2024 NBA Draft - DA BULLS Edition Pick #11

[prolific passer]

Ah yes, Pax the GM chess master. His playoff results are astounding.

Better than akme.

The jury is still out on AKME, as much as they've faltered recently. My biggest gripe with AKME, isn't their lack of moves per se, but more so that after making quick and decisive moves to build the roster (which was a positive), when it failed due to a pivotal cog (Ball) in making this team work went down with injury, they were looking for bandaid fixes instead of pivoting when they knew the severity of Ball's injury. Paxson had some really shocking moments himself, but had some really good periods also. I'll tell you one thing for certain, there is no way that Paxson or Gar would have drafted Patrick, just due to his passive personality alone.

Point being, it didn't take them long to rebuild this roster and reshape the franchise in less than a year, so they have the potential to do it again if they choose to, I'm just not confident that they will actually go that route, and continue to work on the fringes, which all signs are pointing to that happening. But let's see, this off season is going to be huge for this front office.

Yeah. I think the confidence in akme and ak in general when it comes to trying to fix the team is at an all time low. Only time will tell if they can improve on that but I doubt they will.

[boozapalooza]

Paxson got way more time because he earned it by drafting extremely well early and then maintaining a strong draft record throughout his career. When he stepped back Gar struggled a little with the draft relative to Paxson. But there is no comparison. AK has hit on one pick and it was an obvious second rounder that fell into his lap. Don’t get me wrong, he still gets full credit for actually taking him. But my point is it’s his only hit and it’s not like it was some farsighted creative one to be weighed heavily.

In a 17 year career Paxon hit on 3 players outside of the top 10. Gibson in 2009. Butler in 2011. Portis in 2015. He also thought taking Denzel Valentine and Doug McDermott were good ideas despite having zero NBA upside. It's not hard in an almost 20 year career to hit on a few top 10 picks. He missed way more then he hit. Probably a C+ at drafting and a D+ at team building.

When it comes to 1st rounders, GarPax technically had 6 stinkers:
Teague
Snell
McDermott
Hutchison
Valentine
Johnson

Compared to 11 solid picks:
Rose
Deng
Hinrich
Gordon
Noah
Gibson
Portis
White
WCJ
Butler
Markkanen

That's a good track record. Some may argue James Johnson was a solid pick too. If you add in the 2nd rounders, things will look disappointing but 2nd rounders have a very low success rate no matter who's at the helm.

Wheres Tyrus Thomas? How is WCJ a solid pick? And Rose at #1 was a no brainer, I’m not giving them credit for getting 1.7% lucky in the lotto. Pretty generous of you.

That 2018 draft was loaded and we had two 1sts. We took WCJ ahead of Shai, Mikal, MPJ. Then at 22 promised Hutchison we’d take him at the combine and did so ahead of Brunson and a number of other solid players. That draft set us back a decade, given WCJ not being that good led us to the Vuc deal.

GarPax sucked bad, Thibs brought them success and then ran him out of town for it, theres no need to look back on them with fondness

[MrSparkle]

Ah yes, Pax the GM chess master. His playoff results are astounding.

Better than akme.

The jury is still out on AKME, as much as they've faltered recently. My biggest gripe with AKME, isn't their lack of moves per se, but more so that after making quick and decisive moves to build the roster (which was a positive), when it failed due to a pivotal cog (Ball) in making this team work went down with injury, they were looking for bandaid fixes instead of pivoting when they knew the severity of Ball's injury. Paxson had some really shocking moments himself, but had some really good periods also. I'll tell you one thing for certain, there is no way that Paxson or Gar would have drafted Patrick, just due to his passive personality alone.

Point being, it didn't take them long to rebuild this roster and reshape the franchise in less than a year, so they have the potential to do it again if they choose to, I'm just not confident that they will actually go that route, and continue to work on the fringes, which all signs are pointing to that happening. But let's see, this off season is going to be huge for this front office.

Snell? Teague?

But it’s true. They generally valued edge. And Iowa..

My big gripe since even the promising debut with Lonzo, was that the team was a bunch of nice guys. Caruso and Pat got their wrists broken on dirty plays within 3 months of each other and nobody was ready to thrown down or even get in anybody’s face. That to me was alarming. Even Curry went for a nut punch (in a pre season game, at that).

Our toughest guy is the smallest guy on the team. AK needs to seriously re-examine the way he judges competitiveness. Demar’s tough, but unfortunately just when he has the ball in his hands. The rest of the team is like the mickey mouse club. The twolves would eat these bulls for breakfast.

