Potential Zach Trade Partners? Playoff Edition.

[Red8911]

Ingram, Wiggins ... man. If that's what we're talking, let's keep Zach. Last year was a write-off but the previous years he was a useful player. Ingram is an ongoing mess and Wiggins is a 10th man who is not paid like a 10th man.

Zach is done as a Bull. At this point even if Demar walks in FA Zach is still getting traded. The relationship is over, time to move on for both sides.

[MrSparkle]

I think AKME are going to get a Zach trade done by August, and I think it's going to look OK or good at first glance, but backfire about 3.5 months in... cause that's been the trend with almost every trade they've executed, including the disappointing Blazers pick(up), which very well looks like it'll be a 2nd rounder in 2029.

I think several bounced teams will be looking at scoring punch (Zach):

1. The loser of this PHI/NYK series.
2. Perhaps the loser of that next series (MIL/IND/PHI/NYK).
3. The Heat, presuming they lose to Boston (Herro/Duncan might be back on the table).
4. EH - maybe the Lakers, if they get creative and run it back with Lebron.
5. Pelicans are definitely going to nuke it, while trying to get better. If they could score an insane return for Zion, IMO they'd take it... but Ingram, McCollum and their young players are probably gonna get shuffled, and maybe Zach's a buy-low candidate for them.
6. Mavs, if they lose to LAC or OKC. Their scoring depth is pitiful, and they may be ready to move THJ's expiring and go deeper into their distant FRP stash.

Generally speaking, I think everyone’s going to try to get him without giving a “core” asset (i.e. Sharpe, Cade) nor a top-10 FRP.

[League Circles]

Well, there are reports from K.C. Johnson that there will be activity around trading Zach this summer, not waiting until after he is back.

So you guys are reassuring me by saying there aren't any deals out there. Because the Bulls are trading the wrong guy. But the report makes it sound like that isn't the case.

He also confirms that Zach Lavine never asked the Bulls for a trade, simply agreed, after being out there on the market for some time, that he wouldn't fight their efforts. As I have been trying to explain all along but 80% of the people on here seem to insist otherwise.

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This is the exact quote from KC:

"LaVine’s representation made clear to management that LaVine---for the first time---would be open to a change of address should the losing ways continue. To be clear, LaVine never specifically asked for a trade."

That's a soft ask for a trade. Obviously. What would "fighting their efforts" possibly mean? He doesn't have a no trade clause. Zach kinda wanted out due to the losing and feeling underappreciated and had his agent essentially float the idea as a nudge. Unfortunately for both parties it didn't work. Though I still think there is a notable chance that he stays and that things work out with him in Chicago.

This situation is really hard, because offensively (and obviously defensively), the trio of Zach, Demar and Vuc just doesn't work. None of the three are probably worth a lot, but Zach is definitely worth more than Vuc who is basically just a bad contract for a low level starter, and Demar is a UFA so he's likely not worth nearly what Zach is cause it would have to be a sign and trade. And Demar is probably worth more to the Bulls on the court even if only due to durability and leadership.

I'd personally prioritize dumping Vuc before dumping Zach for sure. I think we're almost forced to re-sign Demar unfortunately (even though I'm a big fan). To me, the most obvious thing to try to do this summer is package Caruso and Vuc for somebody useful with size, and re-sign Demar and Patrick and Drummond. Caruso and Vuc for Draymond Green would be risky but solves a lot of issues IMO:

5: Drummond, Green, #11?
4: Green, Williams
3: Demar, Williams
2: Zach, Ayo
1: Coby, Ayo, Ball?

We're immediately better defensively amd get a really good playmaker as well in Green.

I don't disagree with any of this. Except, on whether Lavine asked for a trade. Again, they had already been trying to actively trade Lavine for months, and it was clear Billy didn't want him there. Lavine simply said he wouldn't fight a trade.

Whether a player of his caliber has a no-trade or not, they can dampen any trade talks by simply stating they don't want to play for the team. You going to trade for a 40 mil salary when the guy says he doesn't want to be there?

My only point is the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

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If he didn't want to be traded his agent wouldn't have said anything to management. He obviously wanted (and may still want) to be traded. I'm not blaming anyone for that (him or the team), but he very clearly and obviously was at least somewhat interested in a change of scenery.

[Stratmaster]

This is the exact quote from KC:

"LaVine’s representation made clear to management that LaVine---for the first time---would be open to a change of address should the losing ways continue. To be clear, LaVine never specifically asked for a trade."

That's a soft ask for a trade. Obviously. What would "fighting their efforts" possibly mean? He doesn't have a no trade clause. Zach kinda wanted out due to the losing and feeling underappreciated and had his agent essentially float the idea as a nudge. Unfortunately for both parties it didn't work. Though I still think there is a notable chance that he stays and that things work out with him in Chicago.

This situation is really hard, because offensively (and obviously defensively), the trio of Zach, Demar and Vuc just doesn't work. None of the three are probably worth a lot, but Zach is definitely worth more than Vuc who is basically just a bad contract for a low level starter, and Demar is a UFA so he's likely not worth nearly what Zach is cause it would have to be a sign and trade. And Demar is probably worth more to the Bulls on the court even if only due to durability and leadership.

I'd personally prioritize dumping Vuc before dumping Zach for sure. I think we're almost forced to re-sign Demar unfortunately (even though I'm a big fan). To me, the most obvious thing to try to do this summer is package Caruso and Vuc for somebody useful with size, and re-sign Demar and Patrick and Drummond. Caruso and Vuc for Draymond Green would be risky but solves a lot of issues IMO:

5: Drummond, Green, #11?
4: Green, Williams
3: Demar, Williams
2: Zach, Ayo
1: Coby, Ayo, Ball?

We're immediately better defensively amd get a really good playmaker as well in Green.

I don't disagree with any of this. Except, on whether Lavine asked for a trade. Again, they had already been trying to actively trade Lavine for months, and it was clear Billy didn't want him there. Lavine simply said he wouldn't fight a trade.

Whether a player of his caliber has a no-trade or not, they can dampen any trade talks by simply stating they don't want to play for the team. You going to trade for a 40 mil salary when the guy says he doesn't want to be there?

My only point is the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

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Zach certainly didn’t play like he wanted to be in Chicago during those first 20 games.

Zach checked out after hearing names in rumors and the Bulls still sucking with Billy D choosing DDR and Vuc over Zach in the offense.

Will be interesting to see if he fights a trade to DET or a team that is worse off than the Bulls. He seems like he wants to win and is fine being the 2nd or 3rd guy.

Strat what do you think will happen with Zach?

I think he will be traded.

I hope they will S&T Demar, trade Vuc, and bring Zach back. Of course, that will be highly unlikely with Billy still here. Neither Demar nor Vuc match the style of play the Bulls claimed they wanted to move toward. Zach does. But I expect they will keep playing 1990's basketball in 2024-2025.

The only way I would hope Zach is traded is if the foot injury is reminiscent of Noah at the end of his years here, where it is going to be a constant and ongoing problem.

[Stratmaster]

This is the exact quote from KC:

"LaVine’s representation made clear to management that LaVine---for the first time---would be open to a change of address should the losing ways continue. To be clear, LaVine never specifically asked for a trade."

That's a soft ask for a trade. Obviously. What would "fighting their efforts" possibly mean? He doesn't have a no trade clause. Zach kinda wanted out due to the losing and feeling underappreciated and had his agent essentially float the idea as a nudge. Unfortunately for both parties it didn't work. Though I still think there is a notable chance that he stays and that things work out with him in Chicago.

This situation is really hard, because offensively (and obviously defensively), the trio of Zach, Demar and Vuc just doesn't work. None of the three are probably worth a lot, but Zach is definitely worth more than Vuc who is basically just a bad contract for a low level starter, and Demar is a UFA so he's likely not worth nearly what Zach is cause it would have to be a sign and trade. And Demar is probably worth more to the Bulls on the court even if only due to durability and leadership.

I'd personally prioritize dumping Vuc before dumping Zach for sure. I think we're almost forced to re-sign Demar unfortunately (even though I'm a big fan). To me, the most obvious thing to try to do this summer is package Caruso and Vuc for somebody useful with size, and re-sign Demar and Patrick and Drummond. Caruso and Vuc for Draymond Green would be risky but solves a lot of issues IMO:

5: Drummond, Green, #11?
4: Green, Williams
3: Demar, Williams
2: Zach, Ayo
1: Coby, Ayo, Ball?

We're immediately better defensively amd get a really good playmaker as well in Green.

I don't disagree with any of this. Except, on whether Lavine asked for a trade. Again, they had already been trying to actively trade Lavine for months, and it was clear Billy didn't want him there. Lavine simply said he wouldn't fight a trade.

Whether a player of his caliber has a no-trade or not, they can dampen any trade talks by simply stating they don't want to play for the team. You going to trade for a 40 mil salary when the guy says he doesn't want to be there?

My only point is the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

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If he didn't want to be traded his agent wouldn't have said anything to management. He obviously wanted (and may still want) to be traded. I'm not blaming anyone for that (him or the team), but he very clearly and obviously was at least somewhat interested in a change of scenery.

Of course he is. But you are ignoring the context, and I will say it again since you ignored it: My point is that the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

[jnrjr79]

I don't disagree with any of this. Except, on whether Lavine asked for a trade. Again, they had already been trying to actively trade Lavine for months, and it was clear Billy didn't want him there. Lavine simply said he wouldn't fight a trade.

Whether a player of his caliber has a no-trade or not, they can dampen any trade talks by simply stating they don't want to play for the team. You going to trade for a 40 mil salary when the guy says he doesn't want to be there?

My only point is the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

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If he didn't want to be traded his agent wouldn't have said anything to management. He obviously wanted (and may still want) to be traded. I'm not blaming anyone for that (him or the team), but he very clearly and obviously was at least somewhat interested in a change of scenery.

Of course he is. But you are ignoring the context, and I will say it again since you ignored it: My point is that the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

I mean, you don't know what actually happened. He obviously wasn't a jerk and didn't make an aggressive trade demand, but he's also seemingly let people know he would be happier elsewhere. That may well be because he was sick of hearing his name in trade rumors. Maybe he wants to win. Maybe he's sick of playing second fiddle to DeMar. Perhaps the rift with Billy still bothers him. I have no idea - it could be all of the above. It's possible he's made a quiet trade request (and, IMO, seems to be the most likely scenario) or simply sent the message that he's fine being traded if that's what the Bulls want to do. But the initial Shams report that both sides are ready to move on clearly indicates that Zach expressed some desire to leave, even if he's being patient and professional about it. Not to mention KC Johnson continues to report that Zach would prefer to be elsewhere.

At the end of the day, I guess I'm not sure what your point is here. Zach wants out...but not super strongly? Zach wants out...but hasn't demanded a trade? These distinctions don't really matter in terms of what the Bulls should be doing moving forward, though if your point is simply that Zach's not being an a-hole, sure, I think we all would agree.

[MrSparkle]

The Zach bridge is 100% burned. The FO has made it quite clear that Donovan is their guy.

[Stratmaster]

The Zach bridge is 100% burned. The FO has made it quite clear that Donovan is their guy.

Absolutely. No one said it wasn't.

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[Jcool0]

The Zach bridge is 100% burned. The FO has made it quite clear that Donovan is their guy.

I think this is more to do with being tired of losing and being scapegoated by the Bulls then hating Donovan.

[Stratmaster]

If he didn't want to be traded his agent wouldn't have said anything to management. He obviously wanted (and may still want) to be traded. I'm not blaming anyone for that (him or the team), but he very clearly and obviously was at least somewhat interested in a change of scenery.

Of course he is. But you are ignoring the context, and I will say it again since you ignored it: My point is that the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

I mean, you don't know what actually happened. He obviously wasn't a jerk and didn't make an aggressive trade demand, but he's also seemingly let people know he would be happier elsewhere. That may well be because he was sick of hearing his name in trade rumors. Maybe he wants to win. Maybe he's sick of playing second fiddle to DeMar. Perhaps the rift with Billy still bothers him. I have no idea - it could be all of the above. It's possible he's made a quiet trade request (and, IMO, seems to be the most likely scenario) or simply sent the message that he's fine being traded if that's what the Bulls want to do. But the initial Shams report that both sides are ready to move on clearly indicates that Zach expressed some desire to leave, even if he's being patient and professional about it. Not to mention KC Johnson continues to report that Zach would prefer to be elsewhere.

At the end of the day, I guess I'm not sure what your point is here. Zach wants out...but not super strongly? Zach wants out...but hasn't demanded a trade? These distinctions don't really matter in terms of what the Bulls should be doing moving forward, though if your point is simply that Zach's not being an a-hole, sure, I think we all would agree.

Ok. Let me try it this way. You're one of the top IT consultants in the world. A large company hires you on a 4 year contract for 3 million dollars.

After the first year, the Manager they assigned to oversee your projects decides he doesn't like your methods. He goes to the CIO that hired you with his complaints.

For the next year the company does everything they can to get to get rid of you, despite your attempts to conform your methods to the Manager's whims.

Finally, you say "fine, just let me find another company who needs my skills and will cover the income for the rest of my contract, and we can forget our agreement"

They then spread the word through the industry that you were disgruntled, didn't like the company, and wanted out of the city you were working in.

There are numerous posters on here who believe that Lavine asked out and didn't want to play in Chicago anymore, basically as if he was a traitor to Chicago sports fans. That isn't what happened.

That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less.

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[Stratmaster]

If he didn't want to be traded his agent wouldn't have said anything to management. He obviously wanted (and may still want) to be traded. I'm not blaming anyone for that (him or the team), but he very clearly and obviously was at least somewhat interested in a change of scenery.

Of course he is. But you are ignoring the context, and I will say it again since you ignored it: My point is that the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

I mean, you don't know what actually happened. He obviously wasn't a jerk and didn't make an aggressive trade demand, but he's also seemingly let people know he would be happier elsewhere. That may well be because he was sick of hearing his name in trade rumors. Maybe he wants to win. Maybe he's sick of playing second fiddle to DeMar. Perhaps the rift with Billy still bothers him. I have no idea - it could be all of the above. It's possible he's made a quiet trade request (and, IMO, seems to be the most likely scenario) or simply sent the message that he's fine being traded if that's what the Bulls want to do. But the initial Shams report that both sides are ready to move on clearly indicates that Zach expressed some desire to leave, even if he's being patient and professional about it. Not to mention KC Johnson continues to report that Zach would prefer to be elsewhere.

At the end of the day, I guess I'm not sure what your point is here. Zach wants out...but not super strongly? Zach wants out...but hasn't demanded a trade? These distinctions don't really matter in terms of what the Bulls should be doing moving forward, though if your point is simply that Zach's not being an a-hole, sure, I think we all would agree.

At the end of the day, I am not sure why people can't understand a point that I have specifically stated multiple times. You can disagree with it by citing other reports. But you can't play dumb as if you don't understand it. Let me state it one more time:

My point is that the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

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[jnrjr79]

The Zach bridge is 100% burned. The FO has made it quite clear that Donovan is their guy.

Absolutely. No one said it wasn't.

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I've seen lots of people suggest that the Bulls keep Zach rather than move him, so yes, some do seem to think the bridge has not been burned.

[jnrjr79]

Of course he is. But you are ignoring the context, and I will say it again since you ignored it: My point is that the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

I mean, you don't know what actually happened. He obviously wasn't a jerk and didn't make an aggressive trade demand, but he's also seemingly let people know he would be happier elsewhere. That may well be because he was sick of hearing his name in trade rumors. Maybe he wants to win. Maybe he's sick of playing second fiddle to DeMar. Perhaps the rift with Billy still bothers him. I have no idea - it could be all of the above. It's possible he's made a quiet trade request (and, IMO, seems to be the most likely scenario) or simply sent the message that he's fine being traded if that's what the Bulls want to do. But the initial Shams report that both sides are ready to move on clearly indicates that Zach expressed some desire to leave, even if he's being patient and professional about it. Not to mention KC Johnson continues to report that Zach would prefer to be elsewhere.

At the end of the day, I guess I'm not sure what your point is here. Zach wants out...but not super strongly? Zach wants out...but hasn't demanded a trade? These distinctions don't really matter in terms of what the Bulls should be doing moving forward, though if your point is simply that Zach's not being an a-hole, sure, I think we all would agree.

Ok. Let me try it this way. You're one of the top IT consultants in the world. A large company hires you on a 4 year contract for 3 million dollars.

After the first year, the Manager they assigned to oversee your projects decides he doesn't like your methods. He goes to the CIO that hired you with his complaints.

For the next year the company does everything they can to get to get rid of you, despite your attempts to conform your methods to the Manager's whims.

Finally, you say "fine, just let me find another company who needs my skills and will cover the income for the rest of my contract, and we can forget our agreement"

They then spread the word through the industry that you were disgruntled, didn't like the company, and wanted out of the city you were working in.

There are numerous posters on here who believe that Lavine asked out and didn't want to play in Chicago anymore, basically as if he was a traitor to Chicago sports fans. That isn't what happened.

That's all. Nothing more. Nothing less.

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I guess I'm not sure how this in any way conflicts with what I said.

[jnrjr79]

Of course he is. But you are ignoring the context, and I will say it again since you ignored it: My point is that the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

I mean, you don't know what actually happened. He obviously wasn't a jerk and didn't make an aggressive trade demand, but he's also seemingly let people know he would be happier elsewhere. That may well be because he was sick of hearing his name in trade rumors. Maybe he wants to win. Maybe he's sick of playing second fiddle to DeMar. Perhaps the rift with Billy still bothers him. I have no idea - it could be all of the above. It's possible he's made a quiet trade request (and, IMO, seems to be the most likely scenario) or simply sent the message that he's fine being traded if that's what the Bulls want to do. But the initial Shams report that both sides are ready to move on clearly indicates that Zach expressed some desire to leave, even if he's being patient and professional about it. Not to mention KC Johnson continues to report that Zach would prefer to be elsewhere.

At the end of the day, I guess I'm not sure what your point is here. Zach wants out...but not super strongly? Zach wants out...but hasn't demanded a trade? These distinctions don't really matter in terms of what the Bulls should be doing moving forward, though if your point is simply that Zach's not being an a-hole, sure, I think we all would agree.

At the end of the day, I am not sure why people can't understand a point that I have specifically stated multiple times. You can disagree with it by citing other reports. But you can't play dumb as if you don't understand it. Let me state it one more time:

My point is that the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

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Yeah, I still don't think this makes sense. It seems fairly likely that Zach asked to be traded and does not want to be in Chicago anymore. You don't even seem to dispute that. You're just saying there are good reasons he feels that way, given the various legitimate grievances you think he has with the team (coach benching, efforts to trade him, etc.). But that's just addressing why Zach wants out, not whether Zach wants out. My post specifically acknowledged all the reasons he would want out. But I don't think there's any dispute on whether he would prefer to be elsewhere and has communicated that message to the FO.

[MrSparkle]

The Zach bridge is 100% burned. The FO has made it quite clear that Donovan is their guy.

I think this is more to do with being tired of losing and being scapegoated by the Bulls then hating Donovan.

Pretty sure he doesn't like the way the Bulls are coached, doesn't like Vuc's game, and that's why he quit on the team when they were 5-14. I don't blame him in regards to Vuc. They've been a bad pairing, and Lonzo/Demar/Caruso/Javonte were the additions that made us click for 2 months, not Vuc. Still, he got the 3.5X the bags that Vuc did, and a professional making that money should keep a smile on his face and try to elevate/support his team, not pout.

I think on a personal level, they all got along about as well as possible for a group that wasn't gelling at all, WANTED to win, and lost at a really high rate, on a relatively easy schedule. But when he made the trade demand, and on top of it, the Bulls then played better, I believe Billy and AK were like "OK - time to move on," and Zach's probably like 'thank you." Unfortunately for both sides, yet another injury delayed the inevitable.

I also think that Zach and Klutch thought they could be cute and trade their way to the Lakers... but they underestimated that Austin Reaves would have a clearly higher trade value than Zach.

IMO the organization has to keep its thoughts private, but I'm sure they are all incredibly disappointed and pissed off with LaVine for the trade demand, barely a year into his giant 5y max extension that was offered without any pushback. If you're Durant or Kawhi, atleast you back that up with elite play in the worst of times (injuries or bad teammates). Zach had the worst numbers of his career.

Anyway, I'm not debating anything. Just ranting thoughts on Zach and the Bulls. I blame both sides, and I also see both sides. Honestly didn't think it would get to this. This inevitable trade (crap return) is probably going to be the nail in this FO's coffin, if not settling on a 3y deal with Demar. A cap dump would be better, but they're gonna really shoot for some 'replacement level' players that'll just bog the cap and treadmill further down (Herro/Duncan, Gabe/Rui/D'Lo, THJ/Kleiber, or is it a ripe time for 40yo Chris Paul's retirement ceremony in Chicago?). I could see CJ McCollum really fitting AK's (and Billy's) vision as well. 6'2 SG approaching 32yo - what's not to love?

[Stratmaster]

I mean, you don't know what actually happened. He obviously wasn't a jerk and didn't make an aggressive trade demand, but he's also seemingly let people know he would be happier elsewhere. That may well be because he was sick of hearing his name in trade rumors. Maybe he wants to win. Maybe he's sick of playing second fiddle to DeMar. Perhaps the rift with Billy still bothers him. I have no idea - it could be all of the above. It's possible he's made a quiet trade request (and, IMO, seems to be the most likely scenario) or simply sent the message that he's fine being traded if that's what the Bulls want to do. But the initial Shams report that both sides are ready to move on clearly indicates that Zach expressed some desire to leave, even if he's being patient and professional about it. Not to mention KC Johnson continues to report that Zach would prefer to be elsewhere.

At the end of the day, I guess I'm not sure what your point is here. Zach wants out...but not super strongly? Zach wants out...but hasn't demanded a trade? These distinctions don't really matter in terms of what the Bulls should be doing moving forward, though if your point is simply that Zach's not being an a-hole, sure, I think we all would agree.

At the end of the day, I am not sure why people can't understand a point that I have specifically stated multiple times. You can disagree with it by citing other reports. But you can't play dumb as if you don't understand it. Let me state it one more time:

My point is that the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

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Yeah, I still don't think this makes sense. It seems fairly likely that Zach asked to be traded and does not want to be in Chicago anymore. You don't even seem to dispute that. You're just saying there are good reasons he feels that way, given the various legitimate grievances you think he has with the team (coach benching, efforts to trade him, etc.). But that's just addressing why Zach wants out, not whether Zach wants out. My post specifically acknowledged all the reasons he would want out. But I don't think there's any dispute on whether he would prefer to be elsewhere and has communicated that message to the FO.

Of course, there isn't NOW. Again, the narrative being pushed ignores the history of how we got here. If you still don't get my point, then you probably shouldn't be commenting on it?

The circumstances around why a player is being moved can absolutely affect what deals are available and what you get in return for that player. The Bulls have screwed the pooch since day 1 on the Lavine situation. The narrative that protects Donovan is that Zach is a disgruntled player who was unwilling to do what was asked of him. The Bulls allowing this narrative to proliferate, even if it was true (which by all reports, it isn't), only further complicates their goal of getting a solid return for him. They continue to screw the pooch, all for a head coach who isn't very good at what he does.

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[Stratmaster]

The Zach bridge is 100% burned. The FO has made it quite clear that Donovan is their guy.

I think this is more to do with being tired of losing and being scapegoated by the Bulls then hating Donovan.

Pretty sure he doesn't like the way the Bulls are coached, doesn't like Vuc's game, and that's why he quit on the team when they were 5-14. I don't blame him in regards to Vuc. They've been a bad pairing, and Lonzo/Demar/Caruso/Javonte were the additions that made us click for 2 months, not Vuc. Still, he got the 3.5X the bags that Vuc did, and a professional making that money should keep a smile on his face and try to elevate/support his team, not pout.

I think on a personal level, they all got along about as well as possible for a group that wasn't gelling at all, WANTED to win, and lost at a really high rate, on a relatively easy schedule. But when he made the trade demand, and on top of it, the Bulls then played better, I believe Billy and AK were like "OK - time to move on," and Zach's probably like 'thank you." Unfortunately for both sides, yet another injury delayed the inevitable.

I also think that Zach and Klutch thought they could be cute and trade their way to the Lakers... but they underestimated that Austin Reaves would have a clearly higher trade value than Zach.

IMO the organization has to keep its thoughts private, but I'm sure they are all incredibly disappointed and pissed off with LaVine for the trade demand, barely a year into his giant 5y max extension that was offered without any pushback. If you're Durant or Kawhi, atleast you back that up with elite play in the worst of times (injuries or bad teammates). Zach had the worst numbers of his career.

Anyway, I'm not debating anything. Just ranting thoughts on Zach and the Bulls. I blame both sides, and I also see both sides. Honestly didn't think it would get to this. This inevitable trade (crap return) is probably going to be the nail in this FO's coffin, if not settling on a 3y deal with Demar. A cap dump would be better, but they're gonna really shoot for some 'replacement level' players that'll just bog the cap and treadmill further down (Herro/Duncan, Gabe/Rui/D'Lo, THJ/Kleiber, or is it a ripe time for 40yo Chris Paul's retirement ceremony in Chicago?). I could see CJ McCollum really fitting AK's (and Billy's) vision as well. 6'2 SG approaching 32yo - what's not to love?

He never made "a trade demand" . Billy and AK had been trying to trade him for months before Zach said anything.

This is exactly what I am talking about in my previous posts.

And the Bulls didn't play better without Lavine. Coby White went on a tear and played better; for a short while. It doesn't matter who you put on the court, the Bulls end result is the same. Which makes you wonder what the coach is doing, doesn't it? No matter the level of talent on the court, the result is the same.

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[MrSparkle]

I think this is more to do with being tired of losing and being scapegoated by the Bulls then hating Donovan.

Pretty sure he doesn't like the way the Bulls are coached, doesn't like Vuc's game, and that's why he quit on the team when they were 5-14. I don't blame him in regards to Vuc. They've been a bad pairing, and Lonzo/Demar/Caruso/Javonte were the additions that made us click for 2 months, not Vuc. Still, he got the 3.5X the bags that Vuc did, and a professional making that money should keep a smile on his face and try to elevate/support his team, not pout.

I think on a personal level, they all got along about as well as possible for a group that wasn't gelling at all, WANTED to win, and lost at a really high rate, on a relatively easy schedule. But when he made the trade demand, and on top of it, the Bulls then played better, I believe Billy and AK were like "OK - time to move on," and Zach's probably like 'thank you." Unfortunately for both sides, yet another injury delayed the inevitable.

I also think that Zach and Klutch thought they could be cute and trade their way to the Lakers... but they underestimated that Austin Reaves would have a clearly higher trade value than Zach.

IMO the organization has to keep its thoughts private, but I'm sure they are all incredibly disappointed and pissed off with LaVine for the trade demand, barely a year into his giant 5y max extension that was offered without any pushback. If you're Durant or Kawhi, atleast you back that up with elite play in the worst of times (injuries or bad teammates). Zach had the worst numbers of his career.

Anyway, I'm not debating anything. Just ranting thoughts on Zach and the Bulls. I blame both sides, and I also see both sides. Honestly didn't think it would get to this. This inevitable trade (crap return) is probably going to be the nail in this FO's coffin, if not settling on a 3y deal with Demar. A cap dump would be better, but they're gonna really shoot for some 'replacement level' players that'll just bog the cap and treadmill further down (Herro/Duncan, Gabe/Rui/D'Lo, THJ/Kleiber, or is it a ripe time for 40yo Chris Paul's retirement ceremony in Chicago?). I could see CJ McCollum really fitting AK's (and Billy's) vision as well. 6'2 SG approaching 32yo - what's not to love?

He never made "a trade demand" . Billy and AK had been trying to trade him for months before Zach said anything.

This is exactly what I am talking about in my previous posts.

And the Bulls didn't play better without Lavine. Coby White went on a tear and played better; for a short while. It doesn't matter who you put on the court, the Bulls end result is the same. Which makes you wonder what the coach is doing, doesn't it? No matter the level of talent on the court, the result is the same.

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The 2023/24 Bulls definitely played better when LaVine did not play. Chalk it up to high usage and poor performance, disgruntled chemistry, or whatever, but I don't know what there is to read into. The Bulls played like **** and clearly did not perform well with Zach. Personally I think the high-usage/iso and poor defense tipped the scale, so it wasn't 'more' his fault than Vuc or Demar's, but it didn't help that the rest of the team seemed to bond and put together a run without him. It is what it is.

A GM's job is to draft, trade and sign players. It's within their rights to explore the trade market. If the player is upset about it, that's fair. But it really isn't like the Bulls put the league on notice that they're shopping Zach. They were refusing offers. If Zach knew they were shopping him (since apparently it's open news that AK and Billy were trying to trade him), then he should've demanded the trade publicly before/during training camp).

[jnrjr79]

At the end of the day, I am not sure why people can't understand a point that I have specifically stated multiple times. You can disagree with it by citing other reports. But you can't play dumb as if you don't understand it. Let me state it one more time:

My point is that the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

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Yeah, I still don't think this makes sense. It seems fairly likely that Zach asked to be traded and does not want to be in Chicago anymore. You don't even seem to dispute that. You're just saying there are good reasons he feels that way, given the various legitimate grievances you think he has with the team (coach benching, efforts to trade him, etc.). But that's just addressing why Zach wants out, not whether Zach wants out. My post specifically acknowledged all the reasons he would want out. But I don't think there's any dispute on whether he would prefer to be elsewhere and has communicated that message to the FO.

Of course, there isn't NOW. Again, the narrative being pushed ignores the history of how we got here. If you still don't get my point, then you probably shouldn't be commenting on it?

I was trying to be polite in my framing by styling it as confusion on my end. In any event, my comment is your post conflated whether Zach wanted out for why Zach wanted out, which, in my opinion, meant it wasn't well-reasoned.

The circumstances around why a player is being moved can absolutely affect what deals are available and what you get in return for that player. The Bulls have screwed the pooch since day 1 on the Lavine situation. The narrative that protects Donovan is that Zach is a disgruntled player who was unwilling to do what was asked of him. The Bulls allowing this narrative to proliferate, even if it was true (which by all reports, it isn't), only further complicates their goal of getting a solid return for him. They continue to screw the pooch, all for a head coach who isn't very good at what he does.

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I don't think the bolded is true at all. The Donovan-LaVine rift happened because Donovan benched LaVine on an exceptionally poor shooting night, not because Donovan asked Zach to play a certain way and Zach refused. There are obviously a lot of long-held concerns that Zach is a poor defender, but those do not appear related to the rift with Billy. And Zach is a poor defender! But that seems to be more a defensive IQ issue than an effort issue and Zach has improved to some degree on that end of the floor over the years. You're objecting to a "narrative" about Zach that he's "disgruntled" and "unwilling to do what was asked of him" that the Bulls allowed to "proliferate," except that narrative doesn't actually exist in the first place.

I'm not a huge Billy guy, but I think the idea that he's somehow sullied Zach's reputation isn't really true. He's generally been (at least publicly) very supportive, including through all of last season's awkwardness after the mutual trade interest was reported.

Zach's reputation is that he's overpaid (and I guess the Bulls are somewhat responsible for that!), an extremely gifted and efficient scorer, injury-prone, and a minus on the defensive end. I do not agree that he has some reputation as a guy who resists coaching or is a diva or whatever. His market is a function of his salary, abilities, and health - all of which are objective facts and not "narrative."

[dougthonus]

Of course he is. But you are ignoring the context, and I will say it again since you ignored it: My point is that the narrative that Lavine was unhappy and "asked to be traded" or "didn't want to be in Chicago" is far, far, far from what actually happened.

What do you think the narrative was? Zach was super happy in Chicago but asked to be traded?

I mean there might be layers to how unhappy he was or what he was unhappy with exactly, but he clearly asked to be traded and wanted to be traded and would not have done so if he was happy to be here and wanted to stay.