? Or that improvement is irrelevant up until you've reached a certain threshold.

[HoopsGuru25]

As Ben pointed out, if you say someone like Gay or Smith who's already very good has huge upside you're saying he's capable of being one of the best of all time and that's a bit over the top.

Gay and Tyrus are different players. Gay has the same physical skills except that he has a really good offensive skillset to go with it. That raises his ceiling to an entirely different level. I have watched nearly every game of Tyrus Thoms and Josh Smith...Josh Smith 's ball handling and jumpshot aren't that further along to be honest. He may have a slightly better jumpshot and a stronger frame but I don't think he can do anything that Thomas potentially can't. 90% of his game is based on his quickness and athleticism(just like TT).

Young, Williams, and Blatche are a poor man's Tyrus. They didn't have the athletic ability and/or college success to be drafted as high as Tyrus was.

You need to watch more NBA basketball if you really believe that. Sean Williams,Blatche,and and Thad Young are all great athletes for their size.

Since when is 6'9 undersized for a PF? That's not even taking into account the fact that he plays bigger than your average 6'9 player because of his long arms and jumping ability.

Thomas is undersized...He's about 225 pounds which is undersized for PF. To top all that off he has no jumpshot and no low post game. This will severely limit his offensive game in the future unless he develops a great slashing game(which is possible because he's quick as hell)...he has to do alot of work on his handle though.

If Ben Wallace can make multiple All-Star Games as a 6'7 center, I'm pretty sure Tyrus' size isn't going to hinder his career in any ways.

Why would you use such a rare example? I also didn't say his size would hinder him on the defensive end. I think he will be an ALL NBA caliber defender eventually. I'm just pointing out that it's pretty hard to score in the NBA when you are 20 pounds less than the person guarding you and you can't even hit a jumper to keep him honest. I do recall you saying that Tyrus was a better scorer than Aldridge in the summer though despite ignoring that Aldridge had the superior offensive skillset(which you ignored then and are ignoring now). Look at Amare Stoudamire...he became a monster once he added the 15-18 footer in his game.

So NBA players aren't capable of improving their jump shot from the age of 21 forwards? I think there are quite a few players in NBA history who would beg to differ with you. There are also more than a few players with a bad to mediocre jumper who had a lot of NBA success.

Maybe..but his jumper is just as broke as it was last year. I'm not putting too much faith into it but one of the Bulls reporters on the Sun Times who has his own radio show(can't remember his name)has said time and time again that Tyrus is always the 1st person to leave the gym after practice. Maybe he is lying but if true then he will likely be a horrible shooter for the remainder of his career. Tyrus only "skill" on an NBA court that doesn't have anything to do with athleticism is his passing. I'm not sure what the numbers are but he was clearly the Bulls best passer against the zone last year. The other stuff you named(generating steals,blocking shots,geting to the free throw line)are not skills....he is only good at that because he's extremely athletic.

Nope, not that I can recall.

Then why would he make such an outrageous statement? Is he a closet Bulls fan or something? I have seen nothing out of Thomas to make me believe he has any more upside than the average 20-22 year old freak athlete. He could have made the same statement for alot of other young players but he chose Thomas in particular(and for no reason). Did he get a hard-on for Thomas overnight or something?

[Ben]

Doug, I don't know why you even addressed the part that wasn't addressed to you, b/c it really wasn't addressed to you. I don't count you as a Tyrus basher at all, and you're at the top of the list of fans who-- if they're down on a guy-- would rather be proven wrong, and have the guy and the team do well, than the other way 'round.

Re: my interpretation of what you said about Tyrus, if I got you wrong then I apologize.

RE: bringing up Tyrus' improved jumper, sounds to me as if Thorpe has just watched a bunch of games and seen that Tyrus' form is greatly improved rather than look at the stats and see that in fact his jumper % has dipped to 28%. It was at 40% earlier in the season. The bashers wouldn't admit that it looked better then and they're eager to proclaim that he has no jumper now. The bottom line is that his form has improved, and that's probably what Thorpe means.

I've been saying recently that if I were coach, I would bench Thomas every time he takes a jumper longer than 14-15 feet. I want him driving more regularly and more confidently. That's how he draws fouls, too. But his jumper is improved, even if his % is down lately. Both of us know it, and there's no reason for Thorpe not to know it either.

[JeremyB0001]

Again, so Tyrus has the most room to grow, and when he gets there, we don't know where "there" will be, because by your definition Thorpe isn't saying.

I don't understand why Thorpe needs to say precisely what he thinks Tyrus' upside is for his comments to have worthwhile meaning.

All it's really saying is that he has a ton of room to grow which means he's very far away from getting there.

If you're speaking temporally, I don't think the conclusion follows because that's what a breakout season is, a player who takes a huge, sudden step forward. If you're just pointing out that implicit in Thorpe's comments is the fact that Tyrus needs to improve a lot before he's a great NBA player then I think that's obviously true but doesn't mean Thrope's comments lack insight. I think everyone realizes that unlike Howard or Gay, Tyrus isn't a very high caliber NBA player right now. I don't think it's obvious that of players who currently perform at his level, he has the ability to improve more than anyone else because people in this thread are trying to say guys like Blatche and Williams are in the same category. I think that's why Thorpe's comments are valuable (though maybe less so to fans of the team): a lot of people would lump Tyrus in with other players who have untapped potential and Thorpe is saying "No, Tyrus' ability to bust out isn't good, it's extraordinary." Maybe you and I already knew that Doug but plenty of people don't know that or disagree with that.

You could make a better case praising things Tyrus was able to do last year, and saying "look at what he's already shown he could do" as a method to explain why he's got a lot of potential to be very good. No reason to bring up an improved jumper when he's shooting 28% or say he played point guard in high school when he doesn't have particularly great ball handling or passing skills (not that they are weaknesses, but he's certainly not like Joakim Noah in these areas where they are actual impactful strengths in his game).

I guess this answers my previous question, you seem to be saying that improvement is worthless if the skill was poor in the first place is the improvement is moderate and not massive. I can't understand that idea. The ability to work on a skill in the offseason and show improvement and the fact that a 21 year old is showing that he has the ability to improve a skill that is lacking seems highly relevant to me.

Tyrus does have very good passing and ball handling skills for a PF though Doug, whether or not you think they're as good as Noah's skills in those areas. As far as I recall, you've conceded that Tyrus can dribble and pass better than most PF's. You just don't think it's a big deal. For people who think Tyrus has no skills other than jumping - there are three or four posters who take that stance in this thread and probably many non-Bulls fans who believe that's the case since Tyrus rarely plays - Thorpe pointing out these facts is worthwhile. People who think Tyrus has only athleticism and no feel for the game probably disagree with Thorpe's statement that he has the potential to take huge step forwards and Thorpe is saying "No, you don't understand he does have good basketball skills that indicate he is a real basketball player and not just an athlete."

[dougthonus]

I don't understand why Thorpe needs to say precisely what he thinks Tyrus' upside is for his comments to have worthwhile meaning.

I suppose he doesn't need to define anything. However, by taking a numerical position (top 5) then it calls for the debate about what exactly upside means. It's just kind of an undefined statement.

I think we can agree that Thrope means Tyrus will be very good and probably much better than other people will give him credit for.

I guess this answers my previous question, you seem to be saying that improvement is worthless if the skill was poor in the first place is the improvement is moderate and not massive. I can't understand that idea. The ability to work on a skill in the offseason and show improvement and the fact that a 21 year old is showing that he has the ability to improve a skill that is lacking seems highly relevant to me.

Any improvement is worthwhile, however, given the context of the situation I don't feel it made a lot of sense. He's discussing why Tyrus has such great upside. Using an example where he basically improved a skill that was way below the NBA skill level threshold by a small amount and is still way below the NBA skill level threshold does not really support that conclusion.

While I still think that is good, I don't think it's an example of him showing the potential for extraordinary improvement.

Tyrus does have very good passing and ball handling skills for a PF though Doug, whether or not you think they're as good as Noah's skills in those areas.

I don't believe he does. I've gotten into this debate before (possibly with you), and when people discuss this it comes down to the fact that they feel PFs just have no passing or ball handling skills. Tyrus is constantly stripped when trying to dribble. He doesn't exhibit good ball protection. I also called these skills solid (relative to the PF position of low expectations anyway), so it wasn't like I was ripping him for them.

My point here was not that these skills were worthless, but that if I were to praise Tyrus and want to show why he can be so good, then I would be more apt to mention things that are real strengths for him. The fact that he has a tremendous first step, can generate fouls, has outstanding timing with his shot blocking, has extremely quick hands and the ability to generate steals. Can play above the rim at a level few can giving him lots of easier looks and allowing him to make plays others can't.

I wouldn't praise his dribbling when he can't take guys off the dribble or adequately protect the ball in the open court. I wouldn't praise his passing when, while it isn't a weakness, it hasn't been a real strength either. I wouldn't talk about his jump shot which is still so bad that if he didn't improve it, he wouldn't be allowed to shoot it in a few years.

I'm not arguing that Tyrus doesn't have basketball skills, but there are a lot of skills he could have pointed out that he didn't seem to focus on, and those skills are where Tyrus's strengths are.

[JeremyB0001]

Gay and Tyrus are different players. Gay has the same physical skills except that he has a really good offensive skillset to go with it. That raises his ceiling to an entirely different level.

Maybe they're similar physically but that doesn't mean their games and skill sets are the same. Tyrus can't score the way Gay can and Gay can't rebound, steal, play defense, and block shots the way Tyrus does. I think it's pretty clear that Thorpe is talking about "break out potential." Gay averages 19 PPG, do you really think it's more likely for him to have a breakout season than Tyrus? In other words, it's more likely that Gay will average 26 PPG one season soon than it is that Tyrus will average 14 and 10 with outstanding defense? I just can't see that. Or do you think Gay is going to drastically improve in blocks, steals, or rebounds? Those skills are generally pretty constant when you enter the league so I can't see that happening either.

I have watched nearly every game of Tyrus Thoms and Josh Smith...Josh Smith 's ball handling and jumpshot aren't that further along to be honest. He may have a slightly better jumpshot and a stronger frame but I don't think he can do anything that Thomas potentially can't. 90% of his game is based on his quickness and athleticism(just like TT).

Smith shoots 47% on jumpers while Tyrus shoots 28%. Again, Smith averages 18 PPG. He has a lot of potential but I don't see him having a breakout season next year where he's suddenly averaging 25 PPG. I don't know where that improvement would come from all at once. The point is the same, you usually don't choose players who are already playing at a very high level as breakout candidates. It's possible - Howard has done it this season - and someone like Smith is in the conversation more that most players at his level because he's so young. Tyrus looks more like a guy who can "put it together" and I don't think most people would say the same about someone who's already played at a high level like Smith. His improvement is more likely be to incremental than to be a huge breakout season that will put him in contention for most improved player.

You need to watch more NBA basketball if you really believe that. Sean Williams,Blatche,and and Thad Young are all great athletes for their size.

You're not responding to my point. I never said they're not great athletes. I never even said they're not as good as athletes as Tyrus since I said they didn't have Tyrus' athleticism and/orcollege success.

Thomas is undersized...He's about 225 pounds which is undersized for PF.

Ok. It's pretty much unheard of to say that draft prospects (or 21 year olds) are undersized based on weight. If you've read much credible draft coverage, the issue is always height because it's presumed players will be able to add substantial weight in the NBA when they have access to world class strength training and work out facilities. Tyrus has already shown he can do this by adding what appears to be 12-15 pounds of muscle in the off season. What makes you think he can't continue to do so? The one criticism you sometimes see scout types make about weight is that a player seems like he might not be able to add that much weight based on his frame. I can't ever recall seeing such a comment about Tyrus and you haven't made one in this thread.

To top all that off he has no jumpshot and no low post game. This will severely limit his offensive game in the future unless he develops a great slashing game(which is possible because he's quick as hell)...he has to do alot of work on his handle though.

Again, he's 21 years old. I can't understand why you're talking as though his jumper and post game have peaked.

I think he's shown the makings of a promising slashing game.

If Ben Wallace can make multiple All-Star Games as a 6'7 center, I'm pretty sure Tyrus' size isn't going to hinder his career in any ways.

Why would you use such a rare example? I also didn't say his size would hinder him on the defensive end. I think he will be an ALL NBA caliber defender eventually.

Well I assumed you were referring to Tyrus' height since as I've said, that's what people are generally always referring to when they say that a player is undersized. Ben Wallace is 4 or 5 inches too small for his position so my point was that Tyrus isn't in any trouble if he's an inch or two shorter than he should be to play his position. If you want me to list 6'9 PF's I can lists tons and they won't be rare examples. Apparently though, you're unbelievably referring solely to Tyrus' weight when you claim he's undersized so I'll just move on.

I'm just pointing out that it's pretty hard to score in the NBA when you are 20 pounds less than the person guarding you and you can't even hit a jumper to keep him honest.

It doesn't seem to prevent him from rebounding where you'd expect it to hurt him the most. Again, your stance is that Tyrus will not be able to add weight in coming years?

I do recall you saying that Tyrus was a better scorer than Aldridge in the summer though despite ignoring that Aldridge had the superior offensive skillset(which you ignored then and are ignoring now).

Link please.

Maybe..but his jumper is just as broke as it was last year.

You'd have a point if there was a shred of truth to it but an 8% improvement in his field goal percentage on jumpers means your statement is demonstrably false.

I'm not putting too much faith into it but one of the Bulls reporters on the Sun Times who has his own radio show(can't remember his name)has said time and time again that Tyrus is always the 1st person to leave the gym after practice. Maybe he is lying but if true then he will likely be a horrible shooter for the remainder of his career.

Yeah, I mean that'd carry more weight if there wasn't contradictory evidence and if the evidence was substantiated.

Tyrus only "skill" on an NBA court that doesn't have anything to do with athleticism is his passing. I'm not sure what the numbers are but he was clearly the Bulls best passer against the zone last year. The other stuff you named(generating steals,blocking shots,geting to the free throw line)are not skills....he is only good at that because he's extremely athletic.

Blocking shots and rebounding involve timing and positioning. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that generating steals is based on athleticism. Ball handling also has little to do with athleticism. I don't think you can divorce any NBA skills from athleticism completely.

I have seen nothing out of Thomas to make me believe he has any more upside than the average 20-22 year old freak athlete. He could have made the same statement for alot of other young players but he chose Thomas in particular(and for no reason). Did he get a hard-on for Thomas overnight or something?

Your ability to take highly subjective opinions that are not widely supported and make them sound like incontrovertible fact is breathtaking. I think I've alluded to what makes Tyrus special already but the bottom line is that there's a reason he was drafted where he was while guys like Blatche were drafted much lower. He has very rare athleticism and was one of the best players in college basketball in the one season he played. That's highly uncommon and the other 20-22 year old freaks you're referring to who apparently grow on trees didn't accomplish that or they would've been top draft picks also. [/b]

[JeremyB0001]

I suppose he doesn't need to define anything. However, by taking a numerical position (top 5) then it calls for the debate about what exactly upside means. It's just kind of an undefined statement.

Alright. I felt like I could more or less infer what he meant.

I think we can agree that Thrope means Tyrus will be very good and probably much better than other people will give him credit for.

Definitely.

Any improvement is worthwhile, however, given the context of the situation I don't feel it made a lot of sense. He's discussing why Tyrus has such great upside. Using an example where he basically improved a skill that was way below the NBA skill level threshold by a small amount and is still way below the NBA skill level threshold does not really support that conclusion. While I still think that is good, I don't think it's an example of him showing the potential for extraordinary improvement.

I think he's up from 20% to 28% last time I checked. I don't think that's a small improvement. As I said, I think showing meaningful improvement with his jumper says two important things about his upside: 1) you can't pigeonhole him as a player who will only ever be able to score on garbage points or within five feat of the basket 2) he's capable of putting in off season work to improve his game.

I don't think the moderate improvement of his jumper alone suggest extraordinary improvement. The idea that he can fix the ugly parts of his game though (his turnovers have also improved a lot) is pretty meaningful to me because I've always thought one of the main reasons Tyrus' upside is so high is that he entered the league with great athleticism and some outstanding skills that are hard to develop in the NBA (blocks, steals, rebounding) along with some skills that seemed to have much room for improvement because they were very poor and were the type of skills that aren't quite so hard to improve at the NBA level (jump shooting, turnovers, fouls).

Tyrus does have very good passing and ball handling skills for a PF though Doug, whether or not you think they're as good as Noah's skills in those areas.

I don't believe he does. I've gotten into this debate before (possibly with you), and when people discuss this it comes down to the fact that they feel PFs just have no passing or ball handling skills. Tyrus is constantly stripped when trying to dribble. He doesn't exhibit good ball protection. I also called these skills solid.

We've debated it before but you never made the bolded arguments, which seem to be the crux of your position. I don't think a lot of PF's can dribble well enough to take the ball up the court or lead the break the way Tyrus sometimes does. I just don't see it happen. I guess you could argue they can but they're smarter than Tyrus so they don't. I feel like I could count on one hand the number of times I've seen Tyrus stripped so I disagree on that count too. Sometimes he loses the ball in the half court when he's trying to do a spin move or something but I don't really see that as a ball handling error so much.

The fact that he has a tremendous first step, can generate fouls, has outstanding timing with his shot blocking, has extremely quick hands and the ability to generate steals. Can play above the rim at a level few can giving him lots of easier looks and allowing him to make plays others can't

....

I'm not arguing that Tyrus doesn't have basketball skills, but there are a lot of skills he could have pointed out that he didn't seem to focus on, and those skills are where Tyrus's strengths are.

I just think those things are apparent to most people who have some familiarity with Tyrus. Look at is as Thorpe speaking to Tyrus' detractors in this thread. They'd side with you on this point and say "Yeah, we know he can do all those things because he can jump but he doesn't have any skills and never will so his potential isn't much higher than the level he's currently playing at." As I said before, I think Thorpe is arguing that Tyrus' has skills and a feel for the game that people don't recognize and thus a very high potential as compared to the much lower potential of an athlete trying to play basketball. Maybe we disagree whether Tyrus' ball handling and passing are solid or above average but either way, the ultimate conclusion should be similar: he has a basketball foundation that suggests that he can improve and become a very good basketball player and not just a garbage player who succeeds based on athletic ability.

[Susan]

Tyrus has had 17 ball handling turnovers this season, Noah has had 12, Joe Smith 17. So maybe Tyrus isn't getting stripped constantly.

[dougthonus]

Tyrus has had 17 ball handling turnovers this season, Noah has had 12, Joe Smith 17. So maybe Tyrus isn't getting stripped constantly.

Noah and Smith handle the ball quite a bit more in traffic than Tyrus, but it's a fair point, maybe some of Tyrus's turnovers unfairly stand out in my head.

[Susan]

Tyrus has had 17 ball handling turnovers this season, Noah has had 12, Joe Smith 17. So maybe Tyrus isn't getting stripped constantly.

Noah and Smith handle the ball quite a bit more in traffic than Tyrus, but it's a fair point, maybe some of Tyrus's turnovers unfairly stand out in my head.

Noah and Smith never ever play the 3 like Tyrus.

[dougthonus]

Noah and Smith never ever play the 3 like Tyrus.

Noah handles the ball in traffic WAY more. He very consistently uses dribble penetration.

Smith has 50% more minutes than Tyrus with the same number of turnovers. He doesn't really use heavy dribble penetration, but will frequently back people down.

[HoopsGuru25]

Maybe they're similar physically but that doesn't mean their games and skill sets are the same. Tyrus can't score the way Gay can and Gay can't rebound, steal, play defense, and block shots the way Tyrus does.

I know that. I'm saying that Gay has all the physical ability of Thomas plus skills to go along with that physical ability. The reason Tyrus plays PF and not SF(when he has the body of a SF) because he has almost no skills that the average SF has.

I think it's pretty clear that Thorpe is talking about "break out potential." Gay averages 19 PPG, do you really think it's more likely for him to have a breakout season than Tyrus?

When I think of potential I think of how good a player can be when they reach their peak(maybe I'm wrong). When I think of room to grow I think of how much better a player will get throughout their career. Tyrus does have more room to grow than Gay because he's a worse player right now. I would imagine that Darko has more room to improve than Carmelo because he's 20x worse but I don't see why that needs to be said.

Smith shoots 47% on jumpers while Tyrus shoots 28%. Again, Smith averages 18 PPG.

Double check your stats.

He has a lot of potential but I don't see him having a breakout season next year where he's suddenly averaging 25 PPG. I don't know where that improvement would come from all at once. The point is the same, you usually don't choose players who are already playing at a very high level as breakout candidates. It's possible - Howard has done it this season - and someone like Smith is in the conversation more that most players at his level because he's so young. Tyrus looks more like a guy who can "put it together" and I don't think most people would say the same about someone who's already played at a high level like Smith. His improvement is more likely be to incremental than to be a huge breakout season that will put him in contention for most improved player.

I'm not arguing over who has more room to improve..that's a meaningless conversation. I'm saying that Josh Smith and Tyrus Thomas have very similar strength's and very similar weaknesses. Physically the only difference is that Smith may be a little bigger. He scores 18 ppg because he plays for one of the worst coaches in the NBA who has allowed Josh to play reckless and away from his strengths for 4 years. I think Tyrus can be as effective as Smith. Both have the potential to be very good defenders with limited offensive game.

You're not responding to my point. I never said they're not great athletes. I never even said they're not as good as athletes as Tyrus since I said they didn't have Tyrus' athleticism and/orcollege success.

Both Sean Williams and Andray Blatche average twice as many blocked shots as Tyrus. Both also have the ability to play center while Tyrus doesn't. Thad Young is a project SF with great physical ability a good work ethic...I believe he would have been a monster at Ga tech right now had he stayed for his 2nd year like Tyrus. If you take away character issues and all the other BS..do you think New Jersey,Washington,or Philly would trade Williams,Young,or Blatche for Thomas straight up?

Ok. It's pretty much unheard of to say that draft prospects (or 21 year olds) are undersized based on weight. If you've read much credible draft coverage, the issue is always height because it's presumed players will be able to add substantial weight in the NBA when they have access to world class strength training and work out facilities. Tyrus has already shown he can do this by adding what appears to be 12-15 pounds of muscle in the off season. What makes you think he can't continue to do so? The one criticism you sometimes see scout types make about weight is that a player seems like he might not be able to add that much weight based on his frame. I can't ever recall seeing such a comment about Tyrus and you haven't made one in this thread.

You are in denial. Tyrus IS undersized for a PF. Of course he can gain some weight but that doesn't mean he's going to become bigger than the average PF during his tenure in the NBA. His size is more ideal for a SF..not a PF. I'm not saying this will hurt him(he has a great motor)but it is what it is.

Again, he's 21 years old. I can't understand why you're talking as though his jumper and post game have peaked.

His post game and jumpshot are non-existent that's why. Players usually have the foundation for a post game when they are 21. It isn't something you can work on in one off-season and make it your go to move. Tyrus is also too small to have that effective of a post game. He doesn't have the skills or body too. Why would you want him to back down players 20-25 pounds bigger than him? He is more more suited to try to take bigger and slower players off the dribble..he will have a much easier time. I don't think his jumpshot has peaked(and for the Bulls let's hope it hasn't)but there are serious concerns that he may just be a poor shooter for the rest of his career.. I'm just saying that he is an awful jumpshooter that hasn't made much progress from year 1 to year 2 on his J which is disturbing.

I think he's shown the makings of a promising slashing game.

He has a good 1st step and good quickness. He will not be a good slasher until he is better at handling the ball.
[/quote]Well I assumed you were referring to Tyrus' height since as I've said, that's what people are generally always referring to when they say that a player is undersized. Ben Wallace is 4 or 5 inches too small for his position so my point was that Tyrus isn't in any trouble if he's an inch or two shorter than he should be to play his position. If you want me to list 6'9 PF's I can lists tons and they won't be rare examples. Apparently though, you're unbelievably referring solely to Tyrus' weight when you claim he's undersized so I'll just move on.

Tyrus weight is not a major problem. It will probably just limit him from playing center or developing a decent post game. In today's NBA...i would like my PF(especially one who had a top 5 pick used on him) to either be a solid mid range jump shooter or have a reliable low post game.

It doesn't seem to prevent him from rebounding where you'd expect it to hurt him the most. Again, your stance is that Tyrus will not be able to add weight in coming years?

Three of the best rebounders in the NBA(Chandler,Camby,and KG)are all pretty skinny for their positions but they have the athleticism and motor to get rebounds. KG,Chandler,and Camby aren't going to over power many people on the low block though. Most(if not all)of the good low post scorers in the league are over 250 pounds. I'm not saying Thomas won't be able to gain weight however a 215 pound PF is likely to remain undersized for the remainder of his career.

Link please.

I'll look for it in a bit.

Blocking shots and rebounding involve timing and positioning. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that generating steals is based on athleticism. Ball handling also has little to do with athleticism. I don't think you can divorce any NBA skills from athleticism completely.

I consider skills things that have little to nothing to do with athleticism. Passing,ball handling,BBIQ,taking charges,etc have little to nothing to with athleticism. Just about every good shot blocker needs good athleticism or long arms(neither of which can be learned or taught)to block shots. Generating steals is primarily based on athleticism. Look at the league leaders in steals..just about all of them are very quick players. I'm not sure I would call Tyrus great at getting in position for rebounds(though I haven't been paying that much attention). Tyrus is also an average ball handler for a PF..that is not a strength. When you factor in that he is the same size as many other SF's with much better ball handling...then his ball handling is actually pretty garbage if you ask me.

Your ability to take highly subjective opinions that are not widely supported and make them sound like incontrovertible fact is breathtaking.

No...you look at some ones draft position to conclude your opinion. Thomas has not outproduced any of the other raw athletic players I named but he is somewhat better because he was drafted 4th? That makes no sense.

think I've alluded to what makes Tyrus special already but the bottom line is that there's a reason he was drafted where he was while guys like Blatche were drafted much lower.

LOL. Blatche was drafted directly out of highschool where he was ranked MUCH higher than Thomas...so were players like Louis Williams and Monta Ellis who also went in the 2nd round but were 1st round talents. So you are saying Tyrus would have gone in the 2nd round if he came to the NBA directly out of highschool? Did you even know who Tyrus Thomas was before November of 2005?

He has very rare athleticism and was one of the best players in college basketball in the one season he played. That's highly uncommon and the other 20-22 year old freaks you're referring to who apparently grow on trees didn't accomplish that or they would've been top draft picks also.

You are living in a fantasy world. Thomas has not outproduced the players I named since he has been in the league. He also doesn't have a clear advantage in physical ability either. Saying Thomas has any more potential than Sean Williams,Amir Johnson,Thaddeus Young,or Andray Blatche is pure homerism.