[R3AL1TY]

In a 17 year career Paxon hit on 3 players outside of the top 10. Gibson in 2009. Butler in 2011. Portis in 2015. He also thought taking Denzel Valentine and Doug McDermott were good ideas despite having zero NBA upside. It's not hard in an almost 20 year career to hit on a few top 10 picks. He missed way more then he hit. Probably a C+ at drafting and a D+ at team building.

When it comes to 1st rounders, GarPax technically had 6 stinkers:
Teague
Snell
McDermott
Hutchison
Valentine
Johnson

Compared to 11 solid picks:
Rose
Deng
Hinrich
Gordon
Noah
Gibson
Portis
White
WCJ
Butler
Markkanen

That's a good track record. Some may argue James Johnson was a solid pick too. If you add in the 2nd rounders, things will look disappointing but 2nd rounders have a very low success rate no matter who's at the helm.

Wheres Tyrus Thomas? How is WCJ a solid pick? And Rose at #1 was a no brainer, I’m not giving them credit for getting 1.7% lucky in the lotto. Pretty generous of you.

That 2018 draft was loaded and we had two 1sts. We took WCJ ahead of Shai, Mikal, MPJ. Then at 22 promised Hutchison we’d take him at the combine and did so ahead of Brunson and a number of other solid players. That draft set us back a decade, given WCJ not being that good led us to the Vuc deal.

GarPax sucked bad, Thibs brought them success and then ran him out of town for it, theres no need to look back on them with fondness

I forgot about that Tyrus for Larmarcus swap. That brings them down to a low C rethinking that one. I still wouldn't say they sucked bad when it came to drafting but they made huge mistakes when they traded picks.

[Dan Z]

In a 17 year career Paxon hit on 3 players outside of the top 10. Gibson in 2009. Butler in 2011. Portis in 2015. He also thought taking Denzel Valentine and Doug McDermott were good ideas despite having zero NBA upside. It's not hard in an almost 20 year career to hit on a few top 10 picks. He missed way more then he hit. Probably a C+ at drafting and a D+ at team building.

When it comes to 1st rounders, GarPax technically had 6 stinkers:
Teague
Snell
McDermott
Hutchison
Valentine
Johnson

Compared to 11 solid picks:
Rose
Deng
Hinrich
Gordon
Noah
Gibson
Portis
White
WCJ
Butler
Markkanen

That's a good track record. Some may argue James Johnson was a solid pick too. If you add in the 2nd rounders, things will look disappointing but 2nd rounders have a very low success rate no matter who's at the helm.

Wheres Tyrus Thomas? How is WCJ a solid pick? And Rose at #1 was a no brainer, I’m not giving them credit for getting 1.7% lucky in the lotto. Pretty generous of you.

That 2018 draft was loaded and we had two 1sts. We took WCJ ahead of Shai, Mikal, MPJ. Then at 22 promised Hutchison we’d take him at the combine and did so ahead of Brunson and a number of other solid players. That draft set us back a decade, given WCJ not being that good led us to the Vuc deal.

GarPax sucked bad, Thibs brought them success and then ran him out of town for it, theres no need to look back on them with fondness

What year did Paxson take a step back and Gar made more decisions? Or is that unknown?

I agree that they didn't do good in the 2018 draft and was surprised that they didn't pick Mikal Bridges. The other issue is that they didn't do a good job of developing the players that they had. Once they got rid of Hoiberg they stuck with Boylen for too long.

[DorO]

I think the best player is Salaun and it is weird he is not in top5 pick conversations. If he is available then it will be a no-brainer for Bulls to pick him. He dwarfed Risacher in french league game and I can see low ceiling Risacher trending higher than Salaun, just unbelievable.

[DuckIII]

Ah yes, Pax the GM chess master. His playoff results are astounding.

Better than akme.

The jury is still out on AKME

No it’s not. It doesn’t matter anymore that he turned the team around quickly and had us playing (genuinely) competitive ball for 50 games. Since then he has failed so miserably, so colossally, with so much easily predictable stupidity, that nothing he did before could ever overcome it.

Moreover, even if he does finally start to rebuild this summer two critical things will be true: (a) it will be because it was forced on him by DDR, not because he wanted to do it; and (b) it’s still way too late and the amount of damage done by the delay is massive.

He is the worst GM in the NBA right now. And if he’s not the absolute worst, he’s certainly a finalist. He’s a disaster.

By the time we recover AK’s tenure will cost the Bulls a decade.

[Jcool0]

Better than akme.

The jury is still out on AKME

No it’s not. It doesn’t matter anymore that he turned the team around quickly and had us playing (genuinely) competitive ball for 50 games. Since then he has failed so miserably, so colossally, with so much easily predictable stupidity, that nothing he did before could ever overcome it.

Moreover, even if he does finally start to rebuild this summer two critical things will be true: (a) it will be because it was forced on him by DDR, not because he wanted to do it; and (b) it’s still way too late and the amount of damage done by the delay is massive.

He is the worst GM in the NBA right now. And if he’s not the absolute worst, he’s certainly a finalist. He’s a disaster.

By the time we recover AK’s tenure will cost the Bulls a decade.

I am not the biggest AK fan and probably would move on from him but he isn't the worse GM in the league. I can kind of get why he was reluctant to move on. What was it like a month ago the Bulls were relatively healthy and record was almost at a 60% win percentage after that disastrous start. i was like "was AK right all along????" but then went 4-7 during a very winnable stretch to end the year and you got brought back to reality of nope not a good team.

[jnrjr79]

Edey looks like a better version of Tacko Fall but he's still not fast enough to get more than 15 mins of playing time in the NBA.

People keep saying this despite the fact that Edey was faster at the combine than a lot of other productive NBA players. Maybe it won't translate to the court, but it's a bit confusing.

[jnrjr79]

I'm gonna cut AK some slack since GarPax had way more time. But if he can't get another good pick after Ayo these next 2 years, then he either needs to hire better scouts or move on from his job.

Paxson got way more time because he earned it by drafting extremely well early and then maintaining a strong draft record throughout his career. When he stepped back Gar struggled a little with the draft relative to Paxson. But there is no comparison. AK has hit on one pick and it was an obvious second rounder that fell into his lap. Don’t get me wrong, he still gets full credit for actually taking him. But my point is it’s his only hit and it’s not like it was some farsighted creative one to be weighed heavily.

In a 17 year career Paxon hit on 3 players outside of the top 10. Gibson in 2009. Butler in 2011. Portis in 2015. He also thought taking Denzel Valentine and Doug McDermott were good ideas despite having zero NBA upside. It's not hard in an almost 20 year career to hit on a few top 10 picks. He missed way more then he hit. Probably a C+ at drafting and a D+ at team building.

Pax was the GM from 2003 to 2009, not for 17 years. One presumes Gar had the primary drafting responsibilities after Pax took a step back.

In 7 seasons, Pax only had 3 draft picks outside the top 10, but still in the first round. Those were 2006 (Rodney Carney), 2009 (James Johnson), and 2009 (Taj Gibson). That's pretty good!

[BigUps]

Edey looks like a better version of Tacko Fall but he's still not fast enough to get more than 15 mins of playing time in the NBA.

People keep saying this despite the fact that Edey was faster at the combine than a lot of other productive NBA players. Maybe it won't translate to the court, but it's a bit confusing.

He had a good workout, but the speed he showed in his workout isn't seen on the court. He can not defend an NBA PnR offense. He couldn't do it in college, there's no way he can in the NBA. Don't get enamored with his height and workout numbers.

[Jcool0]

Paxson got way more time because he earned it by drafting extremely well early and then maintaining a strong draft record throughout his career. When he stepped back Gar struggled a little with the draft relative to Paxson. But there is no comparison. AK has hit on one pick and it was an obvious second rounder that fell into his lap. Don’t get me wrong, he still gets full credit for actually taking him. But my point is it’s his only hit and it’s not like it was some farsighted creative one to be weighed heavily.

In a 17 year career Paxon hit on 3 players outside of the top 10. Gibson in 2009. Butler in 2011. Portis in 2015. He also thought taking Denzel Valentine and Doug McDermott were good ideas despite having zero NBA upside. It's not hard in an almost 20 year career to hit on a few top 10 picks. He missed way more then he hit. Probably a C+ at drafting and a D+ at team building.

Pax was the GM from 2003 to 2009, not for 17 years. One presumes Gar had the primary drafting responsibilities after Pax took a step back.

In 7 seasons, Pax only had 3 draft picks outside the top 10, but still in the first round. Those were 2006 (Rodney Carney), 2009 (James Johnson), and 2009 (Taj Gibson). That's pretty good!

The only reason Paxon moved to the VP role was so he didn't have to deal with the media (who he hated) he was still in charge of the team & primarily making all the picks and signings.

[jnrjr79]

In a 17 year career Paxon hit on 3 players outside of the top 10. Gibson in 2009. Butler in 2011. Portis in 2015. He also thought taking Denzel Valentine and Doug McDermott were good ideas despite having zero NBA upside. It's not hard in an almost 20 year career to hit on a few top 10 picks. He missed way more then he hit. Probably a C+ at drafting and a D+ at team building.

Pax was the GM from 2003 to 2009, not for 17 years. One presumes Gar had the primary drafting responsibilities after Pax took a step back.

In 7 seasons, Pax only had 3 draft picks outside the top 10, but still in the first round. Those were 2006 (Rodney Carney), 2009 (James Johnson), and 2009 (Taj Gibson). That's pretty good!

The only reason Paxon moved to the VP role was so he didn't have to deal with the media (who he hated) he was still in charge of the team & primarily making all the picks and signings.

I didn't realize you worked in the Bulls' FO back then and have inside knowledge of the division of labor. Very helpful!

Funnily, if you count the Gar years, the argument probably gets better in Pax's favor. You'd have hits on Gafford, Portis, and Butler - hitting on 30% of late firsts is not that bad, and obviously Butler is one of the best late picks in a generation.

[Jcool0]

Pax was the GM from 2003 to 2009, not for 17 years. One presumes Gar had the primary drafting responsibilities after Pax took a step back.

In 7 seasons, Pax only had 3 draft picks outside the top 10, but still in the first round. Those were 2006 (Rodney Carney), 2009 (James Johnson), and 2009 (Taj Gibson). That's pretty good!

The only reason Paxon moved to the VP role was so he didn't have to deal with the media (who he hated) he was still in charge of the team & primarily making all the picks and signings.

I didn't realize you worked in the Bulls' FO back then and have inside knowledge of the division of labor. Very helpful!

Funnily, if you count the Gar years, the argument probably gets better in Pax's favor. You'd have hits on Gafford, Portis, and Butler - hitting on 30% of late firsts is not that bad, and obviously Butler is one of the best late picks in a generation.

I mean it was pretty well know at the time. I guess you weren't following the Bulls then.

[MrSparkle]

Better than akme.

The jury is still out on AKME

No it’s not. It doesn’t matter anymore that he turned the team around quickly and had us playing (genuinely) competitive ball for 50 games. Since then he has failed so miserably, so colossally, with so much easily predictable stupidity, that nothing he did before could ever overcome it.

Moreover, even if he does finally start to rebuild this summer two critical things will be true: (a) it will be because it was forced on him by DDR, not because he wanted to do it; and (b) it’s still way too late and the amount of damage done by the delay is massive.

He is the worst GM in the NBA right now. And if he’s not the absolute worst, he’s certainly a finalist. He’s a disaster.

By the time we recover AK’s tenure will cost the Bulls a decade.

I think this is dramatic. 2 years of tanking and winning the lotteries could put you on a contention path. If he dumps Demar, lets Drummond walk and plays Vuc 40 mpg, the team is probably close to a tank job. We do own all our future top-4 picks.

I’m as down on AK as anybody, but we’re not a decade done in damage. Phoenix and Brooklyn are in bigger trouble.

This said, AK’s management is due for a 2010s Knicks style treadmill. So unless he pivots, we are going to see a fringe 2nd round appearance at best. Which TBF, would be exactly on par with Paxson’s GM resume.

[MrSparkle]

Edey looks like a better version of Tacko Fall but he's still not fast enough to get more than 15 mins of playing time in the NBA.

People keep saying this despite the fact that Edey was faster at the combine than a lot of other productive NBA players. Maybe it won't translate to the court, but it's a bit confusing.

He had a good workout, but the speed he showed in his workout isn't seen on the court. He can not defend an NBA PnR offense. He couldn't do it in college, there's no way he can in the NBA. Don't get enamored with his height and workout numbers.

Yeah, and McDermott is another case of a guy who measured very well at the combine (boosted his stock in fact), but then couldn’t move his feet nearly as well as an injured post-prime Dunleavy.

I’m not a college fanatic, but i watched a handful of Edey games and can confirm that the guy will be a defensive liability. However, if you build around him (Carusos and Jimmys and KCPs and Jrues), you can have a great defense. He’s an interesting prospect. I really think there’s no way of telling for sure how he pans. If he hits the NBA with sky high confidence and shoots midrange jumpers and his baby hooks at high efficiency, basically guaranteed bucket or foul, then of course everybody cries about the one who got away. If he can’t hit a jumpshot with a hand in his face, then you’ve got an antiquated low post C with bad feet.

Some guys just fail spectacularly (Bamba, Wiseman, Bol), unless vet min 25yos are considered a successful pick. These 3 had poor college resumes, and a lot more promise/hype. (Bol dropped of course with injuries and question marks)

Ayton is a strange case of a 20/10 big who nobody wants. Seems like attitude does go a long way. Needs to be willing to work intensely on whatever will make him succeed in the NBA (shooting and lateral movement).

Strength, length and weight do help.

[jnrjr79]

The only reason Paxon moved to the VP role was so he didn't have to deal with the media (who he hated) he was still in charge of the team & primarily making all the picks and signings.

I didn't realize you worked in the Bulls' FO back then and have inside knowledge of the division of labor. Very helpful!

Funnily, if you count the Gar years, the argument probably gets better in Pax's favor. You'd have hits on Gafford, Portis, and Butler - hitting on 30% of late firsts is not that bad, and obviously Butler is one of the best late picks in a generation.

I mean it was pretty well know at the time. I guess you weren't following the Bulls then.

Lol, sure thing.

[Guru]

Ah yes, Pax the GM chess master. His playoff results are astounding.

Better than akme.

The jury is still out on AKME, as much as they've faltered recently. My biggest gripe with AKME, isn't their lack of moves per se, but more so that after making quick and decisive moves to build the roster (which was a positive), when it failed due to a pivotal cog (Ball) in making this team work went down with injury, they were looking for bandaid fixes instead of pivoting when they knew the severity of Ball's injury. Paxson had some really shocking moments himself, but had some really good periods also. I'll tell you one thing for certain, there is no way that Paxson or Gar would have drafted Patrick, just due to his passive personality alone.

Point being, it didn't take them long to rebuild this roster and reshape the franchise in less than a year, so they have the potential to do it again if they choose to, I'm just not confident that they will actually go that route, and continue to work on the fringes, which all signs are pointing to that happening. But let's see, this off season is going to be huge for this front office.

Lonzo Ball has been the biggest issue.

[Jcool0]

I didn't realize you worked in the Bulls' FO back then and have inside knowledge of the division of labor. Very helpful!

Funnily, if you count the Gar years, the argument probably gets better in Pax's favor. You'd have hits on Gafford, Portis, and Butler - hitting on 30% of late firsts is not that bad, and obviously Butler is one of the best late picks in a generation.

I mean it was pretty well know at the time. I guess you weren't following the Bulls then.

Lol, sure thing.

"John Paxson was promoted to vice president of basketball operations in 2009 and Gar Forman was named general manager.

Paxson wanted a better work-life balance and apparently did not enjoy parts of the general manager job, especially working with the media and agents. In 2010 he infamously got into an altercation with Vinny Del Negro, grabbing his coach by the tie in an argument over a minutes limit for Joakim Noah. Paxson also grew more combative with the media as the years went on and the criticism grew."

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2020/04/18/john-paxson-has-a-long-and-complicated-history-with-the-chicago-bulls-a-look-back-at-his-35-seasons-with-the-franchise/

[jnrjr79]

I mean it was pretty well know at the time. I guess you weren't following the Bulls then.

Lol, sure thing.

"John Paxson was promoted to vice president of basketball operations in 2009 and Gar Forman was named general manager.

Paxson wanted a better work-life balance and apparently did not enjoy parts of the general manager job, especially working with the media and agents. In 2010 he infamously got into an altercation with Vinny Del Negro, grabbing his coach by the tie in an argument over a minutes limit for Joakim Noah. Paxson also grew more combative with the media as the years went on and the criticism grew."

https://www.chicagotribune.com/2020/04/18/john-paxson-has-a-long-and-complicated-history-with-the-chicago-bulls-a-look-back-at-his-35-seasons-with-the-franchise/

This is not responsive to my point, but thanks for sharing.

It is widely known that Paxson wanted a more behind-the-scenes role. What isn't known is exactly who had the biggest voice on draft pick selection, which was the point I made. I don't care why he changed his role, because it doesn't matter for purposes of this discussion. And even if Paxson remained the primary draft guy, his overall track record is still very sold. It was all the other aspects of the Paxson experience (trades, FA signings) that were frustrating. The draft is the one thing he performed really well in, which is what makes this particular critique so bizarre